This week's scouting report is on Southfield (MI) Southfield defensive end Lawrence Marshall. Marshall is visiting Michigan this weekend, and he has narrowed down his top five schools to include Michigan State and Michigan, the former school being the presumed leader. In him I see maybe a Craig Roh/Tim Jamison ceiling.
Scouting Report: Lawrence Marshall
Interesting that you see him as an SDE. Think he has the frame to carry that kind if weight well? I suppose if Heitzman can do it...
I think there's the potential for his career to develop somewhat like Roh's, where he starts off at WDE and eventually grows into a SDE. I think there's plenty of room for him to add enough weight to play SDE; he's thicker and taller than Frank Clark was in high school, and Clark is up around 280 now.
I don't know, chances he could end up a rush LB ala Ryan.
I don't think he'll end up as a rush linebacker. His body will probably fill out too much, and I don't think he has the change of direction skills to do that. Plus he plays DE/DT in high school, and I don't like the idea of moving guys back in a defense.
I would take another Tim Jamison
He wants to go to USC badly, with MSU as his back up. I wouldn't be crushed if he didnt commit to UM. I think the only reason he hasn't picked Sparty yet is because he's hoping for that USC offer.
With the recruiting Hoke & Co. has been doing, he wouldn't see the field as a freshman. And Roh as an upperclassman wasn't a superstar, but somewhat Kovacsian by using technique and football IQ to be a solid, dependable starter.
Only downfall is that "lazy" bit you put in there. Does he have the drive/motivation to be a workout warrior and the patience to learn? Maybe MSU is a better fit for the guy.
No offense to Roh, but we need our DE's to be more than solid, dependable starters.
But against the run & running QBs, the SDE sets the edge. You need someone to contain, play smart and let the linebackers come clean up in that scenario. Let the WDE & Rush LBs get all the pass rush. SDE is where you don't want mistakes.
Roh may have been a poor man's RVB, but not by much. And if you can get someone who is a step below RVB, I don't think you can complain. Not every DE is going to be Clowney, and we still have a chance at two studs outside of Marshall for this class.
"Kovacsian" . . . that's now my new favorite word.
Um, except for C**t P**t, but that's a whole 'nother post.
What might be the staff's strategy to make sure they still leave room for McDowell and Hand? Would they take three at that position if the two higher ranked prospects wanted to join the class at a later date (assuming a lower ranked prospect like Marshall joined sooner)?
I think the short answer to that is yes. You do not turn down Top 5 talent (Hand) and McDowell is in the running for best player in the state.
Are there that many SDE types that we're high on? I don't know of any DL close to committing, outside of maybe McDowell.
As you say in your review, many of his highlights are really more "lowlights" of the opposition. He didn't do himself any favors by including so many plays where a clueless O-lineman or TE misses an assignment and just stands there or runs by him, not even attempting to block, giving him a free shot where all he has to do is run in a straght line to the QB. He does seem fairly quick for his size, though.
We need a "Stupid Argument" moderation category.
Mouton had prototypical NFL measureables, Greg Jones was the exact oppostie. That had everything to do with where those guys got drafted.
How do you explain Eric Fisher going #1 overall out of the Mighty MAC? I mean, MAC kids are 3rd rounders tops, right?
Ohhh, you have more MGoPoints than I do, so you're smarter than me. I get it now.
Obviously there is a correlation between a school's tradition, long term success, and the number of draft picks. But to say that a 4* is going to waste his career going to a "2nd tier" school is a little ridiculous. I don't think Michigan has had slamming success in the draft the last few years either.
You're talking like MSU is in the MEAC. Scouts know about everybody, this is why they have pro days and combines
Scouts don't typically attend MSU pro days, though. It's a pain in the ass to get clearance for entry to Jackson State Penitentiary.
If they have talent scouts will show up, I think I read this year 30 teams showed up including Mike Tomlin
...read my comment again.
