OT: Miles and Long and Kansas, oh, my!
It seems there is a lot more to the story of Les Miles and Jeff Long leaving Kansas than just sexual harassment. The Kansas City Star has reported that a kid who had transferred there to play football as a walk-on and then won a scholarship was severely harassed by team members. Those players were given a stern talking-to, which seems to have made things worse. Miles wouldn't talk to the kid's family and Kansas' solution was to pay the kid to leave. They honored his scholarship for him to take online classes and paid him mileage for his trip back home to West Virginia.
https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article252152528.html
We need to thank Kirk Herbstreit for messing up the Miles-to-Michigan deal. And wasn't Long in the mix when we hired Manuel?
Both are correct. Both could've very easily been at Michigan at one point or another.
That said, when Herbie "messed it up," we got Rich Rod. That whole thing was a disaster.
As a sidenote, if you play "hindsight" (a miserable game if you ask me)...there aren't a lot of "other" options when we hired Rich Rod and Hoke.
Not realistically anyway (of course anyone can look back now and say Ryan Day, Lincoln Riley or Kirby Smart before they became who they are today).
Two very unlucky hiring cycles. Rich Rod gets fired one year after Brian Kelly gets to ND.
Urban decides to go back into coaching (OSU), one year after Hoke is hired.
Meanwhile Rich Rod has recruited out of state and alienated HS coaches in Michigan and Dantonio has capitalized on down Michigan years and minimal recruiting resistance in the state.
A perfect storm of bad luck and Michigan is where it is because of it. If any one of those 3 break a different way, maybe things are better today.
Told you that game sucked.
If RichRod's WVU team beats a very down Pitt team they go to the national championship and Michigan never hires RichRod. Lots of dominos had to fall in the right/wrong direction for Michigan Football to be where it is now.
Feels like every time they get close they take two steps back. Really hoping for a momentum gaining season.
Imagining that scenario takes me to such a happier place. RichRod goes to Tuscaloosa and I truly believe Alabama continues putting up 6-6 seasons. Maybe the occasional 7-5 record but nothing elite because of his inability to field any semblance of defense. Then Tide fans have to be subjected to their defense giving up 3rd and 25 plays about a dozen times per game and that stank never reaches the big house.
Keep following that thread. RichRod takes the Alabama job and Nick Saban stays in the NFL. He has a few rough years but eventually puts it all together because he's Nick Saban. Belichick vs Saban, Patriots vs Dolphins twice a year for a decade+ is the best rivalry the NFL has had in a long time.
WVU beats Pitt as they should have - LSU does not get to the National Championship game, and, I believe, MIles likely would have been hired.
I think it was Pat White that couldn't play well with a twisted thumb. Just an injury away.
WVU beats Pitt as they should have - LSU does not get to the National Championship game, and, I believe, MIles likely would have been hired.
And six years ago we were happy it worked out this way as that is how we got Harbaugh. And now here we sit...
Probably the last time the Michigan fan base was ecstatic. It also should be pointed out that michigan fans also guaranteed that osu was done and Harbaugh would dominate the big ten like no other coach has done.
I think your first sentence is spot-on. Otherwise:
- I don't see much coaching brilliance in Kirby Smart. What I see is that he SEC'd his way to a talented roster in a talent-rich state.
- In a "Where there's smoke, there's fire" sort of way it's my understanding that Brian Kelly never would've been hired at Michigan. I have no problem with that.
- "Meanwhile Rich Rod has recruited out of state and alienated HS coaches in Michigan and Dantonio has capitalized on down Michigan years and minimal recruiting resistance in the state." Why is this accepted as gospel? I'd agree that RichRod was clumsy and tone-deaf as far as (State of) Michigan football was concerned, but after all these years I can't think of too many highly rated players that got away from Michigan during those years. William Gholson, Dion Sims, maybe Edwin Baker? Who else? (I'm ignoring the "legacy" Bulloughs.) Also, it's not like Michigan's out-of-state recruits were all no-names. Lewan, Denard, etc.
People just like to point blame at anything else they can find except Michigan being at fault. Dantonio built MSU primarily by finding the underrecruited players in Ohio as well as all around the country (Darqueze Dennard, Trae Waynes). Also Kirk Cousins helped, who was from Michigan.
Read any Monday morning thread after a bad loss and you will find people blaming Lloyd Carr's recruiting, a guy who hasnt coached here in 14 years, for the current state of the program.
Because that's the point...
Rich Rod's out of state 4 *'s kept losing to Dantonio's in-state 3 and 4*'s with chips on their shoulders that he was a MASTER at maximizing.
It's not that we got Lewan and Denard...of course we want then. But you take the Vincent Smith's of the world over the Vincent Smith equivalent in-state...and now that kid is at State with a chip rather than in Ann Arbor and the real Vincent Smith playing for USF or something.
It just is what it is...unintended consequences of a shit coach and a shit period in our history.
Go back and look at MSU's recruiting classes, go back and watch those wins over Michigan and see who's making the key plays to win. You'll notice that a lot of them could've easily been on the other sideline.
Orrrr Michigan could've still been whipping up on State and those kids who don't go to Michigan end up out of state.
Once MSU got rolling, it wasn't until Harbaugh that things started to turn back around.
You just proved his point. Who did we lose out on to MSU in state that would have been the difference? Because the players Dantonio started to turn things around with against Rich Rod were John L recruits to begin with.
Also we've been getting most Michigan recruits again since Hoke was here yet we still lose to them...regularly.
We started losing because RichRod was a terrible coach who didn't give a lick about special teams or defense and it showed horribly in the Big Ten. Then we replaced him with a barely more competent version of himself and we've been digging out of that whole forever now.
MSU capitalized because they had a coach who played it tight to the book and got seemingly a billion breaks in a 10 year span to get them over the hump in what would have otherwise been a pretty mediocre run at MSU.
Bottom line, Michigan hires anyone who can run a program with competence in 2008 and Dantonio never lasts to 2018 in East Lansing and his legacy would be 1/2 of what it is.
Don't even get me started on how OSU skirted two major issues under Tressel that would have buried any other program for a decade. The last 20 years has been bullshit on top of bullshit on top of more bullshit, it has to end sometime right.
You could say "if they did this or that" for literally any program in the country. Michigan isn't special. And the longer it keeps your same attitude with "bad luck, bullshit, has to end sometime" the worse it will get. This will not fix itself.
Brian Kelly, ick.
Could’ve hired prime Harbaugh when we got Hoke instead or took a flier on a younger Harbaugh in 2007
Les Miles is a piece of shit. Glad he didn’t get the HC job at Michigan
I dunno. Given what we know now about all the coaches (yes including Bo) I'm not that sure that Miles is THAT big of an outlier character-wise from many of them.
And he damn sure would've changed the team's trajectory for the better had he, not RichRod, been made HC in 2007.
That would be a very interesting counterfactual IMO. What does the football team look like today if Miles is HC instead of RR?
That is an interesting thought. You assume Mallet stays since the offense is very similar. Maybe Arrington returns for his senior season? I think Manningham goes either way. The transition costs are much less, and MSU does not bulldoze instate recruiting. I think Michigan does not bottom out like they did with RichRod. Miles hangs on a few more seasons than RichRod did, but I wonder if The Game is any different after Urban takes over OSU?
Either way, in that situation I think Hoke never gets the head job. In my opinion RichRod made it possible for Hoke to get a job he never would have gotten otherwise.
So RichRod is now responsible for Brandon picking Hoke. It just goes to show that hatred for a coach will always out-live hatred for an AD.
Certainly not RichRod's fault Hoke got hired above his class. My point was when RichRod was fired the call for a "Michigan Man" was so strong there were only a few candidates. Ultimately Brandon is responsible for Hoke, but there was a strong push for someone that "gets the rivalry"
I was actually excited when RichRod was hired. He had turned down the Alabama job the previous season and was one bad game away from the national title game with West Virginia. At the time he was one of the hottest coaches in College football and seen as an offensive genius. Had Castell come with him who knows what would have happened. My point was simply that there was a fraction that thought RichRod did not "get it" and we had to have a Michigan Man, thus opening the door for Hoke.
I don’t see much hatred for Rich Rod here. Most people just realize he was a shitty coach.
Hoke was the best coach available that would accept the job. Most of the other name coaches were thought to have given the position a pass. Hoke's power ratings at Ball State and SDSU indicated that Hoke would be an ok/good coach at Michigan. Hoke's biggest mistake was not correcting the fact that Rich Rod did not leave him with a freshman or sophomore QB.
Mallett wouldn't have stayed even if Miles was hypothetically hired. He would've transferred no matter what because he was hated by nearly everyone including the coaches. Rich Rod hiring was a convenient excuse for him to transfer.
I’ve heard nobody on the coaching staff liked Mallet from a former teammate of Mallet. This person remarked that there was an instance where Carr literally threw transfer paperwork at him and told him to get out. I think Mallet was leaving even if Carr stayed.
I know a couple of players who were on that team. They had nothing but bad things about Mallett. Supremely talented QB but is lazy and has zero desire to be the best QB in the league.
"What does the football team look like today if Miles is HC instead of RR?"
One person's guess: Better for sure, but not great. I can't see a shady character like Miles prospering at Michigan. Still, I think he would've been a better choice than one of Lloyd's lackeys (English / DeBord).
This may be an interesting thought experiment, but did you read the article? It's horrific!
I did not, I was speaking from a strictly on the field point of view. Seeing as Michigan took it on the chin for extra stretching during RichRod years, I can only imagine what they would do with a legitimate issue like the one Kansas is facing.
I think "missing" on Miles was a blessing in disguise.
Miles would've gotten his ass handed to him by Meyer too. Miles' offenses are even more primitive now than Carr's in the aughts. Say what you want about Harbaugh, but his offenses are generally more innovative than anything Miles has produced.
You're probably right.
But they did coach against each other every year during the 2005 - 2010 seasons.
Miles was 3-3 over that time frame.
Coaches and ADs have chronic myopia when