Basketball Recruiting: will this year's success have an impact?
Like many on the board, I am waiting for tomorrow's game with Oklahoma State. While waiting, one thing I am interested in is the potential impact this season has on recruiting.
It has been said by many that Michigan is a tier 2 basketball school, and that it will never compete on the level of North Carolina, Kentucky, Duke, UCLA, Louisville, Villanova. I'd like to know: why not? I understand that there is a history at those schools. But why not build a new history here? There was an article I read about the high quality of Michigan's strength and conditioning program for basketball. Camp Sanderson has made a difference. Beilein also has received significant national praise for his coaching acumen. Does this matter at all?
It has been said that Beilein will never have real recruiting success until he "gets his hands dirty." Is it absolutely necessary to be corrupt and to pay players off in order to attract the best players?
It has been said that one and done guys want to play a different style of ball, and that Beilein's schemes are too boring, too cerebral, too difficult.
It has been said that Beilein has no connection with high school coaches in Detroit and Chicago, areas with significant amounts of talent. That AAU and Club coaches and HS coaches steer kids away from Michigan. Is this true? Can this be changed?
Let's look at several players.
- Brian Bowen, 5 star forward out of Saginaw, best player in Michigan in 2017, #15 in country, considering MSU, 'Zona, UCLA. He eliminated Michigan from consideration.
- Mohamed Bamba, 5 star center out of Harlem, 7'1", #3 player in the country in 2017, considering Duke, Kentucky, Michigan. Widely thought to be interested only in KY and Duke, a strong possibility of a one and done.
- Romeo Langford, 5 star guard out of Indiana, #3 in 2018, considering Duke, KU, NC, KY, IN, Louisville, Purdue, UCLA. Not a Michigan target at all.
- Ayo Dosunmu, 4 star PG out of Chicago, top 50 in 2018, considering Illinois, NW, among others, not looking at Michigan.
All of these guys are in Michigan's footprint. Adding a couple of them could make a huge difference. Right now, that doesn't seem to be in the cards.
(I won't look at 2019 because Michigan doesn't put offers out that early. There are two 5 star guys from Michigan . . . . Weems and Armstrong.)
Others have done the research, but it has been suggested that to win the tourney, it is almost a necessity to have a couple NBA caliber kids on your team. It doesn't seem Michigan is quite there yet. Will this year's success cause a couple high level kids to take another look at Michigan? Or is that just wishful thinking that ain't gonna happen?
March 16th, 2017 at 11:55 AM ^
March 16th, 2017 at 12:03 PM ^
First of all, implying you have to be dirty to sign 5 star players is just flat out wrong. Jim Harbaugh manages just fine and I think Beilein would too. However he does not like recruiting 5 stars and one and dones. In fact the last two 5 five stars he has recruited (Brown and bamba) ASKED to be recruited. Second of all why would anyone willingly be OK with their program essentially ignoring the top 25 players every single year, especially at a school like Michigan? I'm not saying Beilein needs to recruit a team full of one and dones, but imagine how more dangerous this team would be right now if it had a Luke Kennard or Tyus Battle on it.
Michigan's played good ball this last month, but you aren't beating the UNC's, UK's, Duke's, etc of the world consistently without first round NBA talent.
March 16th, 2017 at 12:06 PM ^
Where were you on the board this last week?
March 16th, 2017 at 12:09 PM ^
Not everyone's life revolves around this blog like yours does.
March 16th, 2017 at 12:10 PM ^
You sure were loud and making threads when losses were happening.
March 16th, 2017 at 12:20 PM ^
I was at a funeral this past weekend you fucking asshole. And just because I've been critical of Beilein in the past (and deservedly so) doesn't mean I don't want to see the team succeed and him do well. Your superfan act of calling out other people who share a difference of opinion with you is getting old. I don't care that you never went to UM, but I do find it highly ironic you keep trying to front someone who did. Not everyone lives their life from behind their keyboard, you should try it sometime.
March 16th, 2017 at 12:25 PM ^
wait, wd didn't go to michigan? I don't really care either way, asking for a friend.
He does not. Too much time policing what people say on this blog and not enough time studying apparently.
March 16th, 2017 at 12:32 PM ^
you lose.
Fucking A.
March 16th, 2017 at 12:58 PM ^
No more fucking asshole comments!
