Non-redshirted Football Players. A Hindsight Look

Submitted by Qmatic on

With the news of Peppers and Morgan getting a medical redshirt, it got me thinking about who of our current players saw action as true freshmen, and whether or not in hindsight it was a smart decision. I left out players who played as true freshmen but ultimately received a redshirt at some point (Morgan, Darboh, Peppers, Richardson).

Shane Morris (Jr): Was thrust into the backup position in 2013 for multiple reasons (Bellomy injury, no QB in 2012 class). He saw time stepping in for Gardner when he lost his helmet, and started the BWW Bowl. He was not redshirted out of necessity, and laregly based on what we saw this year, he could have used an extra year of development.

Derrick Green (Jr): Was the top rated RB in the '13 class. Started to show flashes towards the end of the season once his conditioning improved. Was the backup for most of the season, and started a few games at the end. His experience seemed to help him as he looked pretty promising this season at times before injury. Based on that, it was probably the right decision.

DeVeon Smith (Jr): At the beginning of 2013 season it didn't make much sense to burn his redshirt as he was behind Fitz, Drake, Green, Rawls, and Hayes; and we did not take a RB in the 2014 class. He saw pretty much exclusive special teams duty until later in the season. Looked like our best RB against OSU and ran with more power than Green. That experience seemed to help him out of the gate this season as he competed for the starting spot; eventually getting it after Green's injury. At the time burning his redshirt didn't make a whole lot of sense, but now with Isaac and the glaring evidence that Smith is who he is (good short yard back who runs with power but lacks speed) it isn't detrimental that he burned his RS.

Freddy Canteen (So): Massive-hype out of camp about him. Saw some time at WR making little impact. Too early to say whether or not he should have RS this past season.

Damario Jones (Jr): Appeared to be the WR with the most upside from our not-so-exciting class of '13 receivers. Did not contribute on offense. Only time his name was called was when a punt bounced off his leg vs UCONN and when getting a personal foul vs MSU. Jones doesn't appear to be a major contributor, so it is tough to say whether or not a redshirt would have made much of a difference.

Dennis Norfleet (Sr): Brought some excitement to our KR game as a true freshman, but ultimately didn't have too much of an impact as a true frosh. Dileo/Gallon could have done what he did in the return game in '12. Should have redshirted

Jake Butt (Jr): Strong production as a true frosh. Saw increased duty once Funchess moved to WR.

AJ Williams (Sr): Saw time at TE as frosh being used primarly as a blocker. Has been underwhelming in 3 seasons so far. At this point, he is who he is, and a RS would not have probably made much of a difference.

Mason Cole (So): Played exceptionally well for a true frosh at LT. Appears to be headed for All-B1G in the coming years.

Mario Ojemudia (Sr): Lack of depth led for him to have to play in the rotation back in '12 even though he was extremely undersized. Looking at DE depth it would be nice to have him as a RS Jr right now.

Taco Charlton (Jr): Same as Ojemudia. Would be nice to have him as a RS So now, but lack of depth led to him playing (sometimes quite well) as a true frosh.

Bryan Mone (So): Made an impact as true forsh. Appears to have a bright future ahead.

Ondre Pipkins (Sr): Another highly-touted recruit who saw quite a bit of action in his first season. Injuries have played a major part in his career.

James Ross (Sr): Rotation LB as true frosh. Showed a lot of potential (which he hasn't really improved on a whole lot in the past two seasons)

Joe Bolden (Sr): Same as Ross. Showed potential as freshman, has turned out to be a solid LB.

Ben Gedeon (Jr): Showed flashes as a true frosh, but looking at our LB depth, would be nice to have him with 3 yrs of eligibility left.

Royce Jenkins-Stone (Sr): To be honest, I don't remember him even seeing the field at all in '12. Should have redshirted.

Jourdan Lewis (Jr): Rotation CB in '13. Experience appeared to help him a lot for '14.

