Would you be willing to have the most corrupt program in college football?
December 8th, 2011 at 3:08 PM ^
Auburn, osu, and Oregon all were caught and although we don't know everything about Oregon yet, signs point to all 3 being let off. Getting "caught" is now a minor inconvenience rather than a reason for true concern. A little plausible deniability as they call it, maybe a scapegoat goes down and the school uses the millions from all the cheating to hire another big money coach and nothing really changes. If you believe the SEC is headed for a collective downfall, you're in for a huge disappointing surprise.
December 8th, 2011 at 3:57 PM ^
That was the problem, the only had a Miss St guy. OSU still is awaiting punishment, and who knows about Oregon.
December 8th, 2011 at 2:59 PM ^
I'd much rather make minimum wage honestly than rob people blind and sit in my mansion with my millions.
/occupy
December 8th, 2011 at 3:05 PM ^
Bad form.
December 8th, 2011 at 3:08 PM ^
To even ask the question is bad. It reminds me of that story told of Winston Churchill:
Churchill: Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?
Socialite: My goodness, Mr. Churchill! Well, I suppose -- we would have to discuss terms, naturally.
Churchill: Would you sleep with me for five pounds?
Socialite: Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?
Churchill: Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price.
Success via cheating is no success. Michigan is not a woman of negotiable affection. If Michigan is Michigan, this should never be even asked. I would sooner disband the team and go the way of the University of Chicago then win because of deliberately cheating. Honestly, Michigan already has a huge advantage, given it's history, resouces, buildings, etc. Were Michigan to ever go this route, I would personally disassociate myself from the school and the program.
December 8th, 2011 at 3:16 PM ^
Well I think the OP got his answer...
No.
December 8th, 2011 at 3:17 PM ^
People dont want to admit it, but everybody has their price. If the price for becoming the most dominant program in the world is to run it fast and loose. So long as we don't get caught I'm cool with it. Fuck, it's better than losing.
December 8th, 2011 at 3:27 PM ^
Projecting your own faults onto others is not a valid form of argument.
December 8th, 2011 at 3:37 PM ^
You're either very dumb or lying.
December 8th, 2011 at 4:02 PM ^
...but a winning football team is less than that price.
December 8th, 2011 at 3:48 PM ^
OverTheTop
December 8th, 2011 at 4:02 PM ^
So if I'm laying the wood to your GF or wife, as long as you don't know it's OK.
December 8th, 2011 at 5:45 PM ^
In my experience, selfish narcissists always assume that everyone else is just as selfish as they are, and they flip out whenever anyone argues that this isn't the case.
December 8th, 2011 at 3:17 PM ^
At question here is the basic ethical framework. To over-simplify, there are two basic choices:
- To do the right thing for the thing itself, regardless of the cost, regardless of whether or not someone knows what you are doing. You do the right thing because it is who you are.
- To base one's actions on the utility (benefit accrued.) This has two variations:
- (Positive.) What is the benefit gained? (In this case, Mythical National Championships.)
- (Negative.) What is the cost if found out? (Nothing? Loss of season, of scholarships, of program, fines, etc.?)
In the crassest form, you could ask: if Michigan was guaranteed multiple national championships, and further guaranteed that no one would ever know what they had done, would it be worth it to be the most corrupt team out there?
These are horrendous questions, and I think most of us hope we have the character and backbone to stand for the right thing, when we are under this kind of pressure. Because of the difficulty to maintain a conspiracy and keep full silence, I think that in practical terms, it would be almost impossible to GUARANTEE there would be no repercussions.
Having said that, regardless of the potential benefit, and regardless of the minimal to non-existent cost, I would fervently hope Michigan never compromises in this way.
December 8th, 2011 at 3:21 PM ^
I derive little to no intrinsic benefit from "doing the right thing" simply for the sake of doing it. I suppose some people do, maybe I'm a sociopath. I get no rush from helping people, or team building or any of that bullshit. Maybe I wan't hugged enough as a child. Oh well, so be it.
December 8th, 2011 at 3:52 PM ^
Maybe a hug will help now?
Cmon, man, adjust your morals. Q- to what extent could U of M go to win a National Title with you being, "I'm ok with it, we won." Qualifiers- example 1- they never get caught but you know about it, example 2- they get caught in similar fashion to our bball team did.
December 8th, 2011 at 4:00 PM ^
There's no "maybe" about it. You are.
December 8th, 2011 at 4:38 PM ^
Your trying way to hard to use big word's.
December 8th, 2011 at 3:18 PM ^
Not to get too PHIL 001 but I really hate that we (including myself) have all bought into the NCAA definitions of corrupt and right and wrong. Put it this way, if Michigan had a rich alumni who was willing to pay whatever it took for players and it wasn't against the NCAA rules - then I would have absolutely no problem with giving cars, tatoos, boats or whatever to these kids if it meant winning (as long as there were no reprecussions on the kids for losing). In that case, losing with "honor" would just be stupid/meaningless and would only mean that we didn't have the financial resources to win ... so we would instead be playing the bulls*** moral self righteousness card. But since the NCAA says paying players = against the rules ... we now view paying players = corrupt. So I guess in response to the OP I would say that if we could cheat and be a powerhouse and never get caught then I would be fine with it ... because the rules are stupid. Rules don't (or shouldn't) make an action right or wrong. We should make rules against things that are wrong. Big difference.
December 8th, 2011 at 4:50 PM ^
I see what you're saying, but that's a weak position. How do you define what is "wrong," so that you can make rules against it? And what happens when your definition of what's wrong is different from mine? It's impossible to get anywhere with that mindset.
