Way OT: Cinci's scouting and player development
While following the recent NFL draft I read that the #4 overall pick, CB Ahmad "Sauce" Gardner of Cinci, is a Detroit native. I wondered if he had been on the map as a recruit and whether he had offers from UM, MSU, et al. Not really: https://247sports.com/Player/Ahmad-Gardner-46041620/high-school-193682/
I saw another Cinci guy in the second round, checked his background, and found it similarly impressive. They had nine guys picked overall. I spent a few minutes looking them up. Here are their draft positions, 247 composite rankings, and recruiting class. In a couple of cases I added the commitment date. You'll see why later.
- Ahmad "Sauce" Gardner, CB, 4 (1st): 1672 ('19)
- Alec Pierce, WR, 53 (2nd): 1164 ('18)
- Bryan Cook, S, 62 (2nd): N/A (transfer from Howard University)
- Desmond Ridder, QB, 74 (3rd): 1657 ('17, 5/14/16)
- Myjai Sanders, DE, 100 (3rd): 1043 ('18)
- Coby Bryant, CB, 109 (4th): 1644 ('17, 1/19/17)
- Jerome Ford, RB, 156 (5th): 370 ('18)
- Darrian Beavers, LB, 182 (6th): 2034 ('17, 1/22/17)
- Curtis Brooks, DT, 216 (6th): 2891 ('16)
Only a single player cracked the Top 1000 in his recruiting class. Players in the 1000+ range aren't very common at the upper-end Power Five schools. Hassan Haskins is possibly everyone's favorite exception.
Luke Fickell took the reins in mid-December 2016. That means two of these guys (Ridder and Brooks) were landed by Senator Tuberville (https://www.tuberville.senate.gov/). Two others (Bryant and Beavers) look like last-minute additions to a transition recruiting class.
All things considered, this seems like an outstanding job of recruiting and player development, especially since recruiting rankings have been shown to correlate with the likelihood of success.
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Unrelated bonus (SI piece on Ojabo):
https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/05/04/david-ojabo-achilles-ravens-nfl-draft
Yes, Luke Fickell has turned into a really good coach. Is this really a surprise after all the talk about him being the #1 choice among all the programs looking (and/or thinking) about a new coach this off-season.
And the fact that known dolt Tommy Tuberville is a real Senator says a lot about the intelligence of the general electorate...
It’s also funny because Tubber is most known for being coach of Auburn, where he was hated by all the Auburn fans for whatever reason. Also most Alabama fans didn’t like him as he was pretty good at beating them. It’s a surprise he won a senate seat in that state.
What are most politicians “known” for? Largely very unimpressive lifelong grafters that have never created a thing in their life besides a duplo set.
Jim Jordan is known for covering up sexual assault at OSU...
And also for covering up and defending an attempt to overthrow the US Gov't...
Welcome to mgoblog, where we don't talk politics...unless it's leftist politics. Then it never gets noticed by mods
Politics? It's neither leftist nor rightist - it's just fact.
I don’t think it’s really “politics” if it’s something that actually happened. It’s just stating a fact.
When you take that fact and spin it with your political leaning narrative, then it’s “politics.”
Yeah, the nerve of those 'leftists' to pointedly note that Tommy Tuberville is a senator. Oh, wait...
Craig James is known for... well, you know.
Allegedly
#RememberThe5
That's a pretty common formula for politicians. Be famous but in a way most voters won't really understand why you were famous or if you were good or bad at what made you famous but it helps you stand out from other politicians. Most of the voters even in Alabama probably don't really know much about Tuberville's coaching career but the former title gets him interviews at any local tv station he wants.
3 yrs ago we beat OSU with their worst coach in decades.
Now amazing job by UM beating one of the best coaches in the country.
Funny how it works
Cinci really has no choice but to target folks in that ranking range, and there are a lot of "diamonds in the rough" at that range. Lots of those kids are potentially late bloomers with regards to size and height and may not quite have the mental aspect down yet. So it doesn't surprise me. But lets see if Fickel can keep it going.
With Cincy going to a power 5 conference, they'll recruit way better, especially in Ohio. Hopefully that means they'll steal some talent from OSU.
Even though OSU already recruits at a national level, it will still ding them somewhat in their home state hopefully.
Lol stealing players from OSU.
Yes Cincy v OSU are near par....umm. You are hoping they take guys that would go to MSU or UK.
Michigan state road that train too then it imploded.
Road? I believe trains travel on tracks and sometimes derail.
I guess I'll be the one that points out the likelihood of program steroid use. Sending nine guys to NFL with average rating of 2000, the odds are astronomical. Because without the athletic body they won't get drafted, and if they had the elite traits they'd have been ranked way higher. Let's see if I'm right years from now that there are steroid accusations.
Who isn't using some sort of illegal substances to enhance their performance in college?
I'd guess very few. So, with that variable almost a constant, one can only get so far with steroids. You either have talent or you don't.
Has Cincy's staff been the same during Luke's tenure? If so, then odds are likely they have the coaches who know how to extract the best from their players. Evidence seems to suggest, so far, that that's an affirmative.
Also have to add in the "are you all in" factor. We just saw that with Michigan. That's something we haven't really seen in recent memory. And it's difficult to repeat that year after year. Only a few coaches seem to be able to show consistency in doing that.
