I'd much rather make minimum wage honestly than rob people blind and sit in my mansion with my millions.
I'd much rather make minimum wage honestly than rob people blind and sit in my mansion with my millions.
To even ask the question is bad. It reminds me of that story told of Winston Churchill:
Churchill: Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?
Socialite: My goodness, Mr. Churchill! Well, I suppose -- we would have to discuss terms, naturally.
Churchill: Would you sleep with me for five pounds?
Socialite: Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?
Churchill: Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price.
Success via cheating is no success. Michigan is not a woman of negotiable affection. If Michigan is Michigan, this should never be even asked. I would sooner disband the team and go the way of the University of Chicago then win because of deliberately cheating. Honestly, Michigan already has a huge advantage, given it's history, resouces, buildings, etc. Were Michigan to ever go this route, I would personally disassociate myself from the school and the program.
Well I think the OP got his answer...
People dont want to admit it, but everybody has their price. If the price for becoming the most dominant program in the world is to run it fast and loose. So long as we don't get caught I'm cool with it. Fuck, it's better than losing.
Projecting your own faults onto others is not a valid form of argument.
You're either very dumb or lying.
...but a winning football team is less than that price.
So if I'm laying the wood to your GF or wife, as long as you don't know it's OK.
In my experience, selfish narcissists always assume that everyone else is just as selfish as they are, and they flip out whenever anyone argues that this isn't the case.
At question here is the basic ethical framework. To over-simplify, there are two basic choices:
In the crassest form, you could ask: if Michigan was guaranteed multiple national championships, and further guaranteed that no one would ever know what they had done, would it be worth it to be the most corrupt team out there?
These are horrendous questions, and I think most of us hope we have the character and backbone to stand for the right thing, when we are under this kind of pressure. Because of the difficulty to maintain a conspiracy and keep full silence, I think that in practical terms, it would be almost impossible to GUARANTEE there would be no repercussions.
Having said that, regardless of the potential benefit, and regardless of the minimal to non-existent cost, I would fervently hope Michigan never compromises in this way.
I derive little to no intrinsic benefit from "doing the right thing" simply for the sake of doing it. I suppose some people do, maybe I'm a sociopath. I get no rush from helping people, or team building or any of that bullshit. Maybe I wan't hugged enough as a child. Oh well, so be it.
Maybe a hug will help now?
Cmon, man, adjust your morals. Q- to what extent could U of M go to win a National Title with you being, "I'm ok with it, we won." Qualifiers- example 1- they never get caught but you know about it, example 2- they get caught in similar fashion to our bball team did.
There's no "maybe" about it. You are.
Not to get too PHIL 001 but I really hate that we (including myself) have all bought into the NCAA definitions of corrupt and right and wrong. Put it this way, if Michigan had a rich alumni who was willing to pay whatever it took for players and it wasn't against the NCAA rules - then I would have absolutely no problem with giving cars, tatoos, boats or whatever to these kids if it meant winning (as long as there were no reprecussions on the kids for losing). In that case, losing with "honor" would just be stupid/meaningless and would only mean that we didn't have the financial resources to win ... so we would instead be playing the bulls*** moral self righteousness card. But since the NCAA says paying players = against the rules ... we now view paying players = corrupt. So I guess in response to the OP I would say that if we could cheat and be a powerhouse and never get caught then I would be fine with it ... because the rules are stupid. Rules don't (or shouldn't) make an action right or wrong. We should make rules against things that are wrong. Big difference.
I see what you're saying, but that's a weak position. How do you define what is "wrong," so that you can make rules against it? And what happens when your definition of what's wrong is different from mine? It's impossible to get anywhere with that mindset.
I must say that up to this season I kinda nourished hopes that the B1G might in the near term establish itself--a little bit like the Ivy League--as a high-class antidote to the SEC. OSU and the Free Press (perhaps) have kinda scotched that idea, at least for awhile, along with our commissioner, whose conduct in helping OSU into the Fiesta with all players and then comparing us WITH OSU has made me think it's time for him to go.
We done good in getting Nebraska, I can see why ND would be too compelling to turn down even tho I hate them, but from there. . . let's chill and just build this thing up with a little integrity.
Wait, is that gonna be possible with Pope Urban at the helm in Cbus? I'm not so sure.