Channing Stribling (Jr): Like Lewis, saw quite a bit of PT as frosh in '13. Seemed to show flashes of potential. Playing time diminished this season.

Delano Hill (Jr): Only memorable moment from playing in his freshmen season was throwing a punch at an OSU player. Should have RS.

Dymonte Thomas (Jr): Super-hyped player out of HS. Made next to no impact as a frosh. Hard to believe he is a junior now.

Jarrod Wilson (Sr): Saw some time backing up Kovacs in 2012. Looking at how thin our depth is at Safety after this year, and judging by the minimal impact he made as a freshmen, it would be nice to have him as RS Jr now.

I know this is all hindsight, but I thought it was interesting to see how many of our players saw action as true freshmen, and how in some cases their contribution was minimal. I think with a largely upperclass team this year, we will not see as many true frosh playing this season, and hopefully as we move forward.

 

 

 

Comments

Lakeyale13

February 11th, 2015 at 7:27 AM ^

I think that most of us aren't so much as upset that a redshirt was burned, but that our players are not developed and coached into better football players. For the last 6 years, a kid who arrives on the team is essentially the same player 3-4 years later when he leaves. Generalizing of course. I am more frustrated that we burned Shane's, Dymonte's, etc and they seem no better a football player than their first year. Isn't that really the issue at hand? My $.02

Gino5778

February 11th, 2015 at 7:42 AM ^

It seemed like Hoke and Co. made so many promises or used the "play early" card too much in recruiting that they were forced to stick by it.  17/18yr old kids think they know the world and unless you are a freak of nature you should redshirt.

Reader71

February 11th, 2015 at 9:20 AM ^

There's certainly some of that. But mostly, he inherited a lot of roster holes and had to play guys early. FB and TE weren't part of Coach Rod's roster. We were light on DL, particularly DE. He broke in two freshman LB in his first year. Its easy to promise early PT when you know you're going to have to play a lot of guys right away.

IncrediblySTIFF

February 11th, 2015 at 8:30 AM ^

It is easy to sit back and judge who should and shouldn't have taken a redshirt, and I would go so far as to say it is fun to judge wether it was smart or not smart.

That being said, I know Hoke had discussions with freshman often: Are you planning on graduating in four years?  Because for some players that were pretty serious about their academics, if they are going to be done with school in four years you might as well let them see the field in year one.

Just my take, and I see the pros and cons of it, I can certainly see why a little more micromanagement there might make sense, but I believe Hoke gives everyone the option up front.  Part of the whole "I'm here for you, not for me" mentality.

Richard75

February 11th, 2015 at 9:51 AM ^

That all sounds admirable, but it's tantamount to saying that winning isn't that important. It's one thing to say that with respect to what kinds of players you're willing to recruit, but once they're on the team, who plays and who doesn't should be about what's best for the team.

Just another reason why it's good to be past all this. The amount of contorted rationalizing that went on with stuff like this was maddening.

I Like Burgers

February 11th, 2015 at 10:24 AM ^

I don't see what the academics has to do with anything.  Unless I'm completely misunderstanding this, you're saying Hoke opted to play guys as true freshman because they wanted to graduate in four years and wouldn't be on the team in year five as a redshirt senior?  I've been following college football a LONG time and can't ever remember an instance where someone left the team with a year of eligibility left because they had graduated and wanted to go join the working world ASAP.

If anything, that logic does the academic kids a disservice because if you're only giving them four years of scholarship by playing them as true freshman, you're depriving them of at least a year of free grad school.  Which if you're really serious about academics would be pretty important I would think.

Red is Blue

February 11th, 2015 at 1:46 PM ^

With the increasing usage of grad transfers, if you know a player is strong academically and redshirt them, don't you open up the possibility of them using their fifth (best?) year for someone else?  Aren't the kids that do well in school probably also the kids that are most likely to pursue grad school?

