Lloyd Carr Appreciation Thread
I hope all of you appreciate now how DIFFICULT it is to win 8 to 10 games, win/compete for B1G championships, and go to a bowl game EVERY YEAR!
Coach Carr was pushed out by people (this site included) who thought any idiot off the street can do what Carr did year after year. After two coaches and too many embarrassing loses later, we all know the truth now.
Coaching football in NCAA is hard. Not very many people are good at it. It is difficult even when you have the enormous resources that this great university can provide.
I hope you remember that for the next coach and beyond.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:31 PM ^
Mallett was out that door whether Carr came back or not, whether the next coach was a spread to run guy or not, Mallett was gone. He didn't like it at Michigan.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:09 PM ^
October 1st, 2014 at 4:30 PM ^
But the only people that left before Spring practice were Mallett (transfer), Manningham (NFL), and Arrington (NFL). Carr said something along the lines of "If you really want to leave than you can come to me and talk about it and I can sign your papers" and not one player took him up on that offer at that time.
Now, that seems odd to me. If Carr was trying to push kids out the door I feel like at that time more people would have been out that door. But they weren't.
Now, I'll admit, I think Carr was more loyal to his players than he was to the program. For people that root for the program, that sucks. For the players, that's amazing: you as a person are more important because you are family. I don't see that as a slight against Carr personally, I think it's kind of neutral.
Anyway, I agree that a lot of talent didn't pan out or got gutted for a variety of reasons by the time he left. Likewise, when Rich Rod decided to not keep any of his coaches (very well thought of position coaches) besides Jackson, I think that really bothered him, and was one of the big things that turned him off on Rich (combined with the way that Rich threw some of the ways Carr operated under the bus). Carr didn't go out and bash the program for that, he just remained silent and didn't openly support Rich Rod often. Again, that's because Carr cared more about his family then he did Michigan. He didn't tear down Michigan, Michigan at each and every stop did that to itself. He didn't prop it up once he retired, no denying that, but I disagree with this image that he burned the program because he was bitter. He just let it do what it was going to do.
October 1st, 2014 at 5:14 PM ^
It can't have just been the position coaches, because after that decision was made Carr made public appearances with Rodriguez (watched a basketball game together). There wasn't even any suggestion of tension at that point (which isn't to say there wasn't, just that they didn't show it).
What keeps getting left out of this is that RR was Carr's idea. The standard narrative seems to be that Carr, out of spite because he wanted somebody else to get the job, sabotaged RR immediately upon arrival. Does that even make sense?
October 1st, 2014 at 5:53 PM ^
October 1st, 2014 at 6:07 PM ^
But he was a 6'5" 3-star drop-back QB who was about as far from the RR-QB mold as possible. Maybe he could have beaten Sheridan out in '08, but if he was so far from winning the job at Iowa, where they played a compatible system, it doesn't seem likely he would have been a long term solution for Rodriguez
October 1st, 2014 at 2:43 PM ^
Turns out it could be much, much worse.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:44 PM ^
He was loyal (and stubborn) to a fault. He kept Hermann way longer than he should have. Who remembers the 2 score lead against Ohio in the 4th quarter where Troy Smith marched them down the field without even registering a 3RD DOWN!
we don't make a national title run in 2006 with Hermann as DC.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:47 PM ^
Carr won the 1997 national title with Moeller's recruits. Followed it up with his recruiting classes with 2 losses in September and October nearly every year.
I don't want to go back to the Carr years. I really don't. I don't want to go back to getting top ten recruiting classes but the best we could do being a Rose Bowl loss. I'm ready for someone to take us to the elite level we never got to under Carr like Tressel did with OSU, Stoops did for OU, Carroll did with USC, Urban did with Florida, etc.
We have the money and resources. Get it done.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:52 PM ^
October 1st, 2014 at 4:16 PM ^
This wasn't an outside coach coming in and taking "someone else's players".
Regardless, Carr's first recruiting class were Juniors when he won in 1997. The Seniors and RS Seniors were recruited while Moeller was HC and Carr was the DC. So assuming an average of 20 kids per class and 10 RS SR, split offense/defense 50/50, Carr was personally responsible for recruiting 83% of that team. So even disregarding the fact that Carr and his staff (which was very similar to Moeller's staff) developed these guys, he still won with a lot of his guys.
