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What was the point of this…

What was the point of this comment?

Who is the "we" in your statement that is pushing the agenda, and what exactly is the "women's basketball agenda"? Is Ace's enjoyment of watching a Michigan sporting team and wanting to write a bit about it an agenda? How is writing another blurb on a Michigan team competing for a tournament spot pushing something "as hard as possible"?

Do you find it impossible to believe that someone would want to watch a Michigan women's basketball game? Or just because you don't enjoy the women's game reason enough for no one to ever write about it?

 

Buritto

Wow as melon scratchers go, that's a honey doodle.

Relax

Just relax man and take a prose-ak

That's fair

There are plenty of legitimate complaints to make about Beilein's ability to recruit and close, I just think the no visit, no offer policy is often something people bring up as a complaint when it really isn't the issue. If Beilein failed to push and give everything he had to convince Jackson to come for a visit that is a problem, but I don't think Beilein throwing out a scholarship offer without also upping the level of pursuit would have done anything.

Thank You

Thank you, that was an informative and reasonable response, wihch can be rare in these kind of threads. 

If Beilein truly slow played or got lazy with Jackson's recruitment then he deserves a lot of criticism for that. I just can't get all that bothered by his no visit, no offer policy. I think it is antiquated for the current state of college basketball, but it hasn't seem to hurt much when it comes to offering other big time prospects.

If there is proof of other big time prospects who lost interest in Michigan due to the policy I would then think it needs to be changed. But at this point I feel Beilein's issue is he is just not a great recruiter/closer period, and is perhaps to honest/clean for the current state of college basketball, not the no visit, no offer policy.

I don't understand

I don't understand your question. I thought the issue was Beilein never offered Jackson, not that Beilein didn't recruit him at all. If you tell me Beilein made no effort to recruit Jackson then all my points are invalid. But I was under the impression that Beilein recruited Jackson he just never offered because of his no visit, no offer policy. So no, no one in Jackson's camp needed to reach out to Michigan because I assume Michigan attempted to get him to visit, he just never did. If I am wrong about that, then Beilein did make a massive mistake.

Only Point

Well you picked an odd way to convey that point. Harbaugh recruited a top five class last year, I believe you would classify that as an elite class. It is early, but is looking like he is going to bring in another elite class this year.

I agree, you need elite talent to compete for championships, but complaining about one kids commitment months before signing day is not the way to get that point across. You said in your post "recruiting like this" will not win championships, and I pointed out that yes, recruiting like this can win championships because the last couple national champions have also taken similiar players.

But that is fine, you tried to make a point, you made it poorly, people called you out for it and instead of admitting you could have phrased it better you tell someone to take a zanex. I apologize if I didn't understand the point you were trying to make, I just assumed some facts could help add some clarity to your comment and peoples responses. Also I assume you meant xanax, but again, that is just a meaningless fact and ignores the point you were trying to make, so sorry again.

Honest Question

Did Michigan really have a "real shot" with an in state kid who can't even make it to campus for a visit? This policy hasn't seem to hurt Michigan in getting kids on campus and offering them, he hasn't closed on many, but they have visited.

Everyone cites Jackson's girlfriend coming to Michigan but if he was truly interested in Michigan, he could have made it down for a visit, Tag along with your girlfriend when she comes to town on a visit if you don't want to come by yourself.

If Beilein did other stupid things to mess up the Jackson recruitment then so be it, he is far from the best recruiter in college basketball, but his no visit no offer policy is not going to be the reason Michigan does not land Josh Jackson.

Also, since when has anything Beilein done ever been described as slick. Maybe he has done some stupid things in Jackson's recruitment, but if his people are turned off by Beilein being "slick" then that should eliminate a lot of other coaches from his recruiting pool.

Sorry

I am sorry, you are right, facts have no place here. And as a wise man once said "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true"

Recruit Like the Big Boys

Why don't we wait until the final class shakes out and you can judge the recruiting class as a whole. The big boys you cite don't take all top 250 prospects every year.

