Chad Lindsay To OSU
A much-needed boost to Michigan's offensive line is apparently headed to the worst possible place:
Alabama transfer Chad Lindsay is expected to sign with Ohio State, per source. Buckeyes get new center for Braxton Miller
— Jeremy Fowler (@JFowlerCBS) April 22, 2014
Well played, Urban.
Running around in a circle is a little over the top, but only a little. That Lindsay rejected his former OC and an almost certain starting spot is alarming, and now Michigan enters next year with zero senior scholarship OL.
I accepted a long time ago that we just cannot compete with OSU in most aspects of football. I still love my school and I still go to as many games (if not more) as I always have, but under this coaching staff, we have very little chance to ever compete with OSU.
Michigan absolutely can compete with OSU in most aspects of football. This head coach you are unhappy with was Michigan's CHOICE. Incredible, but true.
If we had a different staff, we perhaps can compete with OSU.
We had a different staff, and actually couldn't compete. Under RR, we scored 24 points on OSU, and they scored 100 on us. That's not competition.
Under Hoke, we have scored 102 on OSU, and they have scored 102 on us. Sounds to me like competition to me.
April 22nd, 2014 at 10:30 PM ^
April 22nd, 2014 at 10:37 PM ^
YEEEAH! Close losses and beating an interim coach! WOOOOH.
April 22nd, 2014 at 10:56 PM ^
April 22nd, 2014 at 11:11 PM ^
What you are failing to realize is that I am criticizing Michigan's toxic culture. Rich Rod's career did not begin and end in Ann Arbor. He was good at West Virginia and his progress at Arizona has been excellent. There is a common belief that Rodriguez is "a good coach, just not good for Michigan." Similarly, there is a belief that Hoke's very underwhelming record in small conferences is excusable because he will succeed when back in Michigan's supportive womb.
This is all grossly diseased thinking and even if you don't espouse it yourself, you seem very happy to defend the powerful men who actually believe this garbage.
April 22nd, 2014 at 11:30 PM ^
If you had to choose between Brady Hoke at Michigan or Rich Rodriguez at Arizona and there was a prize where you got to collect $100 for each game they won at their respective schools starting in 2014 season and continuing until they either got fired, quit or retired from that school but you could only choose Hoke at Michigan or Rich at Arizona who would you "bet" on?
I'd take Rich in a heartbeat.
April 23rd, 2014 at 11:10 AM ^
"But isn't what we're talking about (and what matters to us as Michigan fans) how the two coaches fared as coach of our school?"
Yes but you also have to factor in the completely different situation each man walked into....I don't think Hoke would have fared any better than RRod had he been coach from 2008-2010.
EDIT - with one exception being the enviornment would probably have been much better to an insider vs. the outsider. That would have helped a lot.
Because if I had to choose between RR at MICHIGAN and Hoke at MICHIGAN, I would choose Hoke in a heartbeat.
RR was treated as an outsider here. It was horrible. But fact is, he didn't know how to deal with it. People suggest, with little evidence, that Hoke is in over his head. And to me it was more obvious that RR was in over his head. Not necessarily all his fault, but becuase he had to deal with a lot more shit than he probably should have. But, he still wasn't able to deal with it well. The one thing he could control - recruiting and retention - was a failure. You can blame practicegate, but then how has Hoke been able to avoid attrition despite a subpar season? Maybe he's not in over his head as is commmonly argued here?
Arizona is a better fit for RR. Clearly. But, Arizona is also not Michigan (I know...ORLY?). And let's not act like RR has been supremely successful there either. He has one win against Oregon. Besides that? Meh. Hoke has a BCS win at Michigan. No, they didn't beat an SEC or Big 12 or Pac 12 team to get it. But it's still an accomplishment worthy of praise.
April 23rd, 2014 at 10:47 AM ^
I think you missed my point. I did not say who I'd rather "win more games" I asked who you thought would win more games. Clearly I want Hoke to win this contest and win big but when I look at the two respective programs it's hard for me to feel optimism for our future and it's hard not to think they are on an upward trajectory.
A big part of this, for me, anyways, comes from the frustration of Rich being given a budget to hire assistants less than 1/2 of what Hoke has been given and my wondering "what if" Rich had been given the same hand to play. I know RR can coach up an offense and now I know he has zero clue on what to do defensively. So if he had a d coordinator that didnt have as his qualification "willing to coach defense for food" sign up I wonder where we'd be right now. And it pisses me off to no end to think we're back in the same basic hole we dug for ourselves with Rich by not giving him an assistant budget worth a shit now with Hoke. It makes me mad (sorry) cause i think we wouldve fared much, much better from 2008-2010 with a competent Dcoordinator and certainly now if that regime hadnt been taken out so we could get a "Michigan man" in place.