December 8th, 2011 at 3:20 PM ^
I must say that up to this season I kinda nourished hopes that the B1G might in the near term establish itself--a little bit like the Ivy League--as a high-class antidote to the SEC. OSU and the Free Press (perhaps) have kinda scotched that idea, at least for awhile, along with our commissioner, whose conduct in helping OSU into the Fiesta with all players and then comparing us WITH OSU has made me think it's time for him to go.
We done good in getting Nebraska, I can see why ND would be too compelling to turn down even tho I hate them, but from there. . . let's chill and just build this thing up with a little integrity.
Wait, is that gonna be possible with Pope Urban at the helm in Cbus? I'm not so sure.
December 8th, 2011 at 3:24 PM ^
This is Michigan fergodsakes
December 8th, 2011 at 3:38 PM ^
No. And that's exactly why I don't get all warm and fuzzy when the name Chris Webber is mentioned. It's also why I don't make excuses for the entire Ed Martin Fiasco, and don't give a bleep if Webber is ever allowed into Crisler Arena again.
December 8th, 2011 at 3:42 PM ^
AND becoming the most dominant program in the history of programs...ABSOLUTELY.
...Just kidding.
No.
Anyone you are debating this with doesn't deserve to be debated with.
December 8th, 2011 at 3:57 PM ^
We can leave that for O Lie O
December 8th, 2011 at 4:06 PM ^
NO, Never, I would rather lose a lot knowing that I supported a clean program.
December 8th, 2011 at 4:08 PM ^
Would you torture your neighbor's dog if it guaranteed a national championship?
Would you burn your own mother with cigarettes if it guaranteed two national championships?
Would you cut your own dick off if it guaranteed 10 national championships?
December 8th, 2011 at 6:21 PM ^
I'm married so that means I don't get to use it anyway... Might as well get something for it...
December 8th, 2011 at 4:31 PM ^
Would you be willing to work for a drug cartel if the pay was good?
December 8th, 2011 at 4:34 PM ^
December 8th, 2011 at 4:55 PM ^
Back in the day when I went to bars, from my obsevatios the answer to your question seemed to be a resounding yes.
December 8th, 2011 at 6:24 PM ^
But hell yeah.
December 8th, 2011 at 4:42 PM ^
being squeaky clean gets you no where.
I want a level playing field where all schools follow the same rules or suffer harsh consequences. As long the Bamas, LSUs, OSUs, USCs and Auburns of the world can cheat on middlishish to bad levels and win NCs while we get 10-2 or 9-3 every year, then I say we push the envelope a little. Sign a couple to a few more than the rule says until the NCAA stops us.
No money or recruiting violations or fake jobs or that crap, but a few extra signees might help level the field. The problem is all these other schools are doing is enticing the best players with $$ and promises and then we get the good ones, not necessarily the best ones and we keep faqlling farther behind. And when the four-team playoff starts next season, we will be left out b/c Bama, LSU and USC and someone else will be there b/c they pushed the limits without pissing off the NCAA.
Generally speaking, following the rules to the letter means you will be second or fifth at best. That's just the landscape of the game. We have to find a way to get a couple of five-star difference makers each year and 20+ great four stars to compete with the SEC and Big 12. That's just the reality of the situation.
December 8th, 2011 at 4:46 PM ^
and you follow the rules means very little in the eyes of other programs and probably a lot of 18-yr olds. The tradition and the winged helmet mean a lot, but so do NCs. Kids want to win and get to the next level and if the best kids gravitate to the same six or seven schools each year, that gap will widen and those that don't push the limits a little will become Boise, and MSU when it comes to getting ranked high enough to play for the NC.
December 8th, 2011 at 5:00 PM ^
Being able to claim you do things the right way and you follow the rules means very little in the eyes of other programs and probably a lot of 18-yr olds.Why does this matter? If you knew you could get away with stealing something, would you do it? Most people still wouldn't, because integrity has nothing to do with others' perception.
December 8th, 2011 at 4:49 PM ^
CUNT FART
December 8th, 2011 at 4:52 PM ^
Ugh. No! Who are you, an Ohio spy? Seriously dude.
December 8th, 2011 at 5:04 PM ^
December 8th, 2011 at 5:13 PM ^
No. This Is Michigan Fergodsakes!!
December 8th, 2011 at 5:36 PM ^
A. No.
B. No.
C. No.
D. All of the above.
December 8th, 2011 at 5:39 PM ^
Priority 1 is integrity. Priority 2 is winning.
December 8th, 2011 at 5:49 PM ^
If Michigan was Auburn-style cheating, and got caught/let off the hook as they are, I bet most here would still be fine with it as long as there was national titles coming in every year.
Everyone wants to take a moral high-ground, but there is pushing the envelope already going on, if you think not you're incredibly naive. I would push the envelope a little further without going SEC-style, but if I was a school like Syracuse, I'd be totally for it (which is where the genesis of the debate came from).
December 8th, 2011 at 6:09 PM ^
You should probably just speak for yourself. I think this thread shows that most here would not be fine with it, unless you're implying most of us are liars as well as assholes.
December 8th, 2011 at 6:39 PM ^
I'll take 1 National Title every 50 years if it means kids are being taugt the important lessons of life, which is what college football is supposed to be about. But thats the sad nature of the game now. Unless Michigan stocks up on juiced d lineman (like LSU, Bama and Florida) we won't win like they do. Although the Big Ten probalby has a bunch of juiced olineman. Cheating is part of life and you have to accept being average if you dont want to cheat.
December 8th, 2011 at 7:15 PM ^
Just win baby!