Last year Alabama signed an athlete ranked 592 nationally, a TE ranked 526 and CB ranked 645. OSU had an ATH ranked 684, a CB ranked 769, a CB ranked 806 and another ATH ranked 872. Fl. State had an OG ranked 727 and an ATH ranked in the 2,000's.

We should wait until the end of season rankings before we judge just how high or low this kid is ranked, and even if he ends the season ranked lower then you would like, every class, even the best in the country has very low ranked kids in it. Heck, last year Michigan finished fifth overall and Devin Gil was ranked just over 1,000 overall. If Harbaugh takes over a dozen kids similar to Chase then you finishes with a class in the 30's you can be worried, but if he has a few really low ranked kids he likes and still finishes in the top five or ten overall, recruiting will not be the reason Michigan doesn't compete with the big boys.

I am confused

Sorry this is going to be a bit long, but I just want to present the facts.

 

So MaizeHaze, is your complaint that Beilein isn't recruiting at the same level as Michigan did in the 80's and 90's, or that the basketball team isn't as good as they were in the 80's and 90's?

Recruiting is not at the same level, we could re-hash prior arguments of why that is but it is pointless. Beilein is not recruiting at the level Michigan was in the 80's and 90's, that is accurate based on pure recruiting rankings and you aren't happy with that, anyone who tries to give you reasons other then Beilein you just call them excuses and say they are apologists, that isn't getting us anywhere.

But what about the actual performance on the basketball court? In the twelve years prior to Frieder they made the tournament three times and won two Big Ten Titles. Frieder came in and they missed the tournament for four more years (for a total of seven straight non tournament years), then lost in the second round for three straight years, winning the Big Ten twice, made a Sweet Sixteen then 88-89 happened.

Fischer comes in with the Championship, then proceeds to loss in the second round and then miss the tournament. The Fab Five comes in to town and loses in the championship game twice. Next four years go Elite 8, first round loss, first round loss and miss the tournament.

Then the dead years happen, which you ignore, so I will too. In comes Beilein, misses the tournament, 2nd round, misses the tournament, 2nd round, Big Ten title and first round loss. Followed by the Louisville loss, an Elite 8, tourney miss and now a first round loss.

So on the Court, Beilein is better then Orr, probably as good as Frieder, both won two Big Ten titles, Frieder made the tournery five times, including the Championship year, and Beilein has made six.

Now Beilein vs Fischer is interesting. How do you count the Championship, was it Frieder? Fischer? Half of each? Some other %? But after that Fischer made the tournery six out of eight years, two championship game losses and no Big Ten titles. Beilein has made it six out of nine years, with one championship game loss and two Big Ten Titles.

So how do you judge that, Fischer has half a Championship(?), two other championship game losses and no Big Ten Titles. Beilein has one championship game loss, not even half a Championship and two Big Ten titles. Fischer did better in the tournery, vs. Beilein has better regular seasons? Which is more important? Now MaizeHaze, I am sure you will say Fischer is clearly better then Beilein, and Frieder was too, and I am some kind of Beilein apologist. But I am just presenting the facts man.

If you want a better recruiter, then yes, we need to get rid of Beilein, but as far as the actual performance of the basketball team Beilein has at the very least matched the historical regular season performance, if not quite the fivish year tournament performance peak.

 

TLDR - Just the facts.

Were you sent here by the devil?

Were you sent here by the devil?

Watkins

Other recruits (Watkins and Scott the only two I actually know of) have chosen Clemson over Michigan in completely different recruiting situations, therefore that makes Clemson the favorite or at least a huge threat for Gary because Michigan just can't close on big time recruits vs. Clemson.

Or so the extremly panicked and pessimistic people around here would have you believe.

Manuel

I think everyone is excited to have AD who has experience running an athletic department and working in college athletics and is familar with Michigan and what is needed to work there. You will get the occasional Hackett with no prior athletic department experience, but I think people are now very resistent to another business hire aafter notable high profile failures like Brandon and Steve Patterson at Texas. 

I don't know the stats for AD's across all of college sports, but it would seem like the safer road in AD selection is someone with experience, and at this point Michigan needs a safe pick, who will keep things going well, not a risky selection to shake things up, at least that is my opinion.

