OT - Where Is the James Webb Telescope and what is a Lagrange point?

Submitted by MGoGrendel on January 18th, 2022 at 10:03 AM

We’ve had a couple of James Webb Telescope OP’s here and they have piqued my interest in this topic.  I saw this article today:

https://www.newsweek.com/where-james-webb-telescope-right-now-when-will-it-reach-its-destination-1670100

…and read this:

This point is located approximately 930,000 miles away from the Earth in the exact opposite direction from the sun.

Emphasis mine, because I thought this was "L3" on the other side of the sun, right where the Alternate Universe Earth is!  So, I looked up “what is a Lagrange Point?” and found this picture:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_point

L2 is essentially twice the distance from the Earth to the Moon, but orbits the Sun.  Because of this orbit, the satellite uses very little fuel.  One of the comments in the article asks – why don’t they put it out by Neptune?  Which is what I thought, thinking it could take better pictures, but the reasoning is that the “little” extra distance that provides in getting closer to a far away galaxy is negligible, based on the equipment on the telescope.

The next comment is: “It is currently sitting on a sound stage in Hollywood, right?” Well Akshully, it’s 23 days into it’s 29 day trip to L2.

Gameboy

January 18th, 2022 at 1:34 PM ^

Sure, let me try...

Unlike Hubble, Webb is an infra-red telescope, which means it really measures heat signatures coming from very far places in the universe. This is great because it means it can see very far back in to the past without getting interference from the visible spectrum.

But this brings a different problem. For it to work well, it needs to be shielded from heat source. As you may know, sun is a rather large heat source. To work around this, they are placing it in the earth's shadow. With earth and its own heat shield (looks like a large tarp underneath the mirrors), you can have VERY VERY cold operating temperature, which is ideal.

But how do you make sure that the telescope stays in the earth's shadow all the time? By putting it in Lagrange point #2. This is a point in space where the gravity from sun and earth cancel each other out and any object can pretty much stay in place as long as you want (as it orbits the sun in the same velocity as the earth). This is where Webb is heading towards in several days, it has just enough momentum to get there and stop.

Once it is there, it will be ready to look back into moments just after the Big Bang, which is very very exciting.

BlueTuesday

January 18th, 2022 at 4:02 PM ^

I try not to correct people while blogging because there is almost no way to not come off like a condescending dick, so I apologize in advance.

JWST will never be in Earths shadow. Further, the JWST will never be eclipsed by the Earth or the Moon at any time because it will ride in a halo orbit. This is intentional for reasons I’m not 100% sure why.

Wolverine In Exile

January 18th, 2022 at 10:26 AM ^

Layman's explanation: Lagrange points are singular points in space where gravitational effects from multiple bodies (Sun, Earth, Moon mostly, but also sometimes Jupiter) are balanced out and the object appears to "not move" relative to the other bodies. It's a mathematical singularity though, so you never get to the perfect Lagrange point-- get close enough though and you basically stay in the same spot. 

Useful for astronomical missions like looking at other stars / galaxies, or even the Sun since because you're in "the same spot" the whole time, you have constant lighting and viewing geometries, simplifying command and control and things like thermal control. The cons are they're all pretty far away from the Earth in relative terms to other spacecraft, hence you need more powerful rockets to get anything of subtantive mass out there. It's also a pretty harsh environment from a radiation exposure perspective, and the distance makes comms with Earth difficult as well. 

michengin87

January 18th, 2022 at 10:55 AM ^

We are by definition 1 AU (astronomical unit) away from the sun which is 93,000,000 miles away.  The telescope will be 930,000 miles away or 0.01 AU from Earth, or precisely 1%.  In other words, the JWT will be a 1 percenter.  Or, just mere coincidence?

