VCU and Turnovers - How to Beat the Rams

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March 21st, 2013 at 11:24 PM
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Gordon Berenson
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VCU and Turnovers - How to Beat the Rams

So we play VCU Saturday. I had heard somewhere recently that when VCU wins the turnover battle, they win and when they lose the turnover battle they tend to lose. I have nothing super insightful but I did gather up the data for you all to see and discuss so we can judge for ourselves. Behold:

      VCU TO Opp TO
1-Nov Virginia Union W, 94-44 12 22
9-Nov Fla. Gulf Coast W, 80-57 14 25
13-Nov Wichita St. L, 53-51 15 13
17-Nov at Winthrop W, 90-54 13 21
22-Nov vs. Memphis W, 78-65 19 22
23-Nov vs. #5 Duke L, 67-58 10 8
24-Nov vs. #13 Missouri L, 68-65 8 14
28-Nov Stetson W, 92-56 8 22
1-Dec Belmont W, 75-65 15 24
7-Dec at Old Dominion W, 83-70 12 15
15-Dec Alabama W, 73-54 11 18
18-Dec Western Ky. W, 76-44 11 32
21-Dec Longwood W, 93-56 12 27
29-Dec Fairleigh Dickinson W, 96-67 15 34
2-Jan at East Tenn. St. W, 109-58 14 24
5-Jan Lehigh W, 59-55 12 22
9-Jan Dayton W, 74-62 12 26
12-Jan at St. Bonaventure W, 72-65 15 16
17-Jan Saint Joseph's W, 92-86 5 20
19-Jan at Duquesne W, 90-63 12 19
24-Jan at Richmond L, 86-74 13 13
26-Jan La Salle L, 69-61 12 14
30-Jan at Rhode Island W, 70-64 19 18
2-Feb Fordham W, 81-65 8 22
9-Feb at Charlotte W, 68-61 10 17
14-Feb Massachusetts W, 86-68 8 24
16-Feb George Washington W, 84-57 16 25
19-Feb at St. Louis L, 76-62 10 8
23-Feb at Xavier W, 75-71 11 22
2-Mar Butler W, 84-52 8 23
6-Mar Richmond W, 93-82 6 15
10-Mar at Temple L, 84-76 14 13
15-Mar vs. #10 Saint Joseph's W, 82-79 13 17
16-Mar vs. UMass W, 71-62 8 24
17-Mar vs. St. Louis L, 62-56 13 18
21-Mar Akron 11:03 left 1 15

In wins VCU sports the following:
VCU TO: 11.3 per game
Opp TO: 21.7 per game
TO Ratio: 1.92

In losses VCU does this:
VCU TO: 12.1 per game
Opp TO: 14 per game
TO Ratio: 1.16

So win or lose, VCU turns the ball over at about the same rate, but if they can't get you to turn the ball over, they struggle. With Trey Burke as the helm, that's a good matchup for us. That may cause you to say 'duh' but I found it interesting that there was such a stark contrast between wins and losses

Michigan is currently #1 nationally in turnovers at just 9.2 per game (ncaa.com). Go blue

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March 21st, 2013 at 11:29 PM | VCU looks very good, Shaka (Score:3 Normal)
Rather be on BA
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Joined: 08/29/2010
MGoPoints: 699

VCU looks very good, Shaka Smart is an amazing coach and I really enjoy VCUs style of play.  We will need a better peformance out of Burke than tonight in order to defeat them.  I think he is up to the task, but it should be a good battle.  Go Blue.

March 21st, 2013 at 11:35 PM | To be honest, (Score:5 Normal)
Michigan Eaglet
Joined: 02/20/2013
MGoPoints: 414

with the way we were able to beat a good team tonight without trey making a field goal for the first 27ish minutes of the game, I feel more confident in our next game then I did before today. I think Trey got a little bit too caught up in his match up against Wolters and didn't run the offense as much as he should have. That being said, VCU is still a good team and shouldn't be taken lightly, but I still feel good about how we're playing as a team right now, especially McGary.

March 22nd, 2013 at 4:08 PM | We will need Burke againt VCU (Score:1)
whitedawg
Joined: 07/08/2008
MGoPoints: 706

We will need Burke againt VCU far more than we did against SDSU.  We have lots of guys who can create offense in the half court, but Burke's ability to take the ball up the floor against the VCU press will be extremely valuable.