Thanks

Thanks for the response. I knew she was the runner up last year and Haeger graduated, but I assumed there were other really good players coming back and wasn't sure whether the was the favorite, or just one of a few on a short list preseason.

Romero

For anyone here with more softball knowledge then me, is she the favorite to win NPOY heading into the season?

Connor Cook

But how will this affect DPJ and other recruits?

Attention

Have to take the good with the bad when it comes to Harbaugh. He is always drawing huge amounts of attention to himself and the Michigan football program. This means tons of talk about the summer swarm tour and his recruiting sleep overs and a lot of talk when he does something potentially "bad".

People are tired of talking about the SEC doing this because it has been going on for years and is not going to change, this is seemingly new to Michigan. Michigan has always, and presumably will always draw a lot of attention, so naturally there is going to be a lot of talk when Michigan starts recruiting like SEC teams.

I am not trying to pick on you directly, but fans need to accept the negative attention that comes along with all the positive attention. Michigan is a target, which comes with being a historically great university and football program. I would much rather all this attention then the constant whining and complaining that comes with being an MSU fan about how no one ever pays any attention to you.

Sumlin

I mean he is one really bad year away from basically being Brady Hoke isn't he? Huge success in the first year with another coaches players carried by a superstar playmaker at QB (Manziel and Denard) then settled into a string of great recruiting success but mediocre results on the field.

He followed up his 10 and 2 season and a win over Bama with 8 - 4, 7 - 5, and now 8 - 4 again. Not to mention the second highly regarded QB to transfer in as many years. If he really wanted an NFL head coaching gig he should have jumped after year two.

But Herman at a place like TAMU or Texas could be scary.

Coach Flood

10 current job openings in college football, and yet Kyle Flood, a guy who sent an e-mail to a professor to try and get a players grade changed, can't recruit that well and hasn't had great results on the field still has a job. Nothing crazier then college football.

Why does Hunwick belong in a

Why does Hunwick belong in a discussion above Denard but not Romero? In addition, why is a women rewriting Michigan softball records not in a discussion to be above Denard other then you liking football, basketball and hockey more then softball?




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Triangle Posbang

Durham resident checking in. Where are we meeting for beers before the game?

U of M/NC State

My NC State friends down here are saying there should be no problem getting tickets. Should be able to got to StubHub or the like and get relatively inexpensive tickets.

Cardale

You do know he said this was a joke correct?

Harbaugh

I want Harbaugh to succeed as a the head coach here for the obvious reason of loving Michigan football. But now I want him to succeed even more becasue this has been such a great few months with him as coach because he just does not care about what anyone thinks about him and it is amazing.

Bo Ryan

I think it is far to early to say there has been much change in Bo Ryan. I think his scheme and style of play have remained largely the same, he just has more talent at his disposal then he has ever had before, so his offensive efficiency has shot through the roof.

I wonder if this is a lasting trend for Wisconsin. Next year without Kaminsky and possible Dekker, along with losing Gasser and Jackson, will Wisconsin still be great offensivly or will they regress and Bo Ryan go back ot winning games 42 - 41.

Wisconsin and Kentucky

I have never found Wisconsin's offense ugly, I think it is well taught and well executed. It is their clutch and grab defense I find ugly.

As for Kentucky, I agree their offense is ugly, because their offense is non-existent. For all their talent I am not sure any of them actually know how to play basketball involving the four other guys on the court.

With all that being said, I would much rather have an offense like Michigan the last two years or Notre Dame this year. Also well taught and executed, space the floor, have good shooters and take the first quality look available. Wisconsins offense is fine, but I would prefer a bit more of a wide open game with less shots taken with under 10 seconds on the shot clock. I could be wrong, but I think Wisconsins offense would be just as efficient but would have even more possessions if the shot clock was shortened from 35.

Bo Ryan

I never denied he is a really good basketbal coach. Since he has been at Wisconsin they have never finished lower than 4th in the league, that is really impressive.

But I dispute your, "he did what he needed to do". Other coaches with limited talent succeed without playing a slow, grind it out, ugly style of basketball. But regardless, he is a quality basketball coach.

