Has how many more superbowl rings than both Mannings combined?????
Semi-OT: Tom Brady greatest ever discussion
Bet he gets his next one before either of the Mannings do....
You mean all THREE Mannings. Archie - 0, Peyton - 1, Eli - 1.
As it stands, Brady is clearly the #1 QB of his era, surpassing Peyton Manning, who has been struggling incredibly this season and has struggled in the playoffs relative to Brady and the Pats.
What about Cooper?
Played for some really poor teams duiring his days with the Aints, so we should be nice to the old man! But good pick-up!
On another note, if you were Brady, how much longer would you want to keep playing? He obviously is still playing at a very high level, but given the way NFL players' bodies take so much punishment, should he think about calling it a career soon? He's done it all and is probably financially set for life.
Have you seen him this year? He still has that fire, he's not going anywhere anytime soon.
I know he still loves the game. I'm talking about what he should do from a physical health standpoint. Those hits accumulate, and what's scary is that a lot of ex-NFL players' physical ailments don't appear until several years after they've retired. I just hope the guy isn't using crutches to get out of bed 10 years from now.
The table is set for any number of puns. At your leisure!
KO and she's come across really well in interviews I've seen. Also, Brazilian.
wait you've listened to interviews about her?
and I read playboy for the articles
Not that I'd be complaining, but chick needs to eat a sandwich.
that he still loves playing the game too much to quit. (Sorry don't have a link. Think it was in a TV interview.)
Agreed, Brady isn't going anywhere any time soon. He plays because of how much he loves the game and how much he loves to compete. He's said that a few times in the past and you can see it from the way he carries himself on the field.
He also isn't in it only for the money. His salary in 2009 was only $8 mill compared to $12 mill for Peyton, $20 mill for Eli, and $22 mill for Jay Cutler. He could negotiate a much higher salary if he wanted, but he wants the Pats to be able to go after the players they need to back him up. I'm more concerned of him pulling a Favre and playing too long rather than pulling the plug early...
Plus, early retirement to a tropical island with Gisele might be awfully compelling. Damn, I wish I was Tom Brady right now.
Should be sending the Jets money every year, thanking them for killing Drew Bledsoe.
I honestly believe if Tom wins one more Super Bowl (let alone multiple), you have to put him just ahead of Joe Montana for the greatest NFL QB of all time. Tom has never had a HOF receiver (Moss debatable), whereas Montana had Rice, John Taylor, and Roger Craig. If, and I mean IF, he can win another Super Bowl; he's the greatest of all time.
Who could have honestly predicted this Brady's senior year when he was splitting time with Henson?
There's nothing debatable about whether Moss is HOF material. Put aside the stats (not that you have to) there's probably never been a more talented receiver.
Yeah I suppose you're right. He's got some impressive numbers.
Haha, I did the exact same thing. I remember every game my dad and I went to when Brady played. Almost everytime we left my dad complained, "that guy sucks. He is never going to make it in the NFL." I love bringing that up to my dad everytime the Pats are on TV.
Admittedly I never imagined this in the pros, but I still give people shit who were calling for Henson.
I mean, I never would argue those points. I heart Tom Brady. But I think even people who are Manning fans would have to agree.
No consistent elite offensive talent behind him. In the NFL of today, with the results he's put up, that makes him easily one of the best of all time.
Trust me, Manning fans do NOT agree. They're delusional and as annoying as State fans back home
My wife has family that live in Indianapolis. Huge Colt fans. Listening to them during the summer months make me sound almost reasonable in regards to respective football expectations.
Just figured they were outliers. I mean, I've never heard any civil person say "What? You are an engineer for Ford? Why do you guys make such crap? I'll stick with my Beemer." That wasn't to me, but I guess the uncle thinks saying things like that are ok.
that Manning is being supplanted as second to two UM players. once in the Heisman to Woodson and now to Brady! Go Blue beat miss st!
for him to get comfortable again last year after the injury. But That is a distant memory now.
On the retirement thing, I think it all comes down to how much fire he has inside of him. Tom bradys game is made for longevity.
And Samuels INT drop...and Randy Moss game saving pass drop...
Only thing even still making it a discussion...
That's the samn truth.
the only reason this is even a topic right now is because Peyton is having a down year (by his standards.)
When the Colts are healthy it will be back to Manning most likely going down as the greatest ever. Hell, the guy is essentially is a head coach on the field as he calls the majority of the plays.
Has over-coached his teams into a lot of losses in big games.
but no team or head coach is always right or makes the right decision all the time.
So, the greatest QB ever has -- on a star-laden team and behind the best offensive line since the cowboys dynasty -- a 9-10 record in the playoffs, if I'm not mistaken? Really?
Tom hasn't exactly had garbage protecting him and surrounding him the majority of his career.