- The MGoBlog Mom
Attacking Belein and WD over his keyboard consistently.... Nice....
In response to Maizen's comment
This really is the fringe lunatic 1% of the fanbase because I've never seen so many people eat their own like Michigan fans. Heaven forbid people aren't nut hugging this program 24/7.
Maybe you are just a hater and feed on the bad times on this blog. You seem like that type of person to me, just an observation. You are welcome to keep posting though, I enjoy the comments where WD makes you eat crow almost as much as the actual content here.
Good thing I don't need your permission to keep posting or give a fuck what you think. Cheers.
Oh wow, here you are again, "not giving a fuck" what people think while having an unhinged rampage against those people. Seek help.
Says the confused simpleton who can't decide if he's a UNC or Michigan fan. Seek help.
March 16th, 2017 at 12:44 PM ^
You sure were a steady presence around this blog during and after every basketball loss.
March 16th, 2017 at 12:42 PM ^
If we are going to compare different sports, you might as well bring up how great our recruiting is in softball, gymnastics, and swimming!
There is a lot of money in AAU basketball. There is a lot of money in NCAA basketball recruiting. To deny that fact is to deny that there is oxygen in air.
Sure, there are exceptions to that rule every now and then. But they are rare enough that Beilein does not waste his effort on it unless there is initial interest from the player. And getting a random one-and-done player does not help programs much. You have to recruit 4 or 5 EVERY YEAR for that system to work. If you think you can do that without being dirty, then be my guest.
Beilein is a GREAT coach. He has established what works for him over decades. I am perfectly happy to let him do his thing and proudly represent this great institution.
March 16th, 2017 at 12:24 PM ^
Maizen, I appreciate your thoughtful reply. I realize there isn't always a level playing field, but I do hope that Michigan works to recruit higher level talent. I agree that it will be difficult to beat elite teams without elite talent.
I do wish there were a few more kids that were willing to be two years and out. It just seems unlikely that most first year players can master what Beilein wants in year one.
You mentioned Luke Kennard, who would certainly make a huge difference. This is his second year, so he would fit that two years and out model. IIRC, Beilein did make a strong effort to recruit Kennard. Am I wrong about that? He did a fine job at Duke as a Freshman, but really emerged as a star in 2016-2017. I guess to restate my question: is there a reason Beilein didn't get Kennard, or isn't getting players like Kennard? (Or is he getting them.)
My point with Kennard, and maybe with Bamba, is that I don't think Beilein necessarily avoids top 25 players. They just have to want to be at Michigan, and they have to be a good fit for what he wants to do. Looking at the current team, the fact that all five guys can hit 3 point shots makes a difference. If you have a great post player who isn't nimble enough to defend far out, and isn't able to hit threes, it changes what you can do on offense significantly.
March 16th, 2017 at 12:35 PM ^
My point with Kennard, and maybe with Bamba, is that I don't think Beilein necessarily avoids top 25 players.
He doesn't avoid top players. Beilein has recruited many 5-star players over the years. Maizen would have you believe that he goes to the local YMCA to find recruits.
How many has he landed in 10 years, or are we giving ribbons for trying and failing now.
iirc, McGary was ranked pretty high. Not sure on Glenn Robinson or THJ. I think those would be the top three recruits. Obviously, if Bamba came to Michigan, it would change the equation, at least a bit.
both top 50ish i believe
You really are a pleasant person.
March 16th, 2017 at 12:16 PM ^
Football is different thank Basketball, and I think it's generally accepted that Basketball dirtiness is way deeper and more systemic, with AAU and all that. And while you don't have to be dirty to get 5 stars in Football by any means, well...*looks at Ole Miss*... it sure doesn't hurt. I think Beilein's unwillingness to play the dirty recruiting game is a good thing, even if it does cost us elite talent occasionally.
Football and basketball are very different. Basketball is dirtier, and one-and-done creates a totally different path for superstar hoops players.
Additionally, Michigan will never have the cache for basketball that it does for football. People in Lexington and Chapel Hill are absolutely crazy about college hoops - there simply isn't that level of support here.
Here's something to ponder: Since 1980, only 5 times has a school that isn't known primarily for hoops won the tournament (Florida 2x, Michigan, MSU and Arkansas - that's it).
