Player development under Hoke
First, I need to commend our young men that actually wear the uniforms. They come to work every day and play their hearts with pride and they sacrifice their body every single day. They don’t deserve their embattled, bewildered coach despite how likeable he is, and clown show that is the athletic department. These young men come to be a part of the tradition, the prestige and historic allure that the program has built over time. They come to because they are confident that the program and coaching staff has enough talent and resources to develop them enough to give them a shot. Unfortunately, everyone has lost confidence fast that the current staff can develop raw potential into polished NFL-caliber players. This is not at all an exhaustive list, but here are just a few notes on the underwhelming performance of players Hoke & staff have been charged with developing:
Denard Robinson – his best year was 2010, last year of rich rod. He lived off the zone read, screens and slants. Where he truly got dubbed ‘electrifying.’ Maybe its because defenses started keying in on him more, new system, etc. Borges ruined him, and it was Hoke’s fault for letting him.
Devin Gardner- 5* talent by all accounts coming out of HS. Has spent most of his career under Hoke and has not progressed at all, even regressed at times. Underutilized in his skill sets. A leader on this football team, a shame Hoke won’t make him a captain his senior year.
Everyone on the O-line - name me one O-lineman that has really “gotten it” over the last few years? I even submit that Lewan’s ceiling could have been higher. He made a mistake coming back, I thought that both before the season and after. Kalis, where art thou?
Jake Ryan – I won’t be too hard on Hoke because of the injury, but by many accounts of poster on this board and the UFRs, Jake is not exactly lighting it up at MLB. Coaching?
Countess – I guy we were all excited about when he was starting 5-6 game into his freshman year. Has been getting beat consistently all year. Again, injury caveat.
Frank Clark – love this guy. But ever since the hype train left the station in camp last year, I haven’t seen too many ‘monster games’.
And what will come of Bolden, Peppers, Kalis, Wormley, Taco, or any of our monster O-line classes? Who else?
We’ve had a rough few days but it’s not the real reason Hoke needs to go. Even if everything miraculously blows over, the results are in on a lot of these guys and if I am a recruit and his family and it comes down to who is going to get me the best shot at taking my game to the next level, I am going to that system, to that school, to that coach – which is exactly what we need to get back to. We’ve been there before, we’ll get back there again, but not with this guy. Even if Hoke miraculously beats MSU, let alone Rutgers, and keeps his job in 2014, will he ever be better than a 9-4 coach? Let alone win 12,13,14 or 15 games?
Get busy livin, or get busy dyin.
October 1st, 2014 at 8:53 AM ^
So if this huygs legs arent strong enough then he is pretty much dead right? Thats gotta be the dumbest shit Ive ever seen...
October 1st, 2014 at 7:40 AM ^
I didn't know he could play.
October 1st, 2014 at 12:38 AM ^
All comes down to how the O-line development has been utterly non-existent. Doesn't help that RR didn't recruit any for two years for whatever reason.
October 1st, 2014 at 8:05 AM ^
Well he did. In 2011, we had Miller, Tony Posada, Chris Bryant and Jake Fisher in the class. Then Fisher left because Brandon is incompetent, Posada never made it to camp and Bryant got hurt.
Hoke also could have poached numerous generic 3-star linemen if he was so inclined. He did so in a lot of other positions (Heitzman, Tamani Carter, Bellomy). That would have at least increased depth.
If you're looking at blame assessment its about 70% Brandon for firing RR when he did and giving Hoke little time to recruit, 20% Hoke for not picking up any O-Line recruits and I guess 10% RR for not knowing he was going to be fired and not telling Jake Fisher to stay at Michigan no matter what.
October 1st, 2014 at 8:25 AM ^
2010 lone OL recruit Christian Pace - IIRC career ending injury , never played.
October 1st, 2014 at 12:40 AM ^
Are you even reading the UFR? Or is this a drunk post?
Ryan's got a little Jonas Mouton in him, but he plays at a high level most of the time.
Countess isn't a complete corner, but he does do some things very well.
Frank Clark is playing at a high level. I don't even know what to do with this one. Are you even watching the games or reading...anything?
Bolden is generally playing well, Wormley and Taco are young but showing improvement, and Peppers has looked good in limited action. Defense is fine. What are you going on about?