For example- How have the Pats D's been over the years?
No, I don't. Peyton has long had far more offensive talent around him then Brady, and a better offensive line. And just look what Tom is doing this year with no identifiable offensive players and a young, 29th against the pass defense this season. Peyton has never had the dearth of talent (outside if his first 2-3 seasons) that Brady has, yet he consistently can't cash in the fact his team is usually loaded.
*Team Def rankings in YPG allowed
2001 (first SB championship): 25th
2002 (2nd SB): 23rd
2004 (3rd SB): 9th
2007 (lost SB): 4th
Now: 31st, not including today's game
How many Super Bowls does Peyton have? What's his playoff record? I think you have to WIN to be considered the greatest of all time. I put him behind Brady, Montana, Elway, and shoot maybe even Bradshaw just because of his success in huge games.... These guys won multiple Super Bowls and had huge numbers.
Bottom line is Manning has lost more big games than he's won.
So based on your conclusion since Manning is 1-1 in the Super Bowl does that make Montana and Bradshaw the two greatest ever? IMEO, Montana sure could be, but Bradshaw? No way.
There is a lot more than SB records to define a great player. Do you consider Marino great? I do and he never even got to one Super Bowl.
Peyton Manning's playoff record... 9-9.
Tom Brady... 14-4.
I agree you can be a great QB without winning lots of SBs. But not in the greatest of all time discussion.
Super Bowl record alone doesn't define a quarterback, but it's part of a holistic look into figuring out the greatest QBs.
To answer your second question, I do consider Marino great, but I don't consider him in the same class as Brady or Montana, because he never won the way those guys did. Is that unfair? Maybe. But it is what it is.
When we look back on this generation of QBs, I think Brady will stand out as better than Manning because of his ability to win in the playoffs and the Super Bowl. Manning always had the stats, but then again, so did Marino.
Trent Dilfer also won a Superbowl, as did Mark Rypien, as did Doug Williams. A Superbowl is an important piece of the conversation, but it isn't the only part of it. Brady may well end up being the greatest ever, who knows, but if he is it will be far more reasoned and nuanced than "he won the most superbowls".
Lost to Montana's 49ers.
Let the Montana-Marino Brady-Manning comparisons continue.
To me, greatness is measured in moments, not numbers. Brady far and away, from the beginning of his career till now, comes through in the clutch and when it matters more often than Manning ever has.
How many game winning drives has Brady led the Patriots on? It's been his calling card since his first season and that incredible upset of the Rams.
How many games has Peyton Manning choked away? His MVP seasons have all ended in playoff defeats, usually because of his subpar performances.
I remember last year, when everyone and their mother was calling Peyton Manning the greatest quarterback of his generation and some even calling him the greatest ever to play the game. They marvelled at his ability to "integrate his offense on the fly". How he was able to lead such an effective unit with 2 young receivers - Collie and Garcon - while completely disregarding the fact he had a top 5 wide receiver in Reggie Wayne and the game's best tight end in Dallas Clark.
Then of course, he reverted to what he normally does in big games: collapse with a terrible decision when things aren't going his way. Porter's interception of Manning was one of the biggest chokes by a "great" player I've ever seen. If Manning was truly the greatest ever, that was Jordan missing free throws to lose a title or Gretzky missing a wide open net in Game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals. These things didn't happen. In short, the greatest ever doesn't let his team down on the biggest stage.
Manning is one of the best quarterbacks to ever play the game. But he is not an example of greatness.
... you should not spend too much time in Vegas.
The theory of "clutch" has been disproven in the grittiest of grit filled sports: baseball. In football, there's way too many variables to even try to say who's a clutch guy.
If your O-line fails you, you take a sack and you aren't clutch. If the defense dials up an overloaded blitz on your blind side that gets to you, you aren't clutch. If you throw a perfect pass that your receiver drops, you aren't clutch. If your RB falls down in the flat during a screen pass, you aren't clutch.
If your defense gives up the winning score after you just went and tied it up, you aren't clutch.
Clutch basically means that you're good and lucky. Iowa 2009 was clutch. Iowa 2010 was not. What's the difference?
Whatever. Pete and repeat went up the hill. Pete cam down who was left?
If you want mechanics, charisma, and a rifle arm, Manning is your man. If you want a winner who knows how to get to the Super Bowl and win, then Brady has to get the nod. Can we use Giselle as a "tie-breaker?"
Brady has everything you mentioned. And I still think Tom has the deadliest accuracy in the game today.
Yeah... It's pretty tough to look at Tom right now and say anyone has a stronger arm, more charisma, or better mechanics/accuracy.
I think if you look at Toms super bowl performances versus Montanas, you see another argument for Brady being the best. I do think he has to get another superbowl ring and three to four more seasons at his same level to solidify that argument. 2 more rings (getting to 5) and the entire argument becomes moot.