March 21st, 2013 at 11:49 PM | I think it's far more important that GR3 and THJ (Score:5 Normal)
bo_lives
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MGoPoints: 394

keep it going than that Burke racks up points. Other than 2-12 shooting he had a decent game (7 assists and 2 TOs). We're not going to win if we have to rely on that stupid high ball screen crap they always run. But if GR3 and THJ get hot look out.

"That's right. It's an off-tackle play. It's coming right over you. And there's not a thing you can do about it."

March 22nd, 2013 at 1:13 AM | I agree (Score:2 Normal)
Muttley
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MGoPoints: 4599

Trey's #1 job is to beat VCU's press.

That might lead to a lot  of easy baskets for GR3 & THJ.

VCU plays pesky & small.  I think a three-guard lineup of Spike & Trey could push the ball to THJ & GR3 and cause all sorts of problems for VCU (e.g. alley-oops). Or open threes for Stauskus in place of either THJ or GR3.

 

 

 

Game Statistics
Player GP MIN POS HT PPG RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FG% FT% 3P%
Treveon Graham 34 27.7 G 6'5" 15.5 6.0 1.6 0.9 0.1 1.6 .450 .728 .364
Juvonte Reddic 34 28.1 F 6'9" 14.4 8.3 0.6 1.4 0.9 1.6 .561 .711 .167
Troy Daniels 34 26.2 G 6'4" 12.1 3.0 0.6 0.9 0.1 0.9 .417 .720 .406
Rob Brandenberg 33 24.3 G 6'2" 10.4 2.7 1.4 1.3 0.2 1.3 .403 .684 .348
Darius Theus 33 26.9 G 6'3" 7.1 1.6 4.9 2.5 0.3 1.9 .461 .667 .341
Melvin Johnson 33 17.0 G 6'3" 7.0 1.5 1.0 0.8 0.0 1.0 .418 .767 .291
Briante Weber 34 21.1 G 6'3" 5.4 2.9 2.8 2.8 0.3 1.2 .418 .785 .225
Jarred Guest 33 10.4 F 6'8" 2.2 2.4 0.2 0.5 0.3 0.6 .471 .474 .000
D.J. Haley 29 8.0 C 7'0" 1.9 1.9 0.0 0.2 0.6 0.5 .571 .400 .000
Teddy Okereafor 30 8.2 G 6'3" 1.3 1.0 1.6 0.6 0.0 0.8 .351 .750 .250
Justin Tuoyo 24 7.0 F 6'9" 1.1 1.4 0.3 0.2 0.5 0.4 .212 .625 .188
David Hinton 23 4.4 F 6'9" 0.8 0.9 0.1 0.1 0.2 0.2 .444 .667 .000
Totals 33 -- -- -- 78 35 15 12 3 12 .452 .701 .356

 

March 21st, 2013 at 11:30 PM | We play them Saturday, not (Score:5 Normal)
Wolverine_In_Co...
Joined: 02/17/2013
MGoPoints: 237

We play them Saturday, not tomorrow.

March 21st, 2013 at 11:37 PM | Thanks fixed it (Score:2)
Gordon Berenson
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Thanks fixed it

March 22nd, 2013 at 12:02 AM | Well, it's tomorrow now. (Score:2 Normal)
M-Wolverine
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MGoPoints: 38868

(Who thought it was a good idea to start Syracuse-Montana at 11 then have what felt like a 45 minute halftime?)

"I love him, he's a great coach, he's a great mentor, he's a great friend. He's every single thing you want a college coach to be, and he does it flawlessly." -David Molk

March 22nd, 2013 at 12:47 PM | Yeah, but look at what the Griz were able to do after the half! (Score:2)
Nothsa
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MGoPoints: 503

Oh, wait. It was 55-17 a couple minutes into the second half.

March 21st, 2013 at 11:32 PM | Games not over yet. (Score:2 Normal)
aSconnieWolverine
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Games not over yet.

LIFE'S AS EXTREME AS YOU WANT TO MAKE IT!

March 21st, 2013 at 11:36 PM | Its like 82-40, let's move on (Score:5 Normal)
JimBobTressel
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Its like 82-40, let's move on

ATTN NBA Dads and Siblings: Have brothers / sons on the hoops come-up? 