Mr Miggle

February 11th, 2015 at 8:33 AM ^

But even hindsight can be wrong. Wilson was a no-brainer to play as a freshman. We were so thin at safety that he was needed in the rotation. Additionally that experience was helpful for when he stepped in to start as a sophomore.

Thomas was expected to play a lot as a freshman. He started the season in the rotation, but fell out because he struggled. He was still a valuable player on special teams. There's not a lot of time to make that decision, just a few weeks of fall camp. His physical tools were obvious. It was reasonable to think he might develop a lot during the season, also to believe he was promised he wouldn't redshirt.

Basically, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Playing true freshmen can fill holes, help them develop faster and improve special teams. Keeping them for a fifth year gives them more time to develop. It also uses up a scholarship for an extra year or costs them if they have to later take a medical RS. It costs you if they leave early for the NFL or a grad year transfer. These decisions have to be made quickly for the most part, based on potential to help the team. There's no possible way to get every decision right. Some of the decisions to redshirt can be questioned as well. It seems that we never talk about them. 

m1jjb00

February 11th, 2015 at 8:37 AM ^

I have yet to see a learned discussion of the contributions of any of these guys on special teams and whether the alternative was worse, etc.  In judging some of those decisions, that has to be a consideration (Thomas, Geddeon, ...)  Also, what is the benefit from the experience of being on special teams; how important is it?  Sure, it won't tell you how to read a belly fake and haul out to the flat, but is it zero?  I'm not saying these considerations absolve all of Hoke's shirt-burning decisions, but they are relevant.

I Like Burgers

February 11th, 2015 at 8:47 AM ^

I think you're oversimplifying the "is who he is" argument. Almost everyone can benefit from being held back a year. And there's a big difference between a true junior who doesn't look like he's going to ever figure it out and a redshirt sophomore who looks the exact same. And for the "they are who they are" crowd of backups and role players having that extra year of experience is hugely important.

Lakeyale13

February 11th, 2015 at 9:11 AM ^

Who was the last Michigan player that graduated, AND BASED ON THEIR ACTUAL PRODUCTION, you mourned them not having another year of eligibility due to their redshirt being burned prematurely? Again, this seems to be player developement issues. We are looking at players and "thinking what they potentially could / would have been" had their redshirt not been burned. Almost always,by the time you are a junior you are what you are, or your coaches have failed you miserably. Generalizing of course. I compare it to what my 14 year old son experiences with sports. So many kids "reclassify" (intentionally hold themselves back a grade for athletic reasons). I tell him for 99% of kids it is a waste. By the time your a junior / senior either you are good enough or not. An extra year isn't going to make you into an elite prospect. Their are always outliers, but that will be the case for 99%.

UM2k1

February 11th, 2015 at 9:39 AM ^

I realize your question was rhetorical, but it got me thinking. I believe Will Campbell would have been a useful commodity as a RS SR. He had 4 tackles his freshman year (2009), and I would have gladly traded that for a repeat of his his honorable mention all B1G 2012 in 2013.

Lakeyale13

February 11th, 2015 at 9:44 AM ^

Are there rhetorical questions on message boards? There shouldn't be....that is what makes them fun. Lol I agree with you that Big Will would have been useful, but he was no better than an average Big10 player, and from most accounts, never put the work in to be as effective of s player he could have been.

maize-blue

February 11th, 2015 at 9:31 AM ^

I don't have too strong of an opinioin either way regarding redshirts and when they should be used. I have zero issues with someone playing as a true freshman if they able to contribute. However, I don't really care to see a redshirt burned just so a guy can run down the field on special teams a few times a game. I feel like there have been multiple guys in the past two seasons who fall into that category.

StephenRKass

February 11th, 2015 at 10:39 AM ^

I appreciate the post. This is the kind of speculation that MGoBlog does such a great job of fostering. Just a few observations.