What I mean to say is: tl;dr, obnoxiously redundant post.
October 1st, 2014 at 12:46 AM ^
My point on Bolden, wormley,taco, peppers is that the talent is there and they are fine, but will they get developed over the next 4 years? The Jury is outon Hokes ability to develop them, did you read the post?
On Frank Clark and Countess - yeah they are pretty good but where has the improvement been? Marginal? Especially Clark.
Ryan - have you read the UFRs this year compared to previous years UFRs?
October 1st, 2014 at 12:53 AM ^
Clark was a high school safety and arrived on campus about 60 pounds lighter than he is now. I don't even know what the shit you're talking about. He's better than he was last year, and he was better last year than he was in 2012. Clark is perhaps the strongest case for defensive player development in the Hoke era and you're pretending he's the opposite.
Ryan's settling into a new, very different position. Did you expect him to just translate instantly? He's much better than I expected, especially after that first game where he looked dodgy. Again, I don't know what to tell you.
There are plenty of examples of failed player development, but not only did you choose some of the worst possible candidates, but this topic has been beaten to death.
October 1st, 2014 at 1:01 AM ^
We've been hearing how Frank Clark was going to have a breakout season every year since 2012 and it never happens.
He's gotten slightly better, but come on. The guy is a beast but doesn't play like a beast for an entire game...like unnamed guys on other teams have said.
October 1st, 2014 at 1:05 AM ^
Define "breakout season" Are people expecting him to be a Brandon Graham clone? Because those people are delusional. He was playing at a high, consistent level from about Penn State and onward last year. Do you not understand football? Defensive line players can play very well and not rack up a ton of numbers, even a weakside end.
October 1st, 2014 at 8:44 AM ^
Because Frank Clark is a waste of space on 60% of plays, not disciplined, not holding the C gap, inconsistant pass rush.
Quite honestly, I'd rather see Wormley as the SDE and Taco as the WDE, I think we would be a lot more productive against the run.
If I were an O coordinator I would be running counter's and power plays to his side all the time, he takes himself out of a lot of plays with the way he shoots up field.
October 1st, 2014 at 8:19 AM ^
What? He was All-B1G last year! He'll probably be drafted in the third round!
October 1st, 2014 at 1:03 AM ^
So, just to bring it back to the original point... You are disagreeing with me that Hoke has not developed his players well? Big time recruits regard Hoke as a guy that will get them to the league? He is capable of leading this or future teams to regular double digit win seasons?
Maybe Ryan and Clark are debateable at this moment in the season but the overall point is not.
October 1st, 2014 at 1:06 AM ^
I agree with your obnoxiously redundant point, but you used some extremely stupid examples to support your case. It IS possible to criticize an argument one agrees with, you know.
October 1st, 2014 at 1:08 AM ^
cmon man, give me a hug.
October 1st, 2014 at 8:18 AM ^
October 1st, 2014 at 9:45 AM ^
It's an incomplete argument. Bolden went from looking absolutely lost to being one of the 2-3 best LBs on the team in a year. Clark looks like an NFL player right now; same with Henry. Ryan is doing quite well given his position change, and the defensive system has changed quite a bit since two years ago when Jake Ryan was "JMFR"
The player development argument for Hoke always comes down to running back and QB for me, and that falls more on his pigheadness about running a crappy offense for the talent available than palyer development. Denard and Devin never seemed to regress as much as they kept being put in dumb playcalls that led to them getting skittish and making mistakes; put Devin or Denard in OSU's offense tomorrow and they'd destroy people. As for RB - that's mostly Fred Jackson at this point, a guy who has been here through 3 administrations and basically has Mike Hart and Chris Perry as semi-good RBs in the past 10-15 years.
October 1st, 2014 at 8:03 AM ^
http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/comic-relief-brady-hoke-goes-church-espns-b…
And tell me enough of our players have developed as they should have.
October 1st, 2014 at 8:07 AM ^
A quibble: I think a big problem right now is that the defense is fine, rather than a spectactular all-wrecking unit. They've got veterans and highly ranked recruits up and down the defense and really are no better than the 2011 or 2012 defenses.
October 1st, 2014 at 8:41 AM ^
30 pts to the mighty Golden Gopher offense...wouldn't exactly call that fine.