April 23rd, 2014 at 12:16 PM ^
RR couldn't coach up an offensive that could do dick against MSU or OSU.
Hoke has never had an offense that did dick against MSU either. In fact, Hoke's best offense is still worse against MSU than RR's worst offense (tied if you remove the gift TD from 2008).
If you're going to cherrypick, at least cherrypick stats that support your narrative.
April 23rd, 2014 at 12:45 AM ^
Why do people automatically assume that when you criticize this staff it means you prefer the previous staff? To be clear, I don't want either staff.
Also, who gives a shit about comparing points for/against. In case you didn't know, wins are what matter. When looking at that, we cannot compete with OSU. Unless you are referring to moral victories, then we would be 14-0 and national champs.
April 23rd, 2014 at 10:12 AM ^
If Hoke cannot compete with OSU, why is he 1-2 against them? The argument that he has lost one game more against them than he has won means that "Michigan can't compete with OSU" when, in fact, their point totals under Hoke are identical, is asinine.
Now, if you are one of those morons who insists that any coach that doesn't win all of their games is a loser, then I can't help you. But, if you are looking for competition, then Hoke seems to be doing just fine. Not as well as he needs to, and not as well as we'd like, but I think you'd have the exact same bitch and pretty much the same results if Michigan had hired, say, Urban Meyer in 2011.
April 23rd, 2014 at 12:09 PM ^
...you and I have between the words "compete" and "competitive". I agree with you, the games have been close and "competitive", but without a stroke of luck or playing one of the worst OSU teams in a lifetime, we are not winning that match very much. I don't think Hoke is gonna win another OSU game before he is let go. He might win 3 out of 10 at best. Which to me signals, that we cannot compete with them. But that's just me, I respect that you disagree.
And no, I'm not one who thinks we should win every game. That IS asinine. Just as asinine as thinking that Urban Meyer would produce pretty much the same results if he was hired instead of Hoke.
Although, I do think we should beat OSU more often than not. I don't think that's a stretch and was the old standard. The new standard now accepts a lose, just as long as it is competitive.
Michigan was still one play away from beating OSU this year. Claiming exciting games against OSU must mean something, right? RIGHT?
Hoke is 4-1 against his three main rivals at Home (his one loss by 1 point)
Hoke is 0-4 on the road.
In that time, Michigan's rivals have had three undefeated regular seasons and 3 BCS bowl games. Only once against a rival has Michigan not been within 7 points in the 4th quarter, and never under Hoke has Michigan been down more than 7 going into half. Essentially, Michigan's rivals have been good teams that Hoke has lost to on the road and beat at home.
People will try to call what I'm doing "moral victories", but all I'm pointing out is that people that are acting like Michigan is so far and distant from their rivals are not accurate. Michigan is close. And if people are wrong that Borges was a major issue, maybe that's enough to close the little gap there is. Maybe having an OL grow up is the little difference that closes that gap. I remember in 2012 when MSU couldn't block anyone, they lost 5 times at home. OL learned to block, the offense turned a corner. If Michigan's offense can turn the same corner and the defense just remains consistent (as in no growth) then Michigan is likely 9-3 with last years schedule, and maybe that this upcoming year, and maybe good enough to take advantage of a good schedule in '15.
Applause! Best comment on this site in a long time, Space Coyote.
I don't think the gap is particularly large, but its trending in the wrong direction - the gap gets larger every year.
Goodness, thank you. We've had one season with Hoke where our QB wasn't injured for a good chunk of the season, and we went 11-2. Since then, we've needed to rebuild many position groups and deal with significant injuries, and we still put together some solid wins as well as close losses to good teams. This team is not in shambles, it's just not where we want it yet. I know it's the Michigan fan way to go overboard, but let's not.
I concede that it is probably in our best interest to hold on any Hoke decisions for the next two seasons. This for stability and player maturity reasons.
That said, with OSU and MSU at home in 2015 - we'd better have fully turned the corner ...
Meanwhile - this sucks, painfully ...