Michigan = NBA Family U

March 21st, 2013 at 11:34 PM | what to do is not turn the (Score:0 Normal)
March 21st, 2013 at 11:35 PM | Missouri (Score:0 Overrated)
March 21st, 2013 at 11:35 PM | hmmmmmm... (Score:5 Normal)
clarkiefromcanada
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MGoPoints: 13008

Saw my Temple Owls handle VCU a couple weeks ago in Philly.

VCU will struggle with Michigan's athleticism and outside shooting. Book it.

 

 

Liacouras Center, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Sunday, March 10, 12:00 PM (ET)
VCU
Rams
(24-7)
 
Temple
Owls
(23-8)
 
76 - 84
Final
 
  1 2   Total
VCU 41 35   76
Temple 36 48   84

 

If the haters don't hate you then you're doing something wrong. - David Cone

March 21st, 2013 at 11:36 PM | Don't get the flu (Score:5 Normal)
Needs
Joined: 08/05/2008
MGoPoints: 4163

Don't get the flu

March 21st, 2013 at 11:39 PM | In many ways, the diamond (Score:2 Normal)
TheGhostofYost
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MGoPoints: 2560

In many ways, the diamond press plays right into Michigan's biggest strengths.  No doubt it will be a big challenge, but I like the matchup.

My biggest fear is how the freshman can handle the pressue.

March 21st, 2013 at 11:38 PM | the last time we played a (Score:5 Normal)
The Truth Hurts
Joined: 03/30/2011
MGoPoints: 240

the last time we played a pressing team like this was Clemson who smart use to coach with.  We only had 13 turnovers that game with cj lee and david merritt running the point so i feel comfortable with trey burke

 Michigan Football-  


 What you gonna do when hokemania RUNS wild over you?

 

March 22nd, 2013 at 9:59 AM | Don't forget Arkansas (Score:3 Normal)
Blue in a Red State
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MGoPoints: 180

We played Arkansas in 11'/12' and this year. They were super pesky both years. Last year we looked like a deer in headlights... this year they hung around and made a tough game of it. I worry that VCU is a lot stronger than Arkansas. Should be a doozy tomorrow!

No signatures, please.

March 21st, 2013 at 11:43 PM | Akron (Score:5 Normal)
Lazer with a Z
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I think the VCU/ Akron game says as much about Akron as it does about VCU. Akron looks pretty bad, apparently due to injuries and illness. They didn't have anyone to handle the ball against VCU. Ball handling is not an issue for us. 

Strive to win. If you lose....win. 

March 21st, 2013 at 11:49 PM | On numerous occasions, they (Score:2 Normal)
TheGhostofYost
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On numerous occasions, they actually had a SF trying to singlehandedly beat the press.

March 22nd, 2013 at 12:04 AM | Where was this Ohio MAC double digit seed (Score:0 Flamebait)
March 22nd, 2013 at 12:32 AM | DJ Cooper happened (Score:2 Normal)
Michigan4Life
Joined: 07/29/2010
MGoPoints: 5674

no one could stop him yet Michigan was a shot away from not getting upset.  Got to give credit to Ohio for beating Michigan and making it to the Sweet 16.

March 22nd, 2013 at 1:00 AM | Akron (Score:5 Normal)
funkywolve
Joined: 10/08/2008
MGoPoints: 1948

Akron's starting point guard got the boot not to long ago.  One of their other players injured his back in practice yesterday and couldn't play and they had 2 guys in the hospital overnight with the flu who didn't play.  Akron had 4 players out.  This game tells you almost nothing about Akron or VCU.

March 21st, 2013 at 11:53 PM | Akrons starting PG was (Score:2 Normal)
UMichClass2017
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MGoPoints: 85

Akrons starting PG was arrested for selling dope as I recall. Tough to beat a press without a point guard.  

Simply Stated Go Blue

March 21st, 2013 at 11:55 PM | It looks like (Score:1)
randyfloyd
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MGoPoints: 1042

JB needs to study the St. Louis film a lot.

Thanks for the info.

It's tough being Blue in Columbus!!!

March 22nd, 2013 at 7:19 AM | It al starts with defense. (Score:5 Normal)
gordie bell
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It al starts with defense. According to St. Louis Billikens coach, Jim Crews, 2-0 vs VCU this season, the way to beat VCU: "get stops". VCU can't press if they don't make shots.

Michigan has played well against this type of team in the recent past. M beat Arkansas this year, narrow loss on road to Ark. last season. M also beat Memphis pretty good last season, and destroyed Tennessee 2 years ago.