October 1st, 2014 at 9:04 AM ^
Sigh, how do so many people always just point out the point total as proof that the defense is not playing well. First of all you do know 7 of their points was off a pick 6 right? How is that the defenses fault?
Minnesota had a field goal drive of 7 plays for 8 yards. Defense really let the team down there, giving up 8 whole yards and allowing the other team to score points. They had another field goal drive of 37 yards and their last TD drive went all of 30 yards, what a poor effort by the defense.
The defense is not the soul crushing, offense wrecking unit we all want it to be, and it did not have a dominating performance vs. Minnesota by an stretch. But it also isn't that bad, nor the main problem with this football team. Stop just randomly throwing out point totals as proof that the defense is no good, at least dig a little deeper and try to bring some actual criticism.
October 1st, 2014 at 10:10 AM ^
TCU gave up 7 pts to Minnesota. TCU is a wholly middle class Big 12 team. David Cobb had less than 50 yards all game vs TCU. They targeted him and destroyed Minnesota by ending him. Cobb had more than 50 yards by Minnesota's 2nd drive vs UM.
October 1st, 2014 at 9:12 AM ^
...after subtracting the Morris Pick Six.
But point made. The Gophers aren't exactly what you'd cal a high-powered offense.
October 1st, 2014 at 9:47 AM ^
And Minnesota basically started on their side of the field for the entire 3rd quarter because of poor punting. They also had a couple of drives start off TOs deep in Michigan territory. It isn't a wrecking unit, but they gave up 23 points on 70 plays with an offense that couldn't stay on the field for more than 4 plays at a time.
October 1st, 2014 at 12:33 PM ^
On defensive efficiency we're a middle of the B1G team. That is taking into account the field position issues.
We're behind - Penn St, Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, and Michigan St.
Teams haven't put up a lot of yards on Michigan, because they haven't needed to.
This is a defense starting:
Beyer: SR - 4 star recruit
Clark: SR - 3 star
Glasgow: RS SO - 1 star
Henry: RS SO - 3 star
Ross: JR - 4 star
Ryan: RS SR - 3 star
Bolden: JR - 4 star
Lewis: SO - 4 star
Taylor: SR - 4 star
Wilson: JR - 4 star
Clark: RS SO - 3 star
Countess: RS JR - 4 star
Their backups include: 5 star: Ondre Pipkins, Jabrill Peppers 4 star: RJS, Ben Gedeon, Terry Richardson, Delano Hill, Tom Strobel,Mike Mcray, Taco Charlton, Henry Poggi, Ross Douglas, Dymonte Thomas, Michael Ferns.
They aren't young - Only ONE starter who has been on campus less than 3 years (Lewis). They aren't lacking raw talent- only one starter who was less than a 3 star (Glasgow), and a total roster that includes 21 4or 5 star recruits. ...but they are a middle of the pack B1G defense. That seems like sub par development to me.
October 1st, 2014 at 8:38 AM ^
Come on...when are we going to stop drining the Frank Clark kool aid? He has never lived up to the hype...1.5 sacks in 5 games...high level?
October 1st, 2014 at 9:51 AM ^
Well, Jadeveon Clowney only had 3 sacks in his final year. Talk about a bum - Texans must be kicking themselves for drafting him so high. Anbd a little closer to home, Mike Martin had 3.5 sacks his senior year.
I know it's an extreme comparison, but looking at 1 stat and using that as proof of your point is lazy and completely undercuts whatever point you are trying to make.
October 1st, 2014 at 10:12 AM ^
Clark is not an all destroying tornado but he is being mocked 4th/5th roundish in the draft so at least is contributing. There are bigger issues than Clark.
October 1st, 2014 at 12:53 AM ^
Guy preaches in the trenches football and line play and hasn't produced on either side of the ball.
All we want is a top 20 team to go with out top 20 recruiting classes.
October 1st, 2014 at 12:59 AM ^
countess is jst an ok cornerback at best even worse the better the wideout last year bowl game showed that he had picks last year but most of them were off tips n bad throws he wasnt locking anybody down he should not be wearing numer 2
October 1st, 2014 at 1:02 AM ^
And actually, ball skills and baiting QBs into throws are two of Countess' strengths, so this is stupid, even for a drunk post.
