Study: Michigan is one of five universities whose PhD graduates account for a disproportionate share of tenure-track hires in academia
The study presented these findings as a problem and a form of bias in the world of academia, and that's certainly a discussion worth having. But still, it's good to be part of that rarefied group.
The other four: UC-Berkeley, Harvard, Stanford, and Wisconsin.
It would be great to hear the thoughts of our MGoAcademics on this issue.
September 22nd, 2022 at 12:13 PM ^
My thoughts:
Space, Bitches. Space.
September 22nd, 2022 at 12:15 PM ^
Justin Feagin!
September 22nd, 2022 at 12:19 PM ^
The other four: UC-Berkeley, Harvard, Stanford, and Wisconsin.
One of those is not like the others...
September 22nd, 2022 at 12:58 PM ^
Somebody has to train people to work at community colleges.
September 22nd, 2022 at 1:37 PM ^
This is a study of only faculty at doctoral granting institutions, so nope.
Wisconsin is consistently top 10 in federal research funding received.
September 22nd, 2022 at 3:10 PM ^
Wtf man?
September 22nd, 2022 at 12:59 PM ^
Wisconsin is an excellent school with excellent social science PhD programs
September 22nd, 2022 at 1:01 PM ^
I thought Wisconsin was a good school too until you made it obvious that was the school not like the others
September 22nd, 2022 at 1:10 PM ^
I mean I assume ShadowStorm was implying Wisconsin in their comment about one not being like the others. Berkeley, Harvard, and Stanford are consistently among the top 5-7 schools in the country, while most would agree that Wisconsin is a step below that. However, to imply that Wisconsin simply trains community college instructors is incredibly rude and ignorant.
September 22nd, 2022 at 5:27 PM ^
I thought it was Berkeley because they didn't have a football team.
September 22nd, 2022 at 1:23 PM ^
I was ready to think so until you said this, but now I'm having doubts.
ShadowStorm33 didn't say a single word about the quality of education at Wisconsin, and that was the comment you replied to. What Wisconsin isn't is a globally recognized "prestigious" academic brand, and that's hardly a controversial take that really doesn't say anything about quality.
So the inferiority complex here was entirely unsolicited and misdirected, and that says something about something.
September 22nd, 2022 at 1:25 PM ^
I was replying to Jon06’s comment on community college instructors, which he explicitly directed at Wisconsin later in this thread
September 22nd, 2022 at 2:37 PM ^
I knew Wisconsin was a good school, but I'm surprised they have made it into this crowd. Would've expected to see someone like a UVA or UCLA first
September 22nd, 2022 at 2:50 PM ^
Wisconsin is about as slept on as Texas as far as academics are concerned. Right there with Michigan and Northwestern at the top of the BIG (Texas would've been right there too had they come along).
September 22nd, 2022 at 4:50 PM ^
The Universities of Wisconsin and Texas are often overlooked on account that they're surrounded by Wisconsin and Texas, respectively.
Ditto, U of Florida. An oasis in a desert of anti-intellectual lunacy.
September 22nd, 2022 at 6:05 PM ^
Id say Florida is #1 off the radar. Great school right in the middle of didnt come to play school land
September 23rd, 2022 at 9:35 AM ^
I think you could make a similar claim about UM, with Michigan’s economy being what it is.
September 23rd, 2022 at 8:27 AM ^
The article mentions top 5 but 20% of all professors are from 8 universities: the 5 mentioned, Illinois, MIT, and UT-Austin.
September 22nd, 2022 at 4:16 PM ^
Strictly defining there is no such thing as social science. Science deals in evidence which is proven. Until proven things are called theories. Social “Science” deals in theories, assumptions, and often excellent research which cannot be proven as fact.
September 22nd, 2022 at 6:51 PM ^
Every sentence you wrote is untrue. I suggest you do some cursory research into the philosophy of science before pretending to be an expert on the internet. Science simply refers to utilizing empiricism to obtain knowledge. There is no proof in science. We attempt to falsify theories and then accept theories that cannot be falsified and have no better competing theories.
September 22nd, 2022 at 1:02 PM ^
I now feel bad that I received my PhD from Wisconsin. Thanks.
September 22nd, 2022 at 1:24 PM ^
Now an old Sesame Street song is running through mind.
September 22nd, 2022 at 4:20 PM ^
Two, right? Stanford is private, known as a conservative bastion. . . A bit more meritocratic than Harvard?
September 22nd, 2022 at 9:31 PM ^
Harvard is the only one considered the ‘Michigan of the East’?
September 23rd, 2022 at 12:06 AM ^
That's correct, as Stanford and Berkeley and the "Michigans of the West," and Wisconsin is widely considered the "Michigan of the area immediately adjacent to, but obviously not including, Michigan."
September 22nd, 2022 at 12:21 PM ^
The implications of this stratification of university faculty are profound. It challenges the belief that the hiring and professional development of faculty involves a straight-forward meritocracy.
What if these five institutions genuinely produce stronger candidates?
September 22nd, 2022 at 12:42 PM ^
It also doesn't account for the graduate degree programs size. UM has a HUGE PhD program that extends across almost all PhD fields. If the other universities have similar sized programs and together they represent 15% of PhD production across the country, then 1/8 is an under-representation of what the number should be.
September 22nd, 2022 at 1:44 PM ^
I was told there wasn't going to be any math.
September 22nd, 2022 at 4:05 PM ^
I was told there would be cake.
September 22nd, 2022 at 8:09 PM ^
There’s no chance in hell those 5 schools produce 15% of PhDs.