I think Beilein, with his young team, would much rather play a team like VCU, as opposed to a grind it out, milk every possession, half court oriented defense, Wisconsin like team

March 22nd, 2013 at 12:01 AM | I say you hold them (Score:2)
jml969
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To one bad shot and get the rebounds

Try not to become a man of success but rather to become a man of value.

March 22nd, 2013 at 12:01 AM | It's not just about Burke. (Score:4 Normal)
snoopblue
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MGoPoints: 1880

It's not just about Burke. How comfortable is everyone else rushing/handling/passing the ball up the court under pressure of VCU's press and the 10 second clock? Burke is going to need some help. Very interested to see how prepared this team will be for this press.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20130211/vcu-pr...

March 22nd, 2013 at 9:27 AM | What a great breakdown. Luke (Score:2)
Needs
Joined: 08/05/2008
MGoPoints: 4163

What a great breakdown. Luke Winn might be the best basketball analyst out there. He can really explain how teams attack and why things happen. It's either him or Zach Lowe for Grantland, who writes about the NBA.

From that tape, it looks like the three keys are: 

1. whomever has the ball has to keep their head up (not so concerned about Burke, but worried about everyone else) because that trap is coming from somewhere and if you don't have good vision with your head up, it'll be trouble.

2. Don't abandon the ballhandler in the backcourt if you think it's a man press, because they're still bringing the trap

3. Don't let them force you into the half-court corner on the offensive end, push the ball to the middle of the court.

March 22nd, 2013 at 12:03 AM | so (Score:5 Normal)
mdoc
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MGoPoints: 4951

To expand on Mr. Berenson's chart, if VCU's opponent commits 15 or more turnovers, VCU wins. If the opponent commits 14 or fewer turnovers, VCU loses. This is excepting their last game against St. Louis. 

Michigan has only committed more than 14 turnovers twice - at MSU and at PSU. So if VCU mugs the shit out of Michigan and nothing is called, or they start chucking no-look arm-punt threes with a hand in their faces that subsequently hit nothing but net, then we should all worry. Otherwise, I feel okay about the chances. Anything can happen, but I like our guys.

Trust me, I'm a scientist.

Denard: The Happening

March 22nd, 2013 at 12:11 AM | Watching VCU's defense... (Score:1)
TaiStreetsMyHero
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They didn't seem to do anything special on D. Akron was just lost with all their scrubs on the court. If Burke plays his average game we should be in good shape

I do it for my love of the Streets

March 22nd, 2013 at 12:16 AM | I think Burke will be fine (Score:1)
Dantana
Joined: 08/24/2011
MGoPoints: 40

I think Burke will be fine handling the press.

My two biggest concerns are:

1) if VCU forces the ball out of Burke's hands, how do THJ, LeVert, Stauskas and GRIII handle the pressure. Timmy is known to be careless with the ball at times and the other 3 are freshman.

2) How tired does Burke get if he has to constantly break the press by himself. Stamina could be a big issue late in the game.This is what teams like VCU thrive on. They dont necesarily force turnovers all game long, but they wear you down to where you are physically tired and thus more mistake prone in the second half. Saginaw High is a team that does this to perfection at the high school level.

March 22nd, 2013 at 12:57 AM | I think we should try Spike & McGary inbounding the ball (Score:1)
Muttley
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who then get the ball to Burke cutting upcourt who then leads a 3 on 1 alley oop to THJ/GR3 or a wide open three to Stauskus.

March 22nd, 2013 at 12:16 AM | UM doesn't turn the ball over a ton (Score:5 Normal)
ThWard
Joined: 07/10/2008
MGoPoints: 2633

But let's be honest; VCU's turnovers are largely created by their fierce press, and UM hasn't face much like it.  Not sure saying "UM doesn't turn the ball over much in its halfcourt offense" is the same as "UM won't turn it over against a nonstop press."

WIth that; VCU's got a lot to worry about WHEN UM breaks its press.

March 22nd, 2013 at 12:57 AM | True (Score:2)
Gulogulo37
Joined: 03/16/2010
MGoPoints: 260

Good point, but being a good ballhandler period should certainly mean you're more likely to perform better even against a nonstop press. Yes, VCU does it better than anyone, but it's not like Michigan hasn't broken a press this year.