October 1st, 2014 at 1:39 AM ^
I think on a whole relative to stars this team lacks development. This is evident on the field. If we had 20 future NFL players (not saying 1st-3rd round picks but guys who will get in the league as UDFAs, 6th rounders) even a horrid coaching staff wouldnt stop them from being competitive with frigging Minnesota or Utah - 2 incredibly mediocre teams - at home. Baby seals put up 400+ yards on Minnesota this year. The 97 team had 31 guys sniff the league - I doubt this team has 15.
That's at the macro level. At the micro level it is very weird. (and I am not in the camp that Frank Clark has not developed at all, he is the only playmaker of all the DEs) - we are developing 3 stars. Our 5 stars and 4 stars on the other hand are missing way too much.
Best players now - Jake Ryan, Frank Clark, Funchess. That is two 3 stars and a 3/4 combo. Willie Henry is the next potential "star" on defense and is also a 3 star. The only other guys I see right now with super high ceilings are Mone (and thats projecting only because he is starting as a freshmen, not that he is dominating - nor should he at this age), Peppers (mostly on hype - he has been injured most of the year and dominating Miami of OH doesnt tell me much), Butt, and Lewis (due to 1 game). Almost all these guys are on defense.
None of the WRs have star potential that I see after Funchess leaves, none of the RBs do that we see - we've moved on to great hope on Green to great hope on Isaac. The true reason? Because the guy we've never seen is always the great hope. Who is a Tyler Lewan, Jansen, Jake Long type on the line? Nobody. Mone is your only hope. The QB situation looks hopeless right now. We have a potentially great TE. The offense is a wasteland.
Two of our 5 stars are beaten out by Glasgow brothers. The other is a very average back. Sorry guys he is just is - I see Georgia's 3rd string RBs with more burst than Green. Yes he has a crap line but 4-5 carries a game he should do something exciting, even if the other 15 he runs into a wall. He doesn't. Green wouldnt start for any of the 1990s Wolverine teams. So that is three 5 stars who right now look anywhere from average (Pipkins, Green) to WTF (Kalis).
Meanwhile Malik McDowell (also a 5 star) is a starter on one of the best defenses in the Big 10 as a freshmen. And already their 2nd best DT. And that team has a 1st round DE, a 1st round corner, a 1st round QB (all of which are underclassmen early entry types) and a 2nd round safety.
I just don't see the talent, speed, explosion, anything out there other than a handful of guys and I watch a lot of NCAA games - ask any of the guys on the Saturday noon, afternoon, and evening threads. We discuss the lack of explosive UM players every damn week.
Even if Harbaugh shows up Dec 1, this team is 24 months away from really being competitive for the Big 10 title. Maybe 36. People are still living in a world of starz rather than looking at what is actually on the field. We lose Ryan, Clark, and Funchess (most likely next year) meaning we return Butt and Henry and Lewis and Peppers and a lot of "solid" to "average" players. And very few NFL players.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:21 AM ^
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October 1st, 2014 at 3:11 AM ^
I would draft a punter in the first round before I drafted Cook in the first round. However, in mock drafts, Cook has been put in the first round by a few "experts"
October 1st, 2014 at 8:26 AM ^
Probably. I would think he would go in the first round 2-3 picks after Shane.
What? Too soon?
October 1st, 2014 at 10:21 AM ^
Cook is being mocked as the 3rd to 5th QB taken next year on various boards. I follow about 5 mock draft sites (WalterFootball, CBS, ESPN, etc) since being a Lions fan that is our Super Bowl. He is in the 2nd tier with the Hundleys of the world after Mariota and Winston. He won't fall past the 2nd round with the lack of pro style QBs in the NCAA.
One example of many here - he is 14th overall.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/nfl-draft-scout/24729799/mock-draft-…
Walter Football has him 37th, very early in the 2nd etc
October 1st, 2014 at 4:52 AM ^
October 1st, 2014 at 8:46 AM ^
And as Desmond mentioned on Game Day...in his opinion there is a major lack of drive for anyone on this team to get better. The ONLY guy he menioned was a true freshman (Peppers). Doesn't say much when a true freshman is the ONLY guy out of 115 with that extra drive to improve.
