February 4th, 2017 at 8:27 PM ^
While I think Beilein should be finished after the season, I don't get the animosity toward him. He's a good guy, but unlike when you're saying that about someone like Brady Hoke, he actually accomplished some great things at Michigan. He took the program to heights it hadn't been in a long time and he deserves credit for that. Yeah, he wasn't able to sustain it, but this should be an amicable separation and there's no need to bag on the guy.
February 4th, 2017 at 8:33 PM ^
He's one of the ten highest paid coaches in college basketball. He's been to the second weekend of the tournament twice in a decade. People have a right to bag on that. I don't care how "nice of a guy" he is.
February 4th, 2017 at 8:34 PM ^
Perspective. Drink it in.
February 4th, 2017 at 8:39 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 8:48 PM ^
The harsh words and hysterical overreaction (not to mention the shots at Warde, who is in year one of the job) undermine a lot of the argument for Beilein's dismissal here, in my opinion. I understand this is the Fire Beilein snowflake thread, but the hyperbole is just over the top. Makes me wonder how rational this really is.
Don't get me wrong, I'm open to arguments about why a coach should be fired in the first season his team missed the tournament after a reasonably successful run of tournament appearances, including a fair number of wins and, you know, some incredible deep runs.
But people who suggest that he has no idea what he's doing genuinely mysify me. It's possible to know what you're doing and still need to be let go. The idea that Beilein, who is a brilliant offensive mind (and, it should be said, whose offense is statistically perfectly fine this year) doesn't have a clue about basketball offense is hogwash.
One could argue that this player mix makes the offense too high variance without someone that can reliably drive and score in the paint (Beilein certainly deserves criticism for the personnel that have come through since the FF run). One can certainly argue that his defensive work has been bad, or that he isn't adjusting to modern basketball theory on how he rotates players, or that he doesn't coach his players to be tough enough.
The anger and the rage feels good, but it makes for poor arguments. I appreciate the more level-headed voices. Their suggestion that a change needs to be seriously considered after the season are far more persuasive than hysterical flaming.
February 4th, 2017 at 9:18 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 9:25 PM ^
I don't dislike you the way a lot of others do, WD. I think you're fun and I appreciate your passion. I even like the apparel threads.
But your unending vendetta against Warde Manuel for existing is one of the most irrational repeated positions on this board.
February 4th, 2017 at 9:35 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 9:51 PM ^
Love ya, man, but you're overreacting to DB and, IMO, to your own (real) role in his demise. And, in fact, demanding the wrong things. You are demanding that Warde make decisive action, without any clear idea of what that action should be. DB regularly took decisive action while being either ignorant or deliberately contemptuous of the impact of those actions. If anything, he was too involved, too active, and not reflective enough. DB did in fact force a lot of coaches out, or so we're told.
You are basically demanding the same of Warde and sabotaging any credibility you have to criticize him by attacking him in rather cruel terms so early on. You're basically blaming him for this basketball team ahead of time (if he actually fires Beilein that won't satisfy you, since you are so convinced that he's wrong that any action you agree with is just "catching up" anyway) and, without evidence, holding him solely responsible for a losing hockey team.
Meanwhile, he's spending most of his time out of the limelight, making the multi-million dollar bureacracy of the athletic department hum along, keeping Jim Harbaugh happy and the department functional.
That's most of what his job is. Most ADs are bureaucrats, because that's a large part of what they do. Dave Brandon thought he was an activist CEO. Don't demand the same of Warde.
February 5th, 2017 at 12:50 AM ^
It seems that Warde is suffering from paralysis by analysis. He really needs to either shit or get off the pot. Since he allowed Red to stay this season, you know damn well he won't be doing more than one coaching search per year. The basketball team is exactly in the same spot the football program was in at the end of Lloyd's reign. No one wanted to tell Lloyd it was time to leave just because he won a MNC.
Being an AD means you have to make some hard choices. At this rate if Beilein is still here next year, the only people at Crisler will be the TV Crew and half of the student section.
February 5th, 2017 at 2:52 AM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 10:04 PM ^
I generally dislike WD's posts, but I think he has been spot on about Warde.
February 4th, 2017 at 10:14 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 9:54 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 8:30 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 8:41 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 8:52 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 9:13 PM ^
No he isn't. He's historically a cyclical coach that makes a solid sweet sixteen run every couple of years with program guys.
The problem here isn't that he's returning to his "historical level" on the bubble. It's that instead of producing a solid sweet sixteen team with his experienced players (Irvin and Walton this year, those guys as juniors plus senior Levert last year) Michigan is struggling to make the tournament.
These two years are seasons where, based on Beilein's macro strategies, Michigan should be a solid tournament team at the 4-6 seed level with some young guys that contribute a couple of things and some experienced guys that overcome the lack of blue-chip talent with experience and coached ability.
In principle I think Michigan basketball can be a success if it achieves that level. Periodic solid teams, a year or two here and there where the team is irrelevant and rebuilding.