The ONLY win against OSU was against an interim head coach. If either full time coach, whether it be Meyer, Tressel, or anyone else that was the head coach from the get go I could be on board with your logic. You're totally right that UM has closed the gap from the RR teams that got blown out by OSU. But, barely beating OSU at home with an interim coach and a team that was in a downward spiral of speculation and NCAA infractions is not exactly inspiring. I will admit that it will only take a single win against them to change my tune, but until that happens I don't beleive we are that close because I think UM is getting up for a quality opponent and is not capable of playing to that level all year. Ultimately losing close games to our biggest rival is not good enough. We need to win some of them.
But I'm sure OSU fans aren't discounting their win by 5 at home to a team that had a starting QB that played WR 4 games earlier.
And I would argue that 2011 OSU team was a highly talented, if not always motivated, group, that showed up to play their bowl game that season. In fact, I think I'd argue that 2011 team had as much talent as any team Hoke has had to date at Michigan. That team had Mike Adams (2nd round), DeVier Posey (3rd round, didn't play most of the other games), Daniel Herron (6th round, didn't play all the other games), Nate Ebner (6th round), as well as Junior versions of: John Simon (4th round) and Fragel (7th round) along with then SO Hopkins (2nd round).
Altogether, that team that Michigan played in 2011 had 6 draft picks playing as upper-classman and one under-classman standout. To compare, Michigan had 5, and only 3 in the 2012 draft.
April 22nd, 2014 at 10:06 PM ^
I'm not arguing their talent. OSU has been more talented than UM for as long as I can remember...even in the 90's when UM was beating them with regularity, UM was still often the underdog and the lesser ranked team. I guess that's another story alltogether. But, answer me one question. Do you think UM would have beaten OSU in 2011 if Tressell or Meyer were the head coach? I personaly don't. This is total speculation, but nonetheless it means (if you agree) that had it not been for an interim coach UM would still be on a dreadful drought against OSU. So, in my mind until they beat them straight up, it's just window dressing.
April 22nd, 2014 at 10:13 PM ^
what many have been saying, Hoke is in over his head and no better than a position coach. Let's say that's correct, then doesn't it follow that a Michigan position coach beat an OSU Coordinator? Pretty much straight up though favoring OSU...at home for Michigan so a push. Michigan did win that game so it did come down to coaching.
April 22nd, 2014 at 10:27 PM ^
Let me clarify...I am not arguing that Hoke is a bad coach. I am merely arguing with the logic of the point that Hoke's record against OSU is not that bad. I think it is bad and for not an interim coach he would have zero wins against them.
I still think the jury's out on Hoke overall. I still have some confidence that with good coordinators, ala Mattison and Nuss (hopefully) that he can return UM to prennial B1G contender. I also think Hoke deserves to chance to coach all these recruits that he landed when they are actually upperclassman. I don't think that will really be until 2015 for the o-line. So, I think we should hold off judgement until the end of the 2015 season. That doesn't mean I don't get frustrated along the way however.
Let's also be clear: there were a number of other games last year that really decreased everyone's confidence in the team.
Hard to ignore near losses to U Conn, Akron, Northwestern, and just plain losses to Nebraska, Iowa, PSU. I won't even mention MSU...
The team just looked bad most of last year.
The OSU game, unexpectedly, was quite different, and actually encouraging. It did leave one w/ the feeling: where has THAT team been all year?
But those facts are brought up ad nausium around here. We know we almost lost to Akron, it's part of the awful dispair that is consistently talked about. The fact is, with even a below average OL instead of a historic anomaly - by any D1 OL standard - and Akron isn't a close game, UConn isn't a close game, Michigan likely beats Iowa and Nebraska, and MSU is likely at least close as the OL protects long enough for Gardner to find the receivers breaking wide open in the secondary. It doesn't take a huge step to go from what happened to it being a none issue, but people act like it's a canyon.
So yeah, the team (namely, the OL) just looked bad most of last year (I would argue most of the other positions outside of DL were at worst above average), but why does that spell doom for forever? Why does that compell people to dismiss this staff and this team and this program entirely until drastic change (read: firings) happen? And yet, the OSU game did happen, making you wonder where THAT team had been all year. So why can't people see that if this team has that potential with a below average OL (I'll give the OL credit, they stepped up against OSU), why can't people see that as hope that this team is in fact talented, and can be quite good when they execute with consistency?
I think it's fair to look at the highs and the lows, and see the lows as a team that was young and inconsistent (there is no doubt that Michigan was younger than most teams they played) and that the highs showed this teams potential when they bring it together. As the team grows, I expect them to be nearer the high than low, and I expect that high to grow higher.
April 23rd, 2014 at 12:59 AM ^
Hoke's been blown out once by MSU, lost another that was not quite a blowout but certainly convincing, and his one win vs MSU came on a last-second FG after a last-gasp pass in a game where we didn't even score a touchdown. So no, Michigan is NOT close to MSU right now.