I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was more informing the original comment
Tomlin has his visitors badge still from visiting his starting QB after his multiple arrests.
No means no Ben
Magnus adding only the humor to a debate rather than being inciteful. That works.
it's better to start on a bad team than be a backup on a good team, if you want to play in the NFL.
artds - that was a poor argument you made. You use the "all things being equal" comment, yet compared two players where everything was not equal (in Jones and Mouton). Being the defensive player of the year in your conference doesn't get you drafted high no matter what school you go to. Denard was the Offensive player of the year at Michigan (Michigan!) and he lasted until the 5th round.
Point is, when MSU has NFL caliber players, they get drafted. The #1 overall pick this year went to a kid from some school in Mount Pleasant, MI over a more hyped player at his same position from Texas A&M. I would argue Purdue gets less exposure than MSU, and they have had first rounders and other high draft picks recently. Let's not pretend like NFL scouts only really look at the 15 best programs for their talent.
The problem is that you are conflating "national exposure" with "NFL draft".
A player at UM will be on national TV more than one at MSU, and will probably get more publicity, more love from ESPN and so on. This does not mean a lot when considering the NFL draft.
As people have pointed out, Fisher went to CMU.
Te'o was sold as a Heisman candidate and we all were forced to listen to his story every Saturday. He was drafted in the 2nd round despite being the most discussed college football player in the country.
National exposure is not necessarily correlated with NFL draft status. But I think you know that, you're just backpedaling from your first, worse argument.
MSU is a top 40 -50 program nationwide, the last four or five years they have been a consistent top 30 program with a couple real good teams.
Are we better than MSU at life? of course. but I think your argument sounds igorant and ripe with sour grapes...
Firstly, it's rather facepalm-worthy to say "all other things being equal" when your example was Mouton vs. Jones. At least acknowledge your example sucked.
Secondly, we're not talking about Alcorn State where Donald f'in Driver gets drafted with a team's last pick and only because someone on the inside brought up his name. We laugh, but MSU is still a Big Ten program that produces guys who can make an NFL roster.
This evaluation does not leave a ton of room to get excited about him...a servicable player that will never be a superstar...ugh. I wish the kid the best that was a bit of a buzz kill.
Well let's not get carried away with the negatives based on one review. Projecting players' futures is probably more art than science, and technique can be taught. Size and speed, not so much. A lot does depend on the player's attitude and willingness to work to improve.
this is the review of Magnus. Just one person who has been horribly wrong and incitefully correct at times in the past...
I bounce back and forth with magnus cause I appreciate his willingness to share his oppinions and defend them but I also think people need to keep in mind that his rankings don't carry any special weight; it isn't like he gets to watch too many of the players in person or even talk to people who see them play in person.
like I said, its just one review. If you are so inclined you could go watch some youtube clips, start your own website and you will have the same validity as Magnus...
incite MGoRiots here on the blog with his insights, but I have never heard of anyone being "incitefully correct."
Learn somethin' new every day, I guess.
well played... too bad i wasn't using a play on words with incitefully correct cause that would work with Magnus...
insight, incite, just like potato and potatoe
I was thinking about that, and figured he meant Mike Cox getting drafted. That could possibly be incitefully correct.
Uhhh, no, I wouldn't. Nor would a lot of fans.
I don't regard Magnus's opinions as the sole gospel about any player, any more than I'd regard Sam Webb as the only arbiter of truth, but both guys know a lot more about various aspects of football and recruiting than I do. On occasion I disagree with some of Magnus's conclusions, but so what? Without differences of opinion, MGoBlog would have no reason to exist, nor would most of the internet.
I mean, feel free to get excited about whomever you want. This is just my evaluation. Now I feel like we need pictures of Kate Upton to cheer you up...
Not sure that most highlight films are not actually more "lowlights" of other teams. Especially for this type of position. D. Green seems to be a great prospect but some of the teams on his film didn't look that good and their records confirmed that. With that being said, it doesn't mean the player is necesarilly lacking. I will take Mattison's eye and intuition anyday over the mullings of someone who hasn't watched a player in person.