1VaBlue1

January 18th, 2022 at 10:58 AM ^

The L2 point is quasi-stable - meaning it doesn't hold transient objects in the orbit, they pass through and move off.  So JWST has thrusters that will push it back into the L2 point every so often, as the Sun's gravity is always pulling it back in.  This is why it has a finite lifetime, it only has so much fuel.  The lifetime is expect to be ~20 years, up from the estimated ~10 years because of the accuracy of the launch rocket trajectory and the two burns JWST itself did.

This page tells you exactly where it is and what's coming next.  I can't wait for the science this thing will bring us!

mgoblue_in_bay

January 18th, 2022 at 5:30 PM ^

Why not put it in L4 or L5 then?  Combined with the above explanation that it's not ever in Earth's shadow, by design, it seems like a the stable orbits would work then too?

Or - just too far away (time), would take X years for it to get there and it'll be useless by then

Or - just too far away (momentum), and the fuel required to get to L4 or L5 significantly exceeds the fuel needed to keep it circling L2?

Durham Blue

January 19th, 2022 at 12:08 AM ^

I think, and don't quote me on this, but L4 and L5 are closer to the sun than L2.  The JWST relies on extremely cold temperatures on its mirrors and infra-red electronics to operate to design goals.  In fact, it has multiple sun shields on board that shield the spacecraft from solar heat and keep the mirrors and infra-red electronics ultra cool, like -340F cold, i.e. cold AF.  The additional solar radiation at L4 or L5 may have been too much to design for.

FauxMo

January 18th, 2022 at 11:02 AM ^

I found this online: "Discovered by the Germans in 1904, they named it a Lagrange Point, which of course in German means a whale's vagina." 

gbdub

January 18th, 2022 at 12:08 PM ^

The graphic is right for where L2 is. It's in "the opposite direction from the sun" in that if you drew a line from Earth to the sun, it's in the other direction (not farther along in the same direction, which is where L3 is). 

You don't want it at L3, because then the sun is in the way when you try to send data back to Earth.

You don't want to put it out at Neptune, because it's much harder to phone home (farther away), much harder to get there, it has all the disadvantages of orbiting Earth in terms of thermal problems, and it's so far from the sun that your solar cells won't work very well. 

Jmer

January 18th, 2022 at 3:58 PM ^

Space may be the final frontier but it's made in a Hollywood basement
And Cobain, can you hear the spheres singing songs off Station to Station?
And Alderaan's not far away, it's Californication

-RHCP

superstringer

January 18th, 2022 at 4:33 PM ^

I HAVE QUESTIONS.  SOOO MANY QUESTIONS. I have read a tone on JWST but haven't seen these answered.

1. At L2, does the Earth completely block out the sun? I assume not.  I would think Earth would look small (at least, smaller than the sun), so it is not totally in the Earth's shadow?

2. What about light/heat from the Earth and Moon.  I assume the sunshield reflects their heat too; however, the moon is at a different angle than the sun/earth (which are colinear, given L2), so does the shield have to rotate a bit to block off all light reflected from the Moon?

3. Can Elon's Starship get to L2?  If so, that'll eventually allow us to service the dang thing.  I wouldn't want to go out there and refuel it in person, however, but like change equipment on it.

By the way -- the reason this thing wasn't launched to Neptune is, the weight penalty.  To get an object from Earth to that distance requires a LOT more fuel, and since our rockets have maximum weights they can launch, adding fuel = reducing size of the payload.  The weight of JWST was already rigorously designed -- they actually would have preferred a larger mirror, but just couldn't add the weight -- so trying to move it any further from Earth on launch would have forced an even smaller satellite.

Michigan Arrogance

January 18th, 2022 at 5:09 PM ^

1) I don't believe so. The point allows one to always point the instruments away from the sun, earth, moon etc. Plus, L2 location is good b.c you can keep it there with minimal fuel to maintain position, as someone said above.

2) If you point it away, these aren't big issues.

3) Very likely not practical. There will be no manned missions to this tool if it fails. Back in the 90s 2-3 manned trips were made to Hubble to keep it viable as I recall. Hubble was in a pretty standard high Earth orbit