March 22nd, 2013 at 1:14 AM | UM hasn't faced much like it because (Score:0 Overrated)
March 22nd, 2013 at 12:17 AM | Trey Burke is going to cut (Score:2)
TheLastHoke
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Trey Burke is going to cut through them like a hot knife through butter. As always, the outcome of the game will come down to whether Michigan makes their outside shots. VCU gives up a lot of easy buckets, and if we are the offensive juggernaut that we think we are, we ought to be fully capable of taking advantage of that. Michigan matches up extremely well with VCU.

HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD

Formerly, TheLastProphet

March 22nd, 2013 at 1:03 AM | I'd also say (Score:2 Normal)
funkywolve
Joined: 10/08/2008
MGoPoints: 1948

another key is how well UM finishes near the rim.  If UM is breaking down the press, they're going to get a decent amount of shots near the rim.  They need to convert those easy chances.  Over the course of the year all most everyone but Burke seemed to have stretches where they have trouble finishing near the rim.

March 22nd, 2013 at 12:26 AM | I imagine Bacari will mention (Score:2 Normal)
Wolverine Devotee
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I imagine Bacari will mention something about going out and having a Rams Horn dinner in the pregame locker room speech.

When the ADept sells special jerseys and gear, you'll see my picture next to the targeted customer crowd. A sheep.....but a Blue one.....

March 22nd, 2013 at 7:26 AM | So true! (Score:2 Normal)
HarBooYa
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Bacari's metaphorical magic land.

Be the change, I want you to be.
March 22nd, 2013 at 12:36 AM | For old guys like me (Score:1)
mi93
Joined: 11/15/2008
MGoPoints: 393

I'm hoping we don't have another Loyola Maramount on our hands, based on what I saw tonight.  VCU got to bump with the body and Daniels couldn't miss from deep.  That 1990 track meet was painful.

I like our chances given our ball handling capabilities.  And with any luck, they used up some mojo tonight.

GRIII should have a huge game.  The pace and spacing will suit him.

March 22nd, 2013 at 1:06 AM | I'm thinking we will see a Loyola Marymount like game from 1990 (Score:1)
Muttley
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MGoPoints: 4599

versus UNLV, which the superior athletes of UNLV won 131-101.

http://lmureview.com/loyola-marymount-basketball/schedule/1989-1990

March 22nd, 2013 at 12:41 AM | what I took away from that list was they lost to (Score:3 Normal)
no joke its hoke
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what I took away from that list was they lost to every good team they have played.

Vice.com

March 22nd, 2013 at 12:49 AM | They did clobber butler. (Score:1)
Indonacious
Joined: 01/03/2012
MGoPoints: 514

They did clobber butler.

March 22nd, 2013 at 12:52 AM | HOLD (Score:3 Normal)
Gulogulo37
Joined: 03/16/2010
MGoPoints: 260

HOLD ON TO THE DAMN BALL!

Trey should stay and return punts.

March 22nd, 2013 at 12:52 AM | We all knew it would be VCU (Score:1)
BlueDragon
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MGoPoints: 16726

We all knew it would be VCU or us in the end.

Abort, Retry, Fail?

March 22nd, 2013 at 12:53 AM | Bad Matchup for VCU (Score:3 Normal)
SF Wolverine
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MGoPoints: 356

no guarantee, but we are good (if not incredibly well-practiced) at beating the press, and there are not a whole lot of teams that can put a hurt on you in transition in very short order like we can.    If Burke can get clear or a double-team, the ball is going to move quickly to the hoop or to the perimiter for a good look at a three.

De Oppresso Liber
March 22nd, 2013 at 1:07 AM | Not only Burke, but I'm betting THJ & GR3 are faster (Score:1)
Muttley
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Joined: 07/07/2009
MGoPoints: 4599

than the VCU players.

March 22nd, 2013 at 12:59 AM | Winner of Michigan - VCU will (Score:3 Normal)
TheLastHoke
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Winner of Michigan - VCU will end up in the Final Four.

HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD

Formerly, TheLastProphet

March 22nd, 2013 at 1:04 AM | JB's teams have handled the (Score:2)
AlwaysBlue
Joined: 11/23/2008
MGoPoints: 538

JB's teams have handled the press pretty well in the past (the few times I've seen them face it).  He likes to pass his way out of it, quickly up the court.  McGary is a great outlet passer so I look for him to a play role. 

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