You make a great point regarding the eye of our own staff to decide who they want to offer. I do trust Mattison and the coaching staff (obv. Hoke) to decide who they'll pursue. I also think that a bird in the hand (within reason) is better than two in the bush. (That is to say, I definitely want Hand and McDowell, but don't think it is worth slow playing Marshall.) If both Hand and McDowell want to come to Michigan, I trust we'll find a way to make it happen.
I also think we are now entering a period of enough depth where you can redshirt someone like Marshall. The competition in practice sometimes allows someone who you have moderate expectations for to really rise to the top. An (unfortunate) example of this is Hankins. He should have been offered at Michigan, and he did well at Ohio. If we bring on Marshall, he'll know and we'll know inside of two years whether or not he has what it takes to see the field regularly. If he does, it validates the offer. If he doesn't, well, he is depth, or he can go the way of Ringer. There is no perfect way to predict who will pan out, and you're always going to have some attrition. Honestly, bringing on guys with decent potential who still have to be coached up is a great way to improve. (i.e., I want more high ceiling guys who still have a ways to get there.)
You often see defensive linemen blowing up blockers, using hump moves, swim moves, rip moves, etc. I don't think the DE position lends itself to opponents' lowlights any more than any other position.
You won't ever hear me suggest that I'm a better evaluator of talent than Mattison, but there's a decent chance that he has never seen Marshall play football in person, either. He has probably seen game film and/or camp film, but I don't know if Marshall attended Michigan's camp (here's at least a partial list of participants from last summer). For all any of us know, Mattison okayed extending the offer to Marshall based on perhaps a little more film than is available to us on the internet.
Again, he's a better coach than I am, and I'm perfectly capable of being wrong.
I think you're underplaying the amount of tape the coaches watch. You go off of highlights. I promise you the coaches watch entire games. These game films are not available to us on the internet.
I played college football, and my high school coach sent hundreds of game films to various schools. Some of them were of my poorer performances. Highlight tapes are often used to introduce a kid to a school, but when considering who to offer, the schools watch multiple games. Often in person.
I think you have a fine site, but let's not pretend you watch as much film as coaches do. You don't, because you can't. There's nothing wrong with that.
My entire second paragraph was devoted to explaining that Mattison has probably watched game film of Marshall. I guess you missed that section.
Looks like he has offers fron OSU, Michigan, Michigan State, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Nebraska and Ole Miss, etc...Must have something going for him
I'm sure Jerry Montgomery was following him while at Michigan, so it's not a huge surprise that he would get an offer from Oklahoma.
He does have something going for him. Thus the "Strengths" section.
Magnus, have you done a Jabrill Peppers scouting report?
Next week I'll do a linebacker, and the following week will be a cornerback. The corner will probably be Peppers, unless something drastic happens.
I'll help you with Jabrill Peppers scouting report:
Strengths: All of them.
TTB Rating: Eleventy Billion.
Not that we didn't already know that though.
One weakness is that he probably won't stay for four years.
Magnus, your evaluation is based 100% on his highlight reel(s)?
I ask because I assume the coaches focus more on camp performances, which allow them to see how the player performs against better competition, and to evaluate things like coachability, which can't be determined until you've actually worked with the player.
That's not to say that Magnus's evaluation isn't legitimate, or appreciated, just that it's based on a very particular data set.
I'm not sure if the coaches have seen him at camps, but they have almost surely had more access to him than I have.
Magnus what do you think about a guy like Garrett Dickerson who is still sporting michigan in his top 5 and talk about them in most of his interviews? Im not sure if he was offered as a tight end or defensive end but could he be a guy who the coaching staff would take if they dont land two of the three top defensive line guys on the board right now?
I believe they were originally looking at him as a tight end, but now that Bunting committed, the coaches want him for defense. I think he's below the top two defensive ends (McDowell, Hand) on the board but - with the caveat that I haven't fully scouted him - I did like his film better than Marshall's.