October 1st, 2014 at 1:51 AM ^
Here are the 2012 4/5 stars - the miss rate is far too high. These are already RS SO or JR, by now they should be making impacts and showing us big time plays here or there to show they are going to be top line guys in 2015.
5 stars
- Kalis - mostly beaten out by Glasgow; some blame health - was supposed to be the "most college ready OL".
- Pipkins - didnt impress even when healthy. Was solid not great or well above average. Beaten out by a Glasow. On UFR for Utah Brian said he didnt even play. It is one thing to be beaten out by someone else; it is quite another to not even get on the field as a rotation guy.
4 stars
- Bars - nowhere to be found
- Richardson - buried on depth chart
- Royce Jenkins Stone - basically a special teams player for 2 years. Tried on defense a few times this year with bad results
- Ross III - position change seemed to have killed him. Was one of our most productive players for 2 years and now a bit player who has been completely erased out of some games due to formations.
- Darboh - injured last year but when playing anyone not named Miami of OH has been blanketed
- Magnuson - decent player with hope
- Strobel - who? Zero impact on DL
- Wilson - starting safety, unfortunately injured a lot
- Bolden - finally putting it together this year and a nice player
Not every guy is going to hit. I get it. But out of those 11 players we have 4 starters and Darboh is an invisible starter. It's basically Bolden, Wilson, and Magnuson as guys who actually impact games in a material way. 3 out of 11 players who really change the complexion of a game for UM...that's crap.
Thankfull we have Funchess and Henry in this class in the 3 star area but that doesnt preclude our 4/5 stars from being a non impactful group. This is supposed to the the core of this and 2015's teams.
October 1st, 2014 at 8:18 AM ^
Kalis - "some blame health" no, he did have an injury.
Pipkins - recovering from an ACL tear. You did notice the drop off on the d line last year when he went out, didn't you?
And frankly, stop insulting the Glasgow brothers. "Beaten by a Glasgow". Like it's a badge of shame. Jesus.
Graham Glasgow had offers to walk on at Wisconsin and Ohio State. It's not like they are just bums they took off the street.
You do realize that it is possible for highly touted recruits to be beaten out by lesser recruits. Kevin Grady, 5* RB , had offers from everyone. Mike Hart, 3* RB, offers from UM and a few others.
October 1st, 2014 at 10:29 AM ^
I am not insulting the Glasgow brothers. If Pipkins was a beast 5 star and Glasgow was doing well they'd be sharing time. Pipkins did not even play per Brian's UFR vs Utah. I am curious how much he played vs Minnesota - I dont remember him making a tackle, maybe I missed it.
A Glasgow doing great, average, or poor reflects nothing on what Kalis or Pipkins can do. You can have 2 star players rotating. Pipkins should be challenging Glasgow - and he is a year off an ACL, so its not an excuse at this point. This is not QB where where only 1 player plays the position, Mattison loves to rotate DL.
Glasgow's performance has nothing to do with Pipkins not making an impact. He should be in there 30% of the plays even if Glasgow was a DT version of Joey Bosa and when he is in those limited amount of plays he should be making a big impact if he was living up to his billing. McDowell is outplaying Pipkins as a freshman. He was the 2nd best DL for MSU (after Marcush Rush, a DE) vs Oregon in his 2nd game of his career.
TL;DR Glasgow doing well is completely independent of Pipkins developing
October 1st, 2014 at 10:00 AM ^
I do think that Pipkins and Kalis have disappointed but both are dealing with injuries that are either lingering (Kalis) or take quite a bit of time to recover from (Pipkins). It would have been nice for Pipkins to have a redshirt somewhere along the way, but so be it.
Richardson is one of those tiny DBs that always seems higher rated than they should be, but Lewis was in a similar boat and looks to be on his way. So sometimes you do miss.
The offensive line has been troubling, and that absolutely falls on the coaches. It is always tough to predict line production from the high school to college level, but there have been some misses. Ross has been a good player; in a different defense he'd be a good performer. Bolden and Ryan have at least helped to step into the void and cover up for whatever performance loss was experienced. As for Darboh, he doesn't seem nearly as fast as he looked earlier; not sure if its an injury or not being as good as people expected, but I think the jury is still out on him. He's still young and coming off an injury.