No. And that's exactly why I don't get all warm and fuzzy when the name Chris Webber is mentioned. It's also why I don't make excuses for the entire Ed Martin Fiasco, and don't give a bleep if Webber is ever allowed into Crisler Arena again.
AND becoming the most dominant program in the history of programs...ABSOLUTELY.
Anyone you are debating this with doesn't deserve to be debated with.
We can leave that for O Lie O
NO, Never, I would rather lose a lot knowing that I supported a clean program.
Would you torture your neighbor's dog if it guaranteed a national championship?
Would you burn your own mother with cigarettes if it guaranteed two national championships?
Would you cut your own dick off if it guaranteed 10 national championships?
I'm married so that means I don't get to use it anyway... Might as well get something for it...
Would you be willing to work for a drug cartel if the pay was good?
What a crazy thread. My question: Would you be willing to have everyone think you're a total asshole if it meant you could hook up with any hot girl you wanted?
Back in the day when I went to bars, from my obsevatios the answer to your question seemed to be a resounding yes.
But hell yeah.
being squeaky clean gets you no where.
I want a level playing field where all schools follow the same rules or suffer harsh consequences. As long the Bamas, LSUs, OSUs, USCs and Auburns of the world can cheat on middlishish to bad levels and win NCs while we get 10-2 or 9-3 every year, then I say we push the envelope a little. Sign a couple to a few more than the rule says until the NCAA stops us.
No money or recruiting violations or fake jobs or that crap, but a few extra signees might help level the field. The problem is all these other schools are doing is enticing the best players with $$ and promises and then we get the good ones, not necessarily the best ones and we keep faqlling farther behind. And when the four-team playoff starts next season, we will be left out b/c Bama, LSU and USC and someone else will be there b/c they pushed the limits without pissing off the NCAA.
Generally speaking, following the rules to the letter means you will be second or fifth at best. That's just the landscape of the game. We have to find a way to get a couple of five-star difference makers each year and 20+ great four stars to compete with the SEC and Big 12. That's just the reality of the situation.
and you follow the rules means very little in the eyes of other programs and probably a lot of 18-yr olds. The tradition and the winged helmet mean a lot, but so do NCs. Kids want to win and get to the next level and if the best kids gravitate to the same six or seven schools each year, that gap will widen and those that don't push the limits a little will become Boise, and MSU when it comes to getting ranked high enough to play for the NC.
Being able to claim you do things the right way and you follow the rules means very little in the eyes of other programs and probably a lot of 18-yr olds.
Why does this matter? If you knew you could get away with stealing something, would you do it? Most people still wouldn't, because integrity has nothing to do with others' perception.
Ugh. No! Who are you, an Ohio spy? Seriously dude.
a little differently.
Is Michigan a football team that happens to have a University associated with it, or is Michigan a University that happens to have a football team. Should success on the football field be incorporated into the university's mission statement?
Given the choice, I would rather the University of Michigan go the way of the University of Chicago or the Ivies than house a corrupt program that is the antithesis of what the university is supposed to stand for.
No. This Is Michigan Fergodsakes!!
D. All of the above.
Priority 1 is integrity. Priority 2 is winning.
If Michigan was Auburn-style cheating, and got caught/let off the hook as they are, I bet most here would still be fine with it as long as there was national titles coming in every year.
Everyone wants to take a moral high-ground, but there is pushing the envelope already going on, if you think not you're incredibly naive. I would push the envelope a little further without going SEC-style, but if I was a school like Syracuse, I'd be totally for it (which is where the genesis of the debate came from).
You should probably just speak for yourself. I think this thread shows that most here would not be fine with it, unless you're implying most of us are liars as well as assholes.
I'll take 1 National Title every 50 years if it means kids are being taugt the important lessons of life, which is what college football is supposed to be about. But thats the sad nature of the game now. Unless Michigan stocks up on juiced d lineman (like LSU, Bama and Florida) we won't win like they do. Although the Big Ten probalby has a bunch of juiced olineman. Cheating is part of life and you have to accept being average if you dont want to cheat.
As Brian stated:
OSU expects to win a NC every year
ND expects to win every game
Michigan people expect an intelligent conversation . . . .with integrity.
This thread gives me the FEAR.
I honestly only clicked on this thread to test my photo embedding skills with a pitcture of Miami's Jimmy Johnson