I will beat this drum until signing day (or if he commits to us) but what about Gelen Robinson? He doesn't have the height (though he could have a GRIII-like late growth spurt) but he seems to have everything else and has been impressing at camps lately. I'm not saying he;s better than McDowell or Hand certainly, but he seems to be as good as anyone else on our board and could play either WDE or SDE.
He looks to me like a better version of Jibreel Black.
He doesn't look anything like Jibreel Black to me. I wouldn't be disappointed if the coaches offered Gelen Robinson, as long as the coaches were/are able to get one of those higher rated guys, too (Hand or McDowell). But I do think Robinson is small-ish and might get swallowed up by decent offensive tackles.
See, usually those All-American wrestling types are good at not getting swallowed up, just because they have such great strength and leverage, not to mention better than average use of their hands.
Your'e right that he's small-ish, but he's as tall as Black or Clark and probably an inch shorter than Heitzman. And I just have to assume he'll grow another inch or two, since his dad is 6'8" and his brother is 6'6". Yes, sometimes families have that kind of disparity, but usually they don't, and even GRIII added a couple inches late. I think he was listed at 6'4" when he committed to us.
I'm not sure I agree. Yes, they are usually good with leverage and using their hands, but they often seem to be interior players like Mike Martin, Brady Pallante, etc., who are hand fighting with 6'2"-6'4" guards and centers. That's different than playing against 6'6" or 6'7" offensive tackles.
You're right, it is, and I agree it's less of an advantage for an end, but I still think it is an advantage. Those guys are also typically stronger for their size than a non-wrestler would be, and often have a quicker first step as well (and I definitely think Gelen does). I also think that his weight right now isn't indicative of where he'll be in college because he has needed to cut weight every off-season. Let him take an off-season of bulking up instead of trimming down, and he could be Frank Clark-sized as an underclassman.
I can't decide where I think he'll play, because I think he probably has the athleticism to play WDE, but I also think he could easily play at a size big enough for SDE. Considering Taco is kind of in that same boat, I'd bring Gelen in and play him wherever Taco doesn't. If Taco is a WDE, then we didn't have any SDEs in that class, and vice versa if Taco moves to SDE at some point.
I like Gelen too, but I like him more as a SAM rather than a WDE.
Yeah, I think that would be the best place for him if he were to come to Michigan. He supposedly moved to LB in 2012 (after previously playing DE) in an attempt to get more college exposure because a lot of teams thought he would be too small to play DE at the next level.
Yeah, not me. I see him as a SDE more than a WDE, if anything. I just think he'll be able to pack on a ton of weight at the next level, once he's done wrestling.
That's what I thought too watching his film, but because he isn't in the top tier I don't hear much about him
Is Craig Roh/Tim Jamison, those were pretty solid players and I'm thinking Craig Roh playing with a A senior line of himself, Byron Mone, Hand, and McDowell would look at lot better than 2012's Craig Roh so I hope he is at the least another Roh.
a comparison to Wormley make sense? Slightly different position, but seems like similar play styles.
Well, according to the recruiting services at the time, Wormley was 6'7" and 290 lbs. Marshall is listed at 6'4", 225 lbs., tops. I mean, I guess you can compare him to whomever you want. I gave a couple suggestions of recent vintage.
I see a couple of the perpetual neggers have had a field day with this thread.
That's just racist. Reminds me of the South Park episode on Wheel Of Fortune.
That's one of the craziest episodes, and (like many episodes of that show, I suppose) one of the ones where you want to watch it by yourself because you feel bad about how hysterically hard you're laughing.
Yeah, I did a double take after reading that one.
threads posted on here now.
Sparty have anything but if they get Marshall and we get McDowell and Hand, i honestly couldn't complain
That would be great if Michigan can swing this guy. He seems like a great player and could greatly contribute to Michigan. And he could beat little brother four straight years.