Interesting convo I had with a prominant Chicago HS basketball coach
So, I had the opportunity to speak with a Chicago HS basketball luminary in a casual situation earlier today. I won't drop his name at this point, but he coached some of Chicago's best talent over the past 30 years at a couple well known Chicago high schools. He apparently just retired this year. I asked some very pointed questions about basketball topics, specifically regarding college recruiting, and he (thankfully) did not hold back on giving me some very candid and real answers. Thought I would share with the board:
1. College bball recruiting is extremely dirty (duh!)
2. While he thinks the NCAA does their best to monitor this, he seems to believe that college coaches are much smarter and can "stay ahead" of the NCAA. He says there are very sophisticated ways to pay players and their families without suspicion.
3. Coach K - dirty as hell (I was kinda surprised by this)
4. Coach Cal - dirty as hell (duh!)
5. Coach Pitino - dirty as hell (duh!)
5. Izzo - sends his assitants to do his dirty work. He says he was offered money from Dwayne Stephens on several recent occasions for particular recruits (although I don't know if he actually accepted the money). He thinks that Izzo is not as bad as others though. Izzo has a lot of respect in Chicago and is not normally known for playing dirty. However, his people told him that Izzo's recent recruting success is no doubt from some "below the belt" tactics.
6. The Jabari Parker recruitment was surprising clean on a relative scale.
7. As for Michigan/JB - clean, very clean, but too clean. Most promimant Chicago HS coaches stay away from Michigan because Michigan won't be part of the "recruiting machine" in Chicago. They think JB is a good coach but teaches "white boy" basketball. He basically says Michigan/JB has no respect in Chicago anymore.
I mentioned I was a Michigan fan and talked some more about our program. He has tons of respect for us becasue he had lots of interaction with Michigan many years ago. Back in the 90s, Michigan was THE school for Chicago's best talent. He says we were not a clean program then, but he says that no one was and Michigan was no different than any other major program. He seems to think we have little to no chance with big time recruits in any major city without getting a little dirty.
He had some funny things to say about Amaker, but I'll save for later.
Anyway, thought I would share with the board. What are your thoughts? Would you be OK with getting a little dirty to get better recruits? Are you OK with being a super clean program now that can't consistent compete on the big stage?
December 27th, 2015 at 11:07 PM ^
I wouldn't count out a Beilein team. His teams usually improve as a season goes on.
12-6 won't be simple but it's not out of the question. Our schedule isn't that bad.
December 27th, 2015 at 11:28 PM ^
is fairly tough. They have 7 games against Iowa, MSU, Purdue and Maryland. Illinois, OSU and Wisky they only play once but all three are on the road.
December 27th, 2015 at 10:10 PM ^
December 27th, 2015 at 10:41 PM ^
Dude, we missed the NIT last year
You are aware that we lost both of our starting guards to season-ending injuries last year, right? That's not normal for a basketball team.
December 28th, 2015 at 6:06 AM ^
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December 27th, 2015 at 9:58 PM ^
December 27th, 2015 at 10:01 PM ^
December 27th, 2015 at 9:55 PM ^
they obviously help, but you can win w/o them. even UM's current team is an example. if we had a legit defensive presence in the middle, this would be a legit top 10 team. you don't need a top 10 center to accomplish that. i just wish JB would recruit an athletic big man, who may be less skilled, just to give him some flexibility against opponents, especially on D.
December 28th, 2015 at 6:08 AM ^
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December 28th, 2015 at 9:43 AM ^
an eraser in the middle mitigates any perimeter D issues
December 27th, 2015 at 10:04 PM ^
...But getting to the NCAA championship and winning 2 big ten championships are huge anamolies for us. In fact, just winning a big ten championship is a huge anamoly for us. I don't think you are looking at the whole picture that is our basketball program. We had a good 2-3 year period, but we are not consistently there and because of that we are really just a middle of the road big ten team now.
If you think that we will make another final four (or even win another big ten championship) with the type of talent we typically recruit, then you will likely be waiting a LONG time.
December 27th, 2015 at 10:29 PM ^
December 27th, 2015 at 10:56 PM ^
Sanctions were about 15 years ago. You can use them as an excuse for a couple years after, but not 15. OSU got sanctions very similar to ours (and more recently), and they became very successful quickly thereafter - most good programs do. We sucked for years because of lackluster coaching under Amaker and to certain extent low expectations for our program.
I hate saying this to you (because I hate it when others do it), but you are too young to understand how good we could be. You like to think we are a good program because of a NCAA championship game and a couple big ten championships. In reality, we are an above average program that caught lightening in a bottle for a few years. Looking at JBs track record over his tenure and he averages out in the middle of the big ten. You may be fine with that - I think we can do better.
December 27th, 2015 at 11:09 PM ^
December 27th, 2015 at 11:11 PM ^
I kind of agree with you, but do you really think there are 6 or 7 better coaches in the big ten?
December 27th, 2015 at 11:35 PM ^
...but there are 5 coaches in the big ten that are better at recruiting and can consistently put together a competitive team with more consistent results. I think JB is a basketball genius that doesn't always translate to results on the basketball court. What's more, his legendary skills on the offensive side of the game is almost completely neutalized with horrible defensive coaching.
December 28th, 2015 at 12:46 AM ^
do tell who those 5 are
December 28th, 2015 at 1:38 AM ^
1. Izzo
2. Matta
3. Bo Ryan (I know, he just retired, but still counts)
4. Matt Painter
5. Bruce Weber (ok, I know we can't count him, but I mistakenly was thinking of him when initially putting this list together)
Again, I do not think that these coaches are necessarily better at coaching compared to JB. I do think they are better at some things (like recruiting) that enable some consistency in their success.