  1. When you look back in hindsight, you ALWAYS see things that could have been done differently. Should the Seahawks have passed on 2nd down at the 1 yard line in the Superbowl? Obviously not. Worst. Decision. Ever. And yet. That doesn't make Carroll a bad football coach (as much as I dislike him.) I actually think picking on an undrafted rookie CB was a reasonable call. I digress. Obviously, looking back, people can question why Canteen was played. Or Ojemudia. Or Thomas. The reality is that there are even people still on this board who were champing at the bit to see those guys hit the field. It didn't work out. C'est la vie.
  2. It's all about the need, 'bout the need, not potential. It's all about the need, 'bout the need, not potential.It's all about the need, 'bout the need, not potential. All about the need, 'bout the need, 'bout the need.
  3. I can agree that Hoke didn't work out, and needed to go. That's the way the cookie crumbles.  But I get pretty tired of the bloggers looking to blame him for all of Michigan's problems, including RS decisions. As others have said, you have to take into consideration what the athlete himself wants to do, and we don't know that inside discussion. Imhe, Hoke was forced into some decisions becuase of the roster depth and balance. Regardless, the magical gold-pooping Hoke is gone, the new Sheriff's in town, and we're moving forward. 

Magnus

February 11th, 2015 at 11:00 AM ^

I agree with #3 somewhat in that Hoke was sort of forced into playing some guys. The number of freshmen who played in 2014 was lower (Mone, Cole, Peppers, Canteen) partly because the roster had been built back up by last season, and Peppers even ended up with a medical redshirt, anyway.

I do think some of Hoke's non-redshirts were of his own doing, but he seemed to be fixing the error of his ways just before the on-field results got him fired.

Vacuous Truth

February 11th, 2015 at 11:32 AM ^

I think it would make sense to include those who recieved medical redshirts after their freshman year in this analysis. The fact that they later got the redshirt b/c of injury means playing as a true frosh doesn't matter now, but it is still useful data for the study here. For example, the fact that Desmond Morgan got hurt in 2014 does not have any relevance on our analysis of whether him playing in 2011 was a good idea, right? Since no one expected the medical redshirt, the decision can still be judged on value of playing in 2011 vs. value of possibly having him in 2015.

And now that I mention it, how much should the possiblity of a medical redshirt down the road impact the redshirt-or-don't decision? For example, the decision not to redshirt Desmond Morgan worked out great b/c you got value in 2011 AND 2015, whereas if you had redshirted him you would get none in 2011, and still lose 2014. That question brings up the medical hardship question - if Morgan had redshirted in 2011, then missed 2014 for injury, would he get a 6th year? I dont quite know how that works.

As for the likelihood of a player missing a year due to injury...from our very small sample size above, you broke down 23 players, and left out 4 who got hurt, so on this team the odds of not initially redshirting then taking it down the line for medical reasons was ~15%.

Anyways, from a game theory perspective, the non-zero chance that a player may be forced to miss a season later in his career due to injury, and the realization that if that is going to happen you may as well not have redshirted him to begin with, should be a variable, however small, in the formula, don't you think?

reshp1

February 11th, 2015 at 12:58 PM ^

Why does the Norfleet one bother people so much? He was a signing day pick-up with zero expectations. We'll get 4 years of production at KR from him (he's the record holder for total return yards, BTW), which exceeds what you expect out of a recruit of his level. I know everyone sees him juking guys in tight spaces and thinks he could have been more, but he really didn't get much out of his offensive snaps despite having a shot under two different offensive schemes. Not sure how a RS would really help there. I dunno, if Harbaugh somehow turns him into an unstoppable offensive weapon this year, I guess I'll retract my statement, but I don't see that happening.

Magnus

February 11th, 2015 at 4:57 PM ^

I think other guys could have done what he did as a freshman, and the hope is that Norfleet will be a better football player in 2015 than he was in 2012. There doesn't appear to be anyone scheduled to be on the roster in 2016 who can do everything he can do (slot receiver, run out of the backfield, return kicks/punts, etc.). I don't think it's a huge travesty or anything, but ultimately, if there's no glaring need to play freshmen, I just don't think they should play.