4 Super Bowls, 4 Super Bowl wins, 11 TD, 0 picks in those 4 SBs. Two of those SBs before Jerry Rice.
Tom Brady has had a wonderful, outstanding career, but if there's a big game to be won, I want Joe Montana under center over any other QB I've seen over the last 30 years (I'm 36 and I'm not about to start lecturing about Bradshaw, Unitas, etc.)
You know... after looking at Montana's number in the Super Bowl and considering the fact that he never lost one, I think he's still over and above anyone, including Tom. Brady's still got some years to catch him, though.
I'm with you. I lived in the bay area during Joe's glory years and watched almost every game the niners played from 83-89. I love Brady and see an awful lot of Montana in his game but I still put Joe on top. No better clutch QB I've ever seen and I'm old enough to have seen Unitas, Starr, Tarkenton (very underrated for the same reasons we love Montana and Brady), Bradshaw, Staubach, Marino, Montana and Brady.
But the OP is right on one thing - Tom is definitely in the conversation!
But he had the greatest receiver of all time, and Taylor, and Craig, and great O-lines and TEs, and an underrated defense with the likes of Ronnie Lott, among others. Steve Young showed you could win with that team.
Best QB I've seen was John Elway. Got to 3 Super Bowls with teams that wouldn't have even made the playoffs without him (quick, name me the HoFers on those earlier teams), had the biggest rifle ever, could scramble, led all those comebacks, and when he finally had a pretty good team around him, won 2 in a row and retired (having played in 5).
is to have a play-off.
(In case of a tie, we discuss haircuts and wives.)
I just hope that they can finish unlike the 2007 team. There is something about this team. The way they are playing right now, they just seem like they have "it". I am Bears fan, and they crushed us today.
How can you have this discussion, today, without mentioning DREW STANTON?
Honorable mention, at least.
that Peyton Manning is better than Tom Brady and I love Tom Brady.
Peyton Manning's playoff numbers are much better than most people realized.
I don't consider Super Bowl rings when in discussion for greatest QB of all time because it's a function of a team rather than individual. It takes 22 players on both side of the field to win a Super Bowl, not 1.
His knowledge of the game and command of the offense is astounding. He's one of the few non-Steelers I can actually stand watching. Simply amazing.
In terms of being clutch Ben Roethlisberger has to be number one. Dude escapes so many tackles/sack attempts, puts up good numbers, and IIRC has the most come-from-behind victories in the league since he became a starter in 2004.
Let's look at baseball for a quick comparison. Jeter and Wade bogs have very similar numbers over long careers. Jeter is better than bogs ever was in pressure situations. Clutch in the regular season means nothing. Ice in the veins during the playoffs is everything. Jeter and Brady will be remembered as winners
Better comparison in basketball I think
Chamberlin vs Russel - Raw talent vs rings. Lots and lots of rings.
You mean lots and lots of difference in the surrounding talent.
Could escape his tackles/sack attempts.
Looks like the Steelers will have another shot to try and beat Brady this post season though...
They carved us up in the first appearance, this one should be in NE, and our OL and DL have been slammed by injuries. Not good.
Still only one game with 3 left....it's not impossible for home field. The problem is it seems NE has done better against the Steeler in Pittsburgh than anybody else has. But defense comes through in the playoffs, and the Pats are still a work in progress there.
All the way back to college Peyton has come up small when the pressure is on. Last Year's Super Bowl INT was not an outlier.
That they keep track of wins and losses for quaterbacks. It's because they are the players most in control of the game. Manning has consistently been surrounded by a great supporting cast and has consistently fallen short in the playoffs. I don't know if you're looking at quarterback rating or what, but Manning has not been a very average playoff performer. To me, playoff Manning was best exemplified in 2007-08. The Colts had the Chargers at home, without Phillip Rivers in the second half. Manning had plenty of time to lead a game-winning drive against an inferior team and failed on 3 seperate occasions. It's just who he is.
I mean, some people do keep track of a QB's W-L, but really the main sport where an individual gets credit for a team goal is the starting pitcher in baseball, and as we saw this year's AL Cy Young, we're smarter than just looking at the W-L record when making that evaluation.
is probably the stupidest stats ever because football is a team game and it takes 22 players to win or lose a game.
The only record that should count is tennis, golf or any other individual sports because that player has complete control of every aspect of the game.
|PEYTON MANNING||Passer Rating||Completion %||Yds. Per Attempt||TDs||TD %||INTs||INT %||TD/INT Ratio|
edit: These stats don't include the super bowl last season... Which he lost.
The only guy close? Montana.
Could be by virtue of the stronger competition, just saying.