December 28th, 2015 at 3:30 AM ^
December 28th, 2015 at 9:47 AM ^
if you think painter, weber and ryan have recruited better than beilein. weber got fired because of his lack of recruiting.
hell, beilein has put in as many guys in the nba as those guys combined since he's been at michigan.
December 28th, 2015 at 11:10 AM ^
...I was not implying that they were necessarily better recruiters. When putting together all the factors that make a consistently successful program (which recruiting is considered one of several factors), these coaches mentioned do a better job than JB. I'm using NCAA post season appearance and performance as the proxy.
December 28th, 2015 at 11:41 AM ^
December 28th, 2015 at 12:37 PM ^
Go look at their records and NCAA tourney appearances over the past 8 years. They are simply more consistently successful than we are.
December 28th, 2015 at 4:06 PM ^
December 28th, 2015 at 12:18 PM ^
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December 28th, 2015 at 12:45 PM ^
And an NIT championship. His results speaks for itself - his performance is head and shoulders above JB's.
Bo Ryan retired like a week ago, so he's fair game.
Painter and Weber (while Illinois head coach) got to the post season more consistently than JB.
December 28th, 2015 at 12:08 AM ^
I'll ignore vacating wins, tournaments, banners, etc.
Sanctions were imposed 13 years ago, but then NCAA added more later, so they only stopped 7 1/2 years ago.
Future impacts handed out or imposed in 2002:
- Probation for 4 years (02-03, 03-04, 04-05, 05-06)
- Postseason ban for 1 year (02-03) after successful appeal to reduce the 2 years
- Loss of one scholarship per year (04-05, 05-06, 06-07, 07-08)
When you're only adding 2-4 scholarships per year in Div I basketball, being down 1 scholarship for 4 seasons can really hurt. Add in the coaching quality in those years (is it a cause or an effect?), and it adds up. But this is not 15 years ago; these sanctions ended in 08, after Beilein's first season. By coincidence, no NCAA tourney action from 02 until Beilein's second season.
This was a black mark on the program that stretched on for more than a decade.
In contrast, for the O'Brien incident at OSU with Savovic, future impacts handed down in '06 were:
- Probation for 3 years (06-07, 07-08, 08-09)
That's it. No postseason ban, no scholarship reductions. Even O'Brien ended up winning $2.4 from OSU for breach of contract, had his show-cause order reduced from 5 to 2 years, and had some of the charges against him dropped by NCAA due to OSU enforcement staff not doing things correctly. Around here, I'd say there was maybe a year's worth of a black mark, then they moved on back to Big Ten titles and NCAA runs (every year but '08).
December 28th, 2015 at 12:44 AM ^
1. About 15 years ago = 13 years ago.
2. Probation means nothing as long as you stay clean
3. I'll give you the scholarship reductions, those can hurt. But I'm not sure Amaker was going to do much with those scholarships. After all, he gave people like Amadou Ba a scholarship
4. While too lazy to look it up, I'm sure I remember OSU self imposing a post season ban in 2005. I remember OSU giving that awesome 2005 U of Illinois team their only regular season loss the very last game of the regular season, and the annoucers stating it was a shame that OSU couldn't use it to parlay that win into a NCAA appearance.
Regardless, using the sanctions as an excuse of who we are today is a lame, even if it want to say they end 8 years ago. We really got to stop creating excuses for this program.
December 28th, 2015 at 9:18 AM ^
You can't reason with that one. He has no perspective from which to draw. Michigan is the bestest ever at everything, and always will be.
LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU
December 27th, 2015 at 9:38 PM ^
December 27th, 2015 at 9:43 PM ^
December 27th, 2015 at 9:58 PM ^
I think the NBA gets a bad rap. Maybe 10 years ago players were loafing up and down the court and playing iso offense; but the NBA game has changed and the good teams play great defense and move the ball on O. Obviously the Warriors and Spurs are good examples of this; but there's lots of good teams and good players in the NBA right now (OKC, Cleveland, Memphis, Atlanta, Indiana, even DETROIT!!).
December 27th, 2015 at 10:04 PM ^
December 27th, 2015 at 10:05 PM ^
Playing defense? Then we definitely don't play white boy basketball
December 28th, 2015 at 6:11 AM ^
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December 28th, 2015 at 9:01 AM ^
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December 27th, 2015 at 9:46 PM ^
If we are White Boy basketball, what the hell is Wisconsin? Albino Basketball?
December 27th, 2015 at 9:46 PM ^
If the tables were turned and a different color on the specter were used, then folks would be screaming about racism.
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December 28th, 2015 at 6:14 AM ^
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December 28th, 2015 at 3:07 PM ^
If there is a "white boy basketball", then what are the other styles of basketball called?
December 27th, 2015 at 9:38 PM ^
December 27th, 2015 at 9:49 PM ^
Wish I had asked
December 27th, 2015 at 10:14 PM ^
Have a feeling he's cleaner than we would expect. Who knows though, maybe just as bad as the rest of 'em.
December 27th, 2015 at 9:38 PM ^
I'd love to see a poll on this question. Personally, I love Beilein, and wouldn't trade him for Petrino, Coach K, Calipari, or Izzo. If the cost of winning is being dirty, I don't want to play the game. I'm guessing I won't be representative of the board, but that's ok. I don't know why, and I don't have any facts or evidence, I somehow have this idea that the guys who come to Michigan actually know what they're getting, and like coming to Michigan. And that for many others, it is about the money or the dirt or the being a business.
There are cheaters in every business and every corner of the world. I expect it. But if the only way to win is to stack the deck, I just don't want to play.