I will be interested to see if he can maintain this really high level of success or if it is a flash in the pan built on good coaching and some good luck (Kaminsky developing beyond anyones expectations and 2 really good basketball players, Dekker and Koening, growing up in Wisconsin).

What a strange new world

I am amazed at the number of people here who are crying foul over Bo Ryan not getting into the HOF this year. Don't we hate Bo Ryan? Isn't he alien Hitler or the vanguard of the bug people? He is still one of the biggest complainers to the refs in college basketball despite his teams undercutting shooters and bumping every guy who drives to the lane without anything getting called against them.

I guess when compared to Coach Cal he looks pretty good, I am just surprised at the number of people here calling for his immediate enshrinement into the HOF.

Kentucky

Guys can overcome it (like WCS) but I wonder if some point the system will eventually catch up to Kentucky and some guys decide against it due to their desire to be the focal point and not risk being buried if they don't excell year 1.

Of course, by that time Cal might have another national title or two, so not like he has any need to worry about that now.

Development

Not to nitpick, I see 3 Kentucky Freshman in the first round and WCS (a JR) as the 4th. My lack of development is a comment on how at this point, with the level of recruiting Kentucky is doing, anyone who doesn't go in the first round is a dissapointment.

The Harrison twins were the 3rd and 5th best players in the country coming out of high school, Darkari Johnson the 8th and Marcus Lee the 14th. Right now, only one of those guys is projected to get drafted, and that is Johnson in the second round. Yes Randle and Young were 1st rounders, and there is time yet for others, but Kentucky got 6 of the top 14 players, and so far only 2 first rounders out if it.

Not everyone is going to work out, that is the nature of college basketball, but if Kentucky is selling themselves on being an NBA factory last years class is not a great example for them so far. They are the class of college basketball and Cal is a recruiter on a whole different level. With that said, maybe I am just being a hater, maybe last years class was an abberation or maybe its the way the NBA draft works, but it seems like the longer guys stay at Kentucky, the less chance they have of going in the first round.

Well Dang

When you back up your point with facts instead of unsubstantiated opinions it makes it tough  to argue against. I never realized Cal has had that much success, that is an impressive run. I still don't understand how he manages to sell these guys when they will be coming off the bench and getting reduced minutes, but the man is a great salesman.

I still think most of these guys can go to a lot of programs, have on court success and get drafted in the lottery, but when one guy has managed to play the system so well and get so much talent, it becomes difficult to argue against all the top players following suit.

Logjam

I agree that it will be interesting to see what happens with Kentucky's roster over the next two years. Are guys going to start leaving early even with second round grades? Are we going to see more guys transfer after two years, either by their choosing or at some strong urging from Cal?

I don't look at a ton of mock draft stuff but which of these Kentucky players are projected to go in the first round? Are Booker or their PG (Ulis? or is that the Duke guy?) projected as first rounders? At some point there has to be a roster crunch and I wonder if the potential lack of development will ever catch up with them recruiting wise.

 

Kentucky's "Veterans"

The examples you gave, WCS, Daraki and the Harrison's just make me wonder even more why so many top recruits go there. There is only so much opportunity to really showcase what you can do on such a loaded team. If you aren't a physical freak, like Julius Randle or Karl Towns, your reduced minutes can lead to a lack of opportunity and before you know it you are a SO or JR, losing playing time to younger guys and seeing your NBA potential fade.

Why take that risk and go to such a loaded team? Kansas seems to get 2ish of those super star guys every year instead of 5, they stay for a year, get plenty of opportunity to showcase their potential and are gone. I guess all of the guys who choose Kentucky assume they are to good to be the guy pushed to the side, but it just seems like an odd choice if so many of these guys go there because its an NBA factory.

Kentucky

They are clearly the top when it comes to landing the best players, but its not like they are the only game in town. You can pick any number of schools, play there for one year or more and be on a quality national championship contender and still be a high lottery pick. Kentucky is not the only school that produces NBA talent while being a good college team.