The problem is that these are the seasons to succeed, and Beilein has struck out. If Michigan is a solid 4-6 either last year or this, nobody thinks this thread really needs to exist. But they aren't and it does. And though I gripe about tone I can't argue that this isn't a reasonable discussion.
February 5th, 2017 at 6:08 AM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 9:01 PM ^
"So lucky."
So Beilein really has no idea what he's doing, he just got lucky? Isn't it possible that his philosophy and coaching were fine, but that he struck out and/or failed to develop the next class of talent? This is what some of us "not so fast" people mean. Not that Beilein needs another three-year contract, but that people are acting like two consecutive deep NCAA tournament runs were a mistake because Michigan isn't that good anymore.
C'mon.
Irvin was Mr. Basketball in Indiana, and Walton looked like a future star his freshman year (I laughed darkly watching the MSU game when the announcers talked about his great game at MSU his freshman year, because that was pretty much the highlight of his career).
Both recruiting and development since then have been a disaster. Tellingly, guys in the program have regressed or stayed stagnant. Walton is good, but not a worldbeater--if you had told me that Walton would start a full season as a senior, I'd expect Michigan to compete for the B1G title. Aubrey Dawkins (remember him?) looked set to break out last season, and instead was a mess. Kam Chatman hit one shot of any significance in two years despite being a top 50 recruit.
Oddly, this doesn't necessarily apply to Irvin, who has grown every season and would be a perfectly acceptable success story... if he weren't expected to be the primary offensive option for the team. He should be a complementary piece, but there is no Burke/Stauskas alpha to his beta.
I don't think that asking "how did he manage Burke/Stauskas/THJ/GRIII/McGary" is a productive question. He did it. He did a lot of stuff right.
It's more productive to ask if he is still doing that stuff right, and the answer is, apparently not.
February 5th, 2017 at 12:25 AM ^
Most everything you say is pretty spot on. My issue has never been with those points you are bringing up here. The issue is that I can't stand the style of basketball we have. It doesn't match up with the type of players you have available to you around Detroit and the Midwest in general. It's soft, relies on 3 point shooting (fine if you're Golden State, not if you're a Big Ten team) too much in my opinion, lacks rebounding in a conference full of rebounding-strong teams, and most importantly, IS NOT FUN TO WATCH. I can't wait for the program to change and bring some much needed attitude to a place known as white collar.
February 5th, 2017 at 6:14 AM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 8:30 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 8:31 PM ^
Lost the last 2 against OSU and the last 5 vs. MSU? Two years ago you knew this was coming if you were awake. All this losing is just numbing and Michigan basketball does not matter nationally anymore. This is the worst Ohio State basketball team in the last 10 years and they just kicked our ass in our gym for the last 30 minutes of the game. It shouldnt have even been close. Beilein does not coach or promote the style of basketball that wins anymore. Weak on bigs and over-dependence on the 3-ball. I feel bad for Derrick Walton. He is the sole reason to even watch this team. That kid plays with heart and passion.
February 4th, 2017 at 8:47 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 8:31 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 8:31 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 8:34 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 8:34 PM ^
Understand how RCMB feels in the fall.
February 4th, 2017 at 8:36 PM ^
But I'm done. It's not you. It's me....
February 4th, 2017 at 8:38 PM ^
The question that needs to be answered with regard to Beilein is who do we think we are as a program. My thoughts are that being a football school would prevent us from ever being truly at the top level, but I can't see why from a resources perspective why we can't be roughly MSU level. By that I mean in the tournament every year. Sweet Sixteen every 2-4 years and be a legitimate threat to win the tournament once or twice a decade. I don't see how he can consistently get us past the first weekend of the tournament. He gets one more year to win a tournament game or call it a career.
February 4th, 2017 at 8:40 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 8:42 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 8:41 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 10:41 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 8:42 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 8:44 PM ^
yet somehow is a #1 or #2 option on this team?
Beilein teams are always Charmin soft...this one just also happens to be less talented than most of his other groups.
Time for a change.
February 4th, 2017 at 8:44 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 8:49 PM ^
Unless you want to bet against Harbaugh - a man that wins everywhere and just recruited two straight top 5 classes. The past decade was indeed brutal though.
Basketball is on a steep decline and it's sad...Beilein is a good man, just can't recruit with the big boys.
I don't know enough abou the other sports except that they are not winning.
February 4th, 2017 at 8:46 PM ^
...it's not about assistant coaches...It's about the HEAD COACH. Saban loses assitants all the time...Harbaugh does...Meyer does...Mike K does...its all about the CULTURE and the philosophy of the head coach.
Beilien is soft, we have a soft finesse culture and no matter what assistants he changes.
TIME FOR HIM TO GO. PERIOD.
3659
February 4th, 2017 at 8:50 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 8:50 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 8:50 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 8:52 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 8:55 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 9:33 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 9:50 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 10:46 PM ^
February 4th, 2017 at 8:56 PM ^
We do not look like a D1 team compared to these teams. I get that they are both top 25 teams, but just a few years ago we were at this level. It's not even close right now.