As for OSU - WOW! You're taking the microcosm of two games (both losses) and holding up the final score as evidence that Michigan is not far behind OSU. How about the other games that preceded the matchup for both teams in those seasons? I'll help you out - OSU was 22-0, Michigan was 15-7. Again, not close.
April 23rd, 2014 at 12:27 PM ^
"How about the other games that preceded the matchup for both teams in those seasons? I'll help you out - OSU was 22-0, Michigan was 15-7. Again, not close."
So, you will whine and complain not until Michigan wins more games against OSU, but until Michigan wins more games against OSU AND OSU schedules more challenging opponents?
You must love to whine.
The difference between me and fans like you is that I look INTO facts where you either gloss them without important detail or look away from them altogether when the mental gymnastics you perform justifying these results makes you feel better.
You may achieve your desired optomist tag, but that doesn't make you sound any more realistic.
The ripple effects of Bill Martin's refusal to give Rich a lousy 100K to bring Casteel over just keep spreading wider and wider across the pond now don't they. Simply amazing to me, in retrospect, how negatively impactful that one decision has been across the program since it was made 6 years ago. I really wonder what the team would've looked like back then (and now) with a half-way competent defense to support Rich's offense and moments like these really make me sad it didnt happen.
We'll never know.
we could lament the fact that Llloyd refused to hire Harbaugh as a QB Coach back in early 2000's. Harbaugh wanted the job but Lloyd said no for whatever reason.
Would not have been hard to envision Harbaugh progressing to OC and then HC.
I think we all know the reason Carr said no. He would have been insecure about someone with a credible name and big personality working underneath him. That's the type of paranoid guy he is.
If Carr actually thought Loeffler would just make a better coach than Harbaugh would - well - what does that say about his evaluation skills and his love of Brady Hoke?
Harbaugh is a great coach, but kind of a psycho. And really, does that matter to you? He's a Michigan Man and, thus, an asshole. And if he ever went 1-2 against OSU, you'd want him out of here anyways.
This is the point where I realize I'm arguing with someone who's marginizaling himself from a rational conversation. I'd block your old man ass if this forum had the capability. Not going to glean anything worthwhile from your postings, obviously.
How old are you? And how old do you think I am?
Also, any comments about Loeffler, or do you just care to disparage his work and that of the man who hired him?
Yes, but Brandon is the guy who pulled the trigger on RR, struck out with Jim Harbaugh, jerked around Les Miles and hired Brady Hoke because "we won't have to teach him the words to the Victors."
I know. I just play "what if" in my mind and imagine our program in year six of Rich's offense with a competent defense and what that would mean. I watched Arizona this year and it made me sad for what could've been.
I'm tired of being the nail. I want to go back to being the hammer again like we were from 1969 to 2006. These last 8 years for the most part (with the exception of 2011) have SUCKED.
You don't think 2001-2006 basically sucked? Constant losses in road openers, to OSU and in bowl games were just awful. We beat up on MSU, then a clown show of a program. Hooray.
April 22nd, 2014 at 11:00 PM ^
April 23rd, 2014 at 12:37 AM ^
I think it was obvious that the program was headed in the wrong direction. The road openers took us out of NC contention very early every year, hurting us with a whole crop of kids not seeing UM as a nationally elite program.
The out-and-out OWNAGE by Tressel was the most embarrassing. Twice Michigan entered that game ready to clinch a Big Ten title against a 6-4 OSU team (2001, 2004). We were the clear favorite in Vegas both games. In 2001, we lost at HOME in a miserable performance that many OSU fans stayed home for they had so little home. In 2004, we went in 9-1 and got WHALLOPED by three TDs. In 2005 and 2006, we lost both games despite a combined 5-0 turnover advantage - a statistical marvel made possible by our coaches getting totally outschemed, especially when it mattered most.
The bowl games (lost five of six in this stretch) left us with a bad taste in our mouth every off-season.
You remember this period fondly?
Nostalgic old man feelings and logic don't mix as well as gin and tonic, sir.
That is abysmal, below unacceptable.
Whatever Lloyd's teams accomplished on the field, the damage done to the program by irresponsible stewardship, giving up on recruiting, encouraging guys to leave and not preparing one coach to succeed him (or to succeed anywhere) has already sucked up one coach and is working on a second.
You can throw a party, but if you crap in the cooler and leave, at least some people are going to remember the smell and where it came from.
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