It isn't a great lot, but I also think "player development" takes more than a couple of years to figure out. Hoke might be very bad at it, but we are basically looking at a 2-3 year window of players, some of whom were pressed into service too early because of depth issues from under RR.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:04 AM ^
Here are the 2013's 4/5 stars - I dont expect these guys to be starters by and large but I expect to see some signs of stardom out of some...some signs of First Team Big 10 out of a few, some signs of Second Team Big 10 down the line for others. Who is out there? Who is like a poor man's Joey Bosa at his position - at minimum? Only Jake Butt and MAYBE (we have 1 game of evidence) Lewis. Who else is projecting to be 2nd team All Big 10 in 2 years? Based on real evidence on the field not HS star rankings
- Green
- Bosch
- Butt
- Charlton
- Dawson
- Douglas
- Fox
- Gedeon
- D. Hill
- Kugler
- McCray
- Morris
- Poggi
- Shallman
- D. Thomas
- Tuley-Tullman
Let's go to the 3 stars from that class - who is showing signs? Who is making a starter uncomfortable ? Who can project to 3rd team Big 10 in 2 years?
- Dawson
- Dukes
- K. Hill
- Hurst Jr
- D. Jones
- Samuelson
- D. Smith
- Stribling
- York (he gone)
Where is the help coming from down the road? Other than OL guys who its too early to judge we should have more than 2 players being guys who are going to have any chance at being a star or at least 2nd team All Big 10. Throw in Green and Gedeon (barely plays) if you want to live off dreams. That's 4. Throw in Charlton (little impact yet) Out of a massive class of 27 guys.
This talent is not being evaluated OR developed correctly.
October 1st, 2014 at 10:13 AM ^
Smith and Green could both be competent backs, and I hold out hope that Smith could turn into one of those 1k backs who isn't flashy but can just grind out yards like a Hart. Charlton has 1.5 sacks for a team that can't seem to get to the QB, but has looked solid otherwise.
I think a problem is that a number of players in the class were linemen and some (David Dawson, Tuley-Tullman) were projects that may take a couple of years to figure out. And to be fair to guys like Stribling, Poggi, Hurst, they are behind some good players that look to be all-conference types either now or in the making. So the fact they haven't seen the field doesn't necessarily point to poor player development.
I don't disagree that Michigan has struggled on the field with some players not living up to their perceived level, but I just argue that we are still looking at a small window for these players and given the disarray around the program, that might not be fair.
October 1st, 2014 at 7:03 AM ^
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October 1st, 2014 at 7:48 AM ^
October 1st, 2014 at 7:53 AM ^
I think your general point is correct, but I think you are pointing out the wrong players as examples. Jake Ryan and Frank Clark both came in as three star recruits I believe and both are now good starters and potential all Big Ten players. Simply because Frank Clark doesn't put up the sack numbers you want him to doesn't mean he hasn't developed.
Beyer has developed, Ryan Glasgow has become a very solid starter, Morgan was a good linebacker before his injury and Ray Taylor has become a solid starting corner after he came in as a low 4 star athlete whose only real major offer was Indiana. There are plenty of guys on defense who have developed. People get to caught up in the pre-season hype of some of these guys to realize they are actually improving football players.
Now if you want to attack his development of players on offense go right ahead. Aside from Gallon and maybe Funchess or Schoefield I can't really think of a single offensive player that has improved over Hoke's tenure. All these offensive lineman they recruited and the best of the bunch right now is either a former walk-on or a true freshman. I don't know if AJ Williams is any better of a blocker now then he was as a high school senior. Neither running back has shown much development (nor has any running back under Jackson is who knows how long) and both QB's have seemed to regress as more time passes.
Again, I agree with your general point, but guys on defense have shown solid and consistent development. The defense might not be the all powerful, offense destroying machine we want, but it has been a good unit since Hoke got here. The offense well, we all know that has been a train wreck every since Denard stopped bailing them out.
October 1st, 2014 at 8:23 AM ^
Tell me the 4th and 5th year guys Hoke has this year who under ANY coach would be draftable?? Maybe 3 guys out of those 2 classes and all are middling draft choices except maybe Ryan (yes,I'm saying DG might go undrafted). No one else even comes close.
Is it Hoke's fault that the talent level he inherited??