"Basketball schools" have won the tournament 32 of the last 37 years!
While it's true that perennial powers always have 2-3 (or even more) future draft picks on their roster, it's definitely possible to win the tournament, and common to make the Final Four, without top draft picks on the roster. Last year's 'nova and 2014 UConn are recent examples.
Michigan's current team has 2 or 3 potential NBA guys - that's enough talent to win the tournament, though both Wilson and Wagner aren't finished products yet.
March 16th, 2017 at 12:18 PM ^
Beilien went hard after both Kennard and Battle. I'm not sure what your point is.
March 16th, 2017 at 12:45 PM ^
His point is he hates John Beilein.
Actually that's not my point but I'm not surprised a simpleton like yourself reached that conclusion.
Lashing out at everyone cause you're mad inside ain't a good look.
you literally
do.
not.
post.
anything that doesn't complain about beilein. how in the world would anyone not reach that conclusion?
i believe JB tried hard for him too. and Leaf at UCLA. heuter would have been a perfect fit; a more skilled version of duncan robinson.
March 16th, 2017 at 12:19 PM ^
No idea what you are talking about. BBall recruiting for top 30 players is extremely dirty. I know first hand. Coach K at Duke is one of the dirtiest coaches around in having his bagmen paying kids under the table. You're clueless.
March 16th, 2017 at 12:30 PM ^
I don't doubt what you say, but I do have several questions.
- Do you know of any bagmen type articles out there that focus on basketball rather than football recruiting?
- Do you think paying players up front (as Brian has suggested) would help, or would it make no real difference? (i.e., the Bagmen at corrupt schools would still pay, so athletes would just get more.)
- Any idea, given what you say, why Bamba, or McGary, for that matter, were interested in Michigan? IIRC, McGary could easily have gone to Duke. And why would Bamba reach out to Michigan? Is he just clueless too?
- So is payola the real reason Kennard went to Duke instead of Michigan? I wouldn't have thought that.
- Are there some gray areas where Michigan could loosen up and make it easier to recruit 5 star talent, or is it just impossible, given the culture at Michigan?
were good friends and roomates at aau, iirc. GRIII committed first; mcgary followed.
March 16th, 2017 at 12:51 PM ^
Would love to hear about how you "know firsthand."
Is this a masturbation reference?
March 16th, 2017 at 12:50 PM ^
You can't compare us getting 5 star players in football with getting 5 star players in basketball. You stated that Harbaugh manages just fine in regards to getting 5 star players.
Jim Harbaugh has a built in advantage over Coach B in some things that revolve around recruiting, because our pedigree and history is totally different in college football.
To your point, Harbaugh has coached at the NFL level, Beilein has not coached in the NBA. Harbaugh has sent top talent to the NFL (Luck), Beilein has not done the same in the NBA.
As you mentioned the football program has had way more success than the basketball program.
I think Beilein's appeal would be more to kids and/or parents looking for coaches that are good at coaching, have integrity, are at a school that offers a top tier education.
JB is one of the best teachers. if you want to improve your game, especially nba style, i don't see why more kids don't consider UM.
March 16th, 2017 at 12:46 PM ^
So Beilein had to have recruited him. In fact, Battle's committment forced out Langford who was really high on us.
Langford was not forced out. Beilein passed on Langford after Battle committed because he didn't want to oversign by 1. It was an epic blunder because later Ibi Watson ended up signing and Michigan was still over the limit by one.
Because Beilein changed his mind on his oversigning policy halfway thru the recruiting cycle. Sam Webb has discussed the Langford recruitment at nauseum on his morning radio show specifically in regards to how Beilein changed his "oversigning" policy after the Battle/Langford fiasco.
It was similiar to the time when Brady Hoke turned away Ethan Pocic because he was only going to take 5 OL in his recruiting class, changed his mind halfway thru the cycle, then ended up signing Dan Samuelson to make it 6.
Bottom line, you don't turn away 5 star players when they want to come. There is attrition every year and you find a way to make room for great players. Beilein appears to have finally learned this lesson, but only after it cost him a McDonalds All American.
March 16th, 2017 at 12:56 PM ^
absolutely nothing like basketball recruiting. They really aren't comparable at all. Secondly, he has recruited top 25 guys who have chosen to go elsewhere.
Yay, it's Captain Concern Troll.