You wonder why any top recruit doesn't go there and I wonder why so many do. The potential cheating angle aside what really separates them from Duke, UNC, Kansas, Arizona or the other super elite?

Attack on Titan gif = +1

Also what does "dream school" mean to high schoolers these days. I assume the recruits must say it about a lot of different schools during the recruiting process.

Looks that way

Guess I should have read your response before replying with largely the same information, would have saved me the time of typing out the response.

Constructive Criticism?

Do you know what that term means? Saying that there is no one to blame for the poor showing but Beilein this year is not constructive criticism. You made an inflamatory statement about a beloved coach and people got upset with you. Don't try to play it off like you are some victim of unfair attacks by claiming constructive criticism.

Maybe next time offer up a few complaints or things to improve on in your initial comments instead up just that there is "no one to blame but JB". He made some bad coaching decisions this year, but to say he bears all the blame when his two best players were injured for large parts of the year is just as bad as all the people you complain about who refuse to criticize him at all.

Expectations

I also think you are reading way to much into coach speak after four days of practice about "competition" and "every spot being available". Harbaugh is walking in to a completly new set of players and loves competition, so he is throwing everything open depsite knowing there are probably more than a few positions locked up.

There may be no proven stars but it is pretty safe to say, barring injuries, we will see a lot of Lewis, Countess, Peppers and Wilson in the secondary. I bet Morgan, Bolden and Ross see a lot of time at LB and the D-line sees a heavy rotation of Glasgow, Pipkins, Mone and Henry amoung others.

The line will have Cole somewhere on it, probably Glasgow and Kalis as well. Your TE's are Butt and Bunting in certain situations. There are a bunch of guys who I would classify as returning starters (or close enough) who are clearly good enough that no one is going to beat them out, the ones you claimed Michigan is lacking.

Michigan has enough talent to compete in the Big Ten, 10 wins might be a long shot, but there is no reason to complain about the coaches refusing to annoint starters after their first four practices at Michigan.

What were you expecting?

They have had what, 4 practices under a new regime with a program coming off a below .500 year. How many positions do you want to be locked down off a team that was as bad as last years team was?

I agree there is no guarantee anyone who wins the competition will be any good, especially at QB, but it is way to early to start talking about how all this "competition" would make you more nervous about next years team.

Agreed

People need to stop assuming or implying that any young player that struggles is going to transfer. Not every kid is going to make an instant impact. Michigan is a very young team this year, if every young player who struggles initially transfers like some people want that will never change.

 

Agree to Disagree

I call bull on your statement that there are so many athletic 6'8"+ players playing at mid major programs. Give me some names, give me some examples. Again, what Big Ten team has 6'8"+ athletic guys you wish Michigan had?

Wisconsin has Nigel Hayes (who I am not sure is that athletic) and Sam Dekker, who everyone in the country wanted out of high school. Kaminsky is fairly athletic but wasn't productive til his JR year.

Who on MSU do you point to as an athletic big, Costello? Schilling?

OSU has the mercurial Amir Williams and thats it. I don't believe Jasean Tate is 6'8".

Purdue for some weird reason has managed to get a pair of athletic 7 footers.

Indiana has Hannah Parrea, I guess he would count as 6'8"+ and athletic.

I could go on, but most of the other big men in the conference who are good, Olah, Mo Walker, are similar to Kaminsky and are veterans who weren't very productive early in their career, which I hope is the track Doyle and maybe Donnal are on.

If you lower your height requirement I am in, you can find those guys, like Dawkins who no one wanted. Or if you just want more size, I agree with that to, I want more people like Doyle and Teske and less like Beilfeldt or Donnal. But guys 6'8"+ with a lot of athleticism are just not that common.

Big Men

You say Michigan should be able to get one Kentucky level player every year, is that one Kentucky level big guy or one Kentucky level player period at any position?