It’s possible many teams have a couple guys willing to use steroids. Unless it’s gotten 10 times more widespread since I played college baseball then my anecdotal Big Ten experience tells me it’s massively inaccurate to say, “who isn’t using some sort of illegal substances”. Unless you have proof that contradicts my direct experiences I would say 90+ percent are NOT using anything illegal.
for the record I got drug tested 2-3x per year at least every year too.
I call bs on steroids only get you so far! You can be 6’3 160 but if you’re best time is 4.8 in a 40, no top program is going to be interested! You can have open hips and athleticism but if you don’t have strength and speed you are a lower level recruit! What changed for these players? What is the reality?
PED’s Give athletes speed and strength they did not have! So some could have been using in hs to get higher performance but some didn’t. Either way many at UC are juiced.
Well, the argument that the 9 drafted numbers are normal considering their all five and six year guys...MSU under dantonio had all his player stay five years, and he would see maybe three drafted. Nine is excessive to me, and indicative....
I know the “everyone’s cheating but us” is a very important mantra around here but that’s a lot of young men you’re accusing of cheating with zero evidence.
If you get a good coach at a school that doesn't get elite players, you can develop players if they stay around for 4, 5, or 6 years. More important than the commitment date/recruiting ranking and whatnot is the fact that those guys spent 3, 4, 5, 5, 4, 5, 4, 5, and 6 seasons in college. That's an average of 4.6 seasons spent in college football.
You can either be extremely talented, or you can stick around in college football until you're good enough that the NFL can't ignore you anymore.
One of the problems with some of these high-profile guys that declare early is that they're not necessarily extremely talented, and they don't stick around long enough to develop good enough strength/technique.
Could be wrong but also seems harder to develop in the NFL if you're not ready. In most other sports you can just develop in the minors if need be, but you basically just get thrown in the deep end in football. And with injuries and generally shorter careers it's either sink or swim. I haven't been paying attention to the USFL much but it seems more like NFL castoffs than guys developing. Maybe that will change.
Getting players to stay and develop is huge. Hutch and Dax came back when they could have gone into the draft. Ojabo blossomed in his last year. I wish all of our players stayed around. It's one of the keys to Wisconsin/Iowa success despite somewhat lesser recuiting.
Dax was a 3rd year junior, he had to comeback for 2021.
Chris Hinton?
Chris Hinton is one, but there have been others.
Massive mistake by their family. Granted money means nothing because of dad career. You are a UDFa and got horrible advice from your advisors and NFL dad. We won't hear the full story but a player like this straight walking when his family is well off is sad.
The NCAA should let undrafted players return to college if they wish. Even if not with their own team.
It helps when you have 40 seniors and play in a shitty conference.
Give the man his due. NFL talent evaluators find talent regardless if it’s MAC, D2 or SEC. I don’t see how a shitty conference helps in the draft process.
I agree on some of your points, I also think it’s likely to have more players drafted when your team is full of upperclassmen. Playing in a bad conference when you’re loaded with seniors makes you look pretty good. Just an opinion, guess we’ll see. There will always be diamonds in the rough as well.
There's also a lot of diamonds in the rough that need to be polished just the right way. The true genius is seeing a player with some flaws and knowing exactly how you're going to fix those flaws to train a future NFL player.
Hi
How was he able to retain his 40 seniors when other programs lose rs so to transfer portal ?
Its probably an easier task, taking those under the radar guys and not necessarily chasing 5* recruits, when your fanbase and administration aren't expecting you to be a national championship contender every year. That is going to change now that they're joining a power 5 conference and they've been to the playoff.
At the Big Ten Wisconsin and Iowa seem to be good at this (thought maybe not *that* good). Keep the players around, build and coach them up. Outside the conference Boise State is another example.
It also helps to have stability with coaching, schemes, etc.
this is where i connect the dots between “iowa / wisconsin” and “steroids.”
not judging…not really. i know it goes on everywhere. those two (especially wisconsin, imo) just seem to have that stink more than most.
Iowa, Wisconsin, and MSU 100% have an in-house player performance program. It isn't rogue players using it on the side. It is built in part of the program.
As much as we may hate to admit it, MSU under Dantonio was pretty damn good at player development.
He was good at it. It helped that Michigan was down too. There is much to be said about stability in a program.
The thing that most intrigues me about the OP's list is that someone in 1999, 3 years after Kobe Bryant debuted with the Lakers, named their child Coby Bryant.
Kobe was pretty famous in high school. He took Brandi to the prom. So he would have been a national name in pop culture for at least 4-5 years after 3 in the NBA.
It seems like a good staff got lucky. No program has ever had sustained success recruiting at that level
Ah another lucky program. Can you imagine if UM had such luck.
Jerome Ford, the only one in the top 1000, transferred from Alabama. So in some ways it's even more of an outlier draft class.
He could win every game at Michigan, and if he loses to OSU no one wants him. Like is a great coach. Harbaugh is a great coach. Is this level sustainable in today's age? What is Cinci's NIL program like?
If all those players mentioned above didn't go to the NFL they would have been poached by other CFB programs throwing absurd amounts of money at them.
Impressive as shit.