September 22nd, 2022 at 8:18 PM ^
The article is about tenure track professors. Basically, the listed schools train more highly-regarded academics.
September 22nd, 2022 at 12:47 PM ^
jm - as both an alum and the father of two current students at Michigan - I can attest to the rigor and expectations that classes demand - even the "foundational" classes - such as Chemistry (both general and organic) or Mathematics (Calculus).
The level of research and expectations of the Academic staff - IMO, creates an environment where "pushing the envelope" - is a given - even at the undergraduate level.
September 22nd, 2022 at 12:49 PM ^
Chem and calculus were quite challenging circa late 1990's...I can attest...I have no idea if this helps your argument or not, but here we are.
September 22nd, 2022 at 1:03 PM ^
brose - It seems as if the current approach to Calculus at Michigan is more "theoretical" than practical. So, even if a student took an "advanced track" in high school - including Calc BC - the approach for first / second year students is demanding, and much more than applying mathematics (e.g. Calculus) to solve a problem. There seems to be a LOT of theorem and proof work expected.
It doesn't make the first year - and thus far - their sophomore year - easy. But, I'm hopeful the demanding nature of these foundational courses will position them to do "even more interesting" things in their upperclassmen years - and graduate studies.
September 22nd, 2022 at 4:30 PM ^
denison was a scary building. Many times before exams I had the thought that if the shitty elevators dropped me to my death, I would be okay. Atleast I wouldn't have to take the test.
September 22nd, 2022 at 5:37 PM ^
Redrum, my first class at Michigan was in Denison. Math 215 - I’ll never forget it. And, I tutored Physics in Denison too. It had it’s idiosyncrasies for sure.
I never thought about the elevators - and your comment made me laugh. Thanks…
September 22nd, 2022 at 1:06 PM ^
Yet when I say that Michigan undergrad classes are probably more challenging than equivalents at lower ranked schools, and therefore Michigan needs to recruit football players that have a chance at completing them, I get flamed. There's absolutely a difference as an aggregate.
September 22nd, 2022 at 5:27 PM ^
Sam, I don’t wish to make a judgment - but, I will share a perspective.
If a student is in a STEM field, or perhaps Economics - the level of math required is different than other fields of study/ majors. Business, English, History, Political Science, etc - have different requirements - particularly in the level of mathematics to earn the specific degree. It may even be different if you’re in LS&A and are pursuing a BA as compared to a BS.
Michigan has great programs that demand a degree of knowledge of quantitative methods, as well as many strong fields of study that do not require as rigorous of a foundation.
When I was an undergrad - there were classmates on the football team. I’m an engineer - and they were starters. So, it’s a broad range. And, personally - I respect every student athlete - it isn’t easy to balance academics and athletics at this level of play (Power 5, Division 1A) while enrolled at a school with a strong academic reputation.
September 23rd, 2022 at 12:52 AM ^
As a chemistry major ( BS 1979 MD 1983 ) I will attest to the rigor of calc and chem back when dinosaurs ruled the earth
September 23rd, 2022 at 3:30 AM ^
Were you a denizen of the ΑΧΣ house?
September 22nd, 2022 at 12:23 PM ^
There must be a lot of journal articles on cheese.
September 22nd, 2022 at 2:03 PM ^
Thread winner. Shut it down.
September 23rd, 2022 at 8:26 AM ^
I ate a lot of good expensive cheese in grad school actually lol. They had a Thursday thing where there would be wine and cheese in the department office to encourage socializing. I took advantage of that every week.
September 22nd, 2022 at 12:29 PM ^
I contribute to this problem (x2). That is all.
September 22nd, 2022 at 12:31 PM ^
As a non-Academic PhD (way more money in the industry than in academia) my thoughts are as follows:
Yea, no shit. The best schools want the best/smartest professors. You have to be one of the best undergrads in the country to get into the best PhD programs. You then have to be one of the best PhD students to complete your work in a timely manner and get one of the best post-docs. The best post-docs who have the best publications get the best tenure track positions more easily.
It's not bias. It seems to me these four schools are better at getting the right PhD students in their programs and developing them well and preparing them better for better post-doc positions. It's cream rising to the top, as it should be. I mean, should they be hiring less talented people for their tenure track positions simply to avoid the appearance of bias?
I think, if you want to be a top school/company, you hire the best people you can
September 22nd, 2022 at 1:03 PM ^
As a non-Academic PhD (way more money in the industry than in academia)...
Confirmed 😢
- a tenured academic PhD
September 22nd, 2022 at 1:32 PM ^
yea, I took a look at assistant, associate, and full tenured professor salaries
Then took a look at research scientist, director, and senior/executive director salaries in pharma/industry.
no brainer.
i also hate teaching ... worst two semesters in grad school were when we had to TA
September 22nd, 2022 at 1:49 PM ^
Of course there is bias in Academics, the entire industry exists within agreed-on frameworks of what consistutes 'the far reaches of human thought'. If the most prominent universities create these frameworks within which academic prowess is measured, then you can be sure their best students will the most desireable hires. It is self-substantiating both today and into the future.
September 22nd, 2022 at 1:50 PM ^
It's a 100% myth that any of those schools have better profs than anywhere else.
I had some truly great professors and lecturers at UM, but I had also ones who only did good research/brougt in grants, but taught for absolute shit and treated their GAs even worse. I've also had equal or better teaching professors who were also equally as smart or smarter at EMU, Portland State, and Portland Community College.