I think Brady's got a more impressive resume than Manning. Once you get passed the fact that Manning has 50+% more career attempts than Brady their numbers are strikingly similar. If you look at completion %, td %, int % and yards per play they're nearly identical. Once you factor in that Manning has had more weapons, plays in a dome and Brady's vastly superior playoff performance (not only 2 more Super Bowls, but 5 less flameouts in the first round) you have to go with Brady.
The dome is the most under-appreciated factor for me - changes the offense fundamentally, especially late in the season
It's amazing how close Brady got to not even having this be a debate. If the Pats had finished the perfect season there would not even be a discussion as to who the greatest quarterback ever is.
He'd be going for the one for the thumb, only one to win 5!!! Worst-professional-game-EVAR!
I have to agree 150%. I just love the fire he shows when he tries to pull the team up. I think this is one intangible that you cannot measure until the players time has passed. He oozes leadership.
I was in a hotel ballroom with 400+ Saints fans, two blocks from Bourbon St watching that game. When we got that pick we all knew who was going to win. Great moment
.......on the argument between Brady and Manning.
1. Manning does not have a rifle for an arm. He is merely average at best for arm strength, or does no one wonder why no long passes(like Brady or Brees)?
2. Brady, in a 15-20mph windy snowstorm, with snow covering the field, and gusts up to 30mph, goes 27-40 for 369 yds and 2 TDs against a decent defense. Does anyone here seriously think that Manning could have done anything even remotely similar? I didn't think so.
3. Brady has 3 rings and was respectable in his loss with 266yds, 1TD/0Int. Manning has 1 ring and his SB loss stats are 333yds, 1TD/1INT(a big int on what could have been a game-winning drive. Typical Manning).
Manning has always been regarded as a very good QB who couldn't ever win the big game until he won his first SB. Brady was always regarded as a good QB who was as clutch as they come when it came to the big games.
And, I will never, ever, root or like Manning for what his college coach did in 1997 simply because Woodson won the Heisman over Manning. Fair or not, I don't care, and that's the way it will be.
Maybe Brady/Montana but Peyton can kiss my taint...
... I love Tom Brady, but you guys are being way too one sided. Now, close your eyes and imagine you grew up and went to Tennessee. Would you still look at Superbowls as the number 1 factor? No, you'd look at total output, league MVPs, etc... Point is, they are both two of the greatest in the history of the sport. There is really no way of convincingly arguing one vs. the other.
Before Brady even got to the league, the arguments were there about who was the greatest, and do you know what the overall metric used was? SuperBowl wins. Montana was considered the greatest ever at the time mainly due to his 4 SB wins. The apex acheivement in the NFL for QBs is a SB win. You don't hear anyone saying how they want to lead the league in this stat, or that stat and not caring whether they make it to the SB or not. Everyone always talks, at the beginning of the season, that they believe they have a shot at making the SB.
If that is what they, themselves measure their season by, why shouldn't we? The stats you mention are merely attempts by Manning's fans to push their favorite player into, and on top of, a discussion of who is the greatest.
Right now, Montana still leads. If Brady wins another this season, one has to believe that he would be the one on top. Manning is a very good QB who can run his offense very well, but until he proves more than once that he can win the biggest game of them all, he won't ever make my list of greatest QBs ever.
Now I know Manning does have a Super Bowl which Marino does not, but lets face it the Colts defense and running game won the playoff games and the Super Bowl. Brady is more successful than Manning without a doubt. But in general I think a person is only great when those around him are great. A great brain surgeon has to have a great staff around them, space shuttles are not made by one brilliant engineer but rather a whole group. If you want to be great and achieve great things you have to be around the best.
Tom is always On Topic. Er, isn't that "OT"? Anyway, discussion of MICHIGAN MEN even after they left UM is "not off topic" nor "not semi-off topic." To me, anyway. What do I know, I used to have 300 points and got negbanged to death once.
Is Favre on top of this page, smiling at me?
is definitely the more clutch quarterback. What's interesting to me is that Brady has had far better defenses, while Peyton has had way more high-octane weapons to work with for longer. How does one handicap for that in comparing their greatness? Also, neither has had an elite (or even better-than-mediocre) running game to rely on (except when Mike Hart is in for the Colts, of course).
They're both remarkable talents, and while Peyton will make a much more fearsome run at the record books, Brady will retire with more rings. This isn't a Bill Walton/Wilt Chamberlain debate either, as Peyton has fared quite well against Brady's Pats in head-to-head match-ups.
It's a great debate, though if I ever had my life depend on winning one football game with a team assembled of my choice, Brady would be QB-1. Still, neither is really indisputably better than the other, at least in this stage of their careers.
This isn't a Bill Walton/Wilt Chamberlain debate either, as Peyton has fared quite well against Brady's Pats in head-to-head match-ups.
Maybe in regular season play, but in playoff head-to-head games, it's what? NE 3 wins to Colts 1 win?