I appreciate your point and am enjoying the discussion, but I just don't think athletic big men are that common or easy to find. You cite Jordan Morgan, but Morgan was never that athletic, especially as a RS FR. What made him so good later in his career was intelligence and experience, which I am hoping will develop in Doyle and maybe Donnal. I agree, Beilein missed the boat in big men recruiting recently. There was a big gap between Morgan and Doyle/Donnal. McGary filled that briefly, but Beilein should not have been suprised McGary left early, you recruited him knowing that. Maybe Horford leaving caught Beilein off guard, but he should have been prepared for that. I hope Doyle/Donnal and maybe even Wilson can develop and we got Teske and more like him in the future.

I agree OSU is killing Michigan in recruiting and I don't have a good answer for that, but I don't believe MSU is out recruiting Michigan right now, neither is doing that well. Maybe I am just different, but the more I look at Beilein the more I see a Bo Ryan esque coach. A coach who doesn't recruit at the highest level but continually has good teams based on experience and quality coaching. I think Matta will always out recruit Beilein, I just hope this year is an abberation due to unusual player development and Beilein never ends up with a team this young again.

Quick twitch bigs

I would love more athletic big men, I am just not sure where they are going to come from. Putting aside the fact that I believe Beilein prioritizes skill over pure athleticism when recruiting, who are the athletic guys 6'8"+ that Michigan would have a legit chance with? Looking around the Big Ten, who are the 6'8"+ athletes you wish Michigan had landed? Those type of athletes are not easy to find or recruit unless you are Kentucky or Kansas.

Michigan

You had a sleepless night after a largely meaningless late season basketball game by a sub .500 Michigan basketball team? Also please try to break up blocks of texts, makes it easier to read and have a discussion about.

How many unathletic stretch 4's has Michigan recruited that you are complaining about? RS FR Donnal and FR Chatman? They should recruit more athletes, you mean like Irvin, Walton, Dawkins or MAAR? If you recruit an entire team full of athletes you end up with Indiana, a bunch of pogo sticks who don't know how to play basketball.

Also yes, two injuries will have a significant negative impact on just about every team in the country if they lose their two best players. What would State be without Dawson and Valentine this year? How about OSU without Russell and any other player, Indiana without Ferrel and Blackmon? Kentucky lost Noel two years ago and went to the NIT and they had way more talent than Michigan. Its not just two injuries, its their two best players.

Finally what is your definition of "giving up looks at 3's". You may think fouling up three is the right call, I disagree, but thats fine. That being said, Demps game tying three at regulation was a miracle and not Michigan giving up a good look at a 3.

It was a bad loss during a bad season, but take a deep breath and enjoy the fact that its softball season.

You're crazy

I agree Caris is probably not a POY candidate, but to say it is the last we would hear of him, or say he is no GR3 or THJ is ridiculous. You are right, he is no Burke, he will not be hte NPOY, but what exactly did GR3 or THJ do in their college career to elevate them over Caris in your mind? Not to denegrate either of those two players, I wish nothing but the best for them, but you can't say Caris hasn't done anything in college and then imply GR3 and THJ did so much more.

New Job

He can at least claim (whether it is true or not) that he wasn't sure he was taking the new job until after signing day was over. I am sure he knew he was leaving before last Wednesday, but he at least left himself enough time to claim he was formally offered and accepted the job after NSD.

Transfer

Wilson is a freshman who looks like he will redshirt this year, Duncan Robinson is the transfer.

Beilein

Beilein recruits skill over just height, he will recruited talented big men, McGary, Doyle, Teske, Wilson, even Chatman is pretty tall. But he normally seems to priortize other basketball talents over pure size.

We have seen what Beileins ideal offense looks like last year and the year prior, and those teams had only 1 big man on the floor. It will always cause problems when Michigan runs into really tall teams like Iowa, Wisconsin or Kentucky last year, but you just need the offense to overcome the defensive size weakness.

It looks like more of a problem because Michigan just doesn't have enough talent on the floor to overcome Iowa's massive size advantage, but as others have said, the last two years teams didn't seem to struggle vs. teams with size, because they had the talent.

Pretty Common

My wife was a college swim coach for a few years and most programs only have 1 coach for the mens and womens team. They usually practice together or on similar schedules and as WD said their meets also follow similar schedules.

I am sure its a lot of work, but I doubt he puts in that much more time than the coaches of the other Olympic sports at Michigan.