October 1st, 2014 at 8:10 PM ^
Carr assumed the interim role in the summer of 1995 so he signed his first full class in February 1996. I believe they started a couple young guys on the offensive line and Anthony Thomas was a true freshman, but I believe your numbers are skewed a bit.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:57 PM ^
I would add to those bringing up his shady behavior toward his successor, let's not forget, he necessitated the search for a successor outside the program, because he hired lousy coordinators and after 13 seasons (!) did not have an obvious, deserving heir apparent. Say what you will about RR's defenses and O-lines, and their lingering effects on Hoke's downfall today, but the actions that put RR in position to do that happened first.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:54 PM ^
a couple of my buddies lived across the street from him and next to him growing up. he always was good on hooking up the halloween candy. also one time we were playing street hockey and some players were over at his house and when they were leaving to go back to campus they played a little bit with us which was pretty cool. woulda been better if it was jason botterill and bredan morrison but what can ya do!
October 1st, 2014 at 2:55 PM ^
This thread would probably be more accurately titled "8-4 beating MSU but losing to OSU appreciation thread". Because that's essentially what it is. If you feel like we should have enjoyed 8-4 because it is better than this year's team then have at it.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:03 PM ^
Only three of Lloyd's 13 seasons had 8 or fewer wins.
So, no, that wouldn't be accurate at all.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:11 PM ^
thats a big neg. Carr was the origination of the problem. Well perhaps it started before him but he nutured it, ingrained it.
Is Bo Pelini a great coach. Carr may be Bo Pelini with one great year.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:42 PM ^
Bo Pelini 6/13 seasons. He didn't win a national title. Pelini has never been to a BCS bowl, let alone won two. Pelini's conference record is 71%, Carr's is 78%.
So no, Carr isn't Bo Pelini with one great year.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:17 PM ^
Coach Carr retired. He wanted to be done a year earlier and Martin and his players talked him into coaching another season because they thought they could win it all in 2007.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:17 PM ^
Lloyd Carr, whatever his achievements and shortcomings, was not "pushed out" by anybody. He wanted to retire after 2006, and Bill Martin, perhaps unwisely, persuaded him to stay another year. Anybody who believes that Martin or the Regents or Mary Sue Coleman or Brian Cook or Greg in Saginaw "pushed him out" is a mouthbreathing idiot.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:37 PM ^
i said it nicer.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:46 PM ^
That's why I gave Don the +1.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:50 PM ^
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October 3rd, 2014 at 4:45 PM ^
Because of incompetence?
The guy thought he could call Bill Cowher out of retirement. He thought he could give LSU a heads up they were interested in talking to Les Miles, then go sailing for a weekend before talking to Miles. He thought Schiano would say yes so he asked him publicly. He then got marginalized as MSC ran the search that settled on Rodriguez.
Martin was a lot of things, good and bad. I would definitely not hold him up as a model AD and would not want him back.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:18 PM ^
Everyone who wanted to "blow up the fort" (a phrase that use used endlessly on this messageboard) has gotten what they asked for. Happy now? Winning the Big Ten wasn't enough and winning only 1 MNC wasn't enough. An endless string of winning seasons and bowl games and legit 100,000+ crowds wasn't enough. Now the the fort is a smouldering crater and Lloyd Carr looks pretty good right now (as a coach with a 75.3 win percent , five conference chanpionships and a MNC rightly should).
October 1st, 2014 at 4:31 PM ^
October 1st, 2014 at 4:49 PM ^
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October 1st, 2014 at 3:18 PM ^
Lloyd suggested to Bill Martin two guys to replace him: Kirk Ferentz and Mike DeBord
October 1st, 2014 at 3:37 PM ^
And do you know what I say to that?
Yuck.
October 1st, 2014 at 5:01 PM ^
RR was also his idea.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:35 PM ^
Would either of these guys been worse than RR or Hoke? Maybe DeBord, however, definately not Ferentz.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:22 PM ^
word I think of.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:30 PM ^
Lloyd was good for people who didn't want to be elite.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:29 PM ^
That was 2000. Purdue and Northwestern were frustrating but the latter would have been a win if not for an inexplicable fumble. The UCLA loss came when Henson was injured, the freshman Navarre was a mess and Epstein had a rough day placekicking - can't really pin that one on Lloyd.
Lloyd remains the only Michigan coach in the last 65 years to win the national title. That fact cannot not be downplayed.
October 1st, 2014 at 5:33 PM ^
October 1st, 2014 at 3:26 PM ^
And we are about to make another TERRIBLE hire.
Once that happens and the ensuing 4 years of crap ends, an entire generation of kids will have grown up (in cognizant form) without Michigan having a great program.
Sorry if that sounds negtative. I believe in Michigan. I don't believe in Brandon.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:47 PM ^
You forgot to include the thanking him for undermining our program the moment he left because his guys didn't get a sniff at the job.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:58 PM ^
No, he wasn't perfect and would Lloydball games away to Illinois in 1999 and to Purdue in 2000, along with others, but at least the team was ahead to Lloydball those games away. Keep in mind that those years were also the most competitive the Big 10 has probably ever been. Illinois, Purdue, and Northwestern were all good teams. 1999 featured SEVEN Big 10 teams in the final BCS poll and OSU wasn't one of them:
Wisconsin (4), U-M (5), MSU (7), PSU (11), Minnesota (18), Illinois (24), Purdue (25)
I would take a Lloydballed game every other year or so if the team could go 3-2 against the top 25 each year, including a win over the final #4 team in the country.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:01 PM ^
Carr was a great coach. The amount of wins he had, the consistency he had, his winning percentage, the fact that he won a national title and a bunch of conference titles and had a Heisman winner all equate to a man who was a great coach.
That doesn't mean he was one of the greatest coaches of all time. He isn't Bear Bryant, Tom Osbourne, Bobby Bowden, JoePa, Woody, Bo, or God forbid, Jim Tressel, but he was a great coach.
He is one of less than 100 coaches of all time to coach for more than 10 seasons at any college level and have over a .750 winning percentage. He won over 75% of all his games. He won over 75% of his conference games. He won a national title. He helped produce the first ever primarily defensive Heisman winner. He produced tons of draft picks, and tons of players that panned out. When people complain he wasn't great because "look at the talent and look at the results", they are thinking in terms of him being one of the greatest ever. Instead he was just great. Instead he was just a HOF college football coach instead of one of the first names that come up when people say "Greatest Coaches". I dunno man, greatest coaches of all-time aren't just a dime-a-dozen. They are few and far between. So are great coaches. But for some people being great isn't good enough.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:18 PM ^
the refs if thinks something was poorly called. He had a fire and a passion to be good and that is what I like.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:19 PM ^
Other than
- App St game,
- Constant losing against OSU in later years, (Now we know why. Maybe)
- Didn't travel well to west coast,
I always think Lloyd was a reliable coach against most teams. He might lose one or two games to some average team every year, but not a ton like now.
A few things I like about Lloyd
- the undefeated 1997 season
- Michigan team soly responsible for ruining Ohio State's national title hope a few times
- usually beat PSU and MSU no matter how bad or down his teams were.
- did constant develope and send players to NFL
- no one accused his teams of being soft, especially OL and DL
October 1st, 2014 at 4:30 PM ^
Soft? No. But didn't get them to play up to their potential? Yes.
Someone get the quote from the Wisconsin player during the late Lloyd years about how both Michigan and OSU had guys with all american talent but the OSU guys just played harder and didn't take plays off.
October 1st, 2014 at 8:01 PM ^
I wouldn't say "soft", but you read those USC quotes after they trounced UM in the Rose Bowl and they basically said they knew the lines couldn't hold up and USC defenders could call the plays out before they were snapped.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:28 PM ^
of Lloyd Carr was maintaining the Michigan tradition during a time when college football was changing fast. Offensive schemes were becoming point and yardage machines, the arms race of facilities leveled the playing field and Michigan was swallowed from behind.
I admire Carr for a lot of things but he didn't recognize the game around him was changing and thus he ushered in what has been a painfull decade plus of Michigan football.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:45 PM ^
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October 1st, 2014 at 7:29 PM ^
could have very easily been much worse. 2006 was just, I don't know, lightning in a bottle against a terrible Big Ten schedule.
we were heading for 6-6 seasons in both 05 and 07, a couple close late wins kept that from happening. We have been truly mediocre for a decade now.
October 1st, 2014 at 7:34 PM ^
2006 was the only year you can consider him competitive for a national title, and that was probably a bit of a stretch given how the last couple of games played out. He did win conference titles as late as 2004, but all those teams finished with at least 3 losses. Carr was a good coach, but his recruiting was down toward the end of his tenure, and his teams were becoming less and less competitive against the better teams they faced on the schedule. I don't think he "ushered" in this era, but he is not above blame for how this program has suffered since his departure.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:29 PM ^
Gimme that all day
October 1st, 2014 at 4:37 PM ^
Being born in '91, coach carr was the only coach I really ever knew until RR. I love that man, because he's what I think of when I think of Michigan football and my love for the program.
October 1st, 2014 at 6:37 PM ^
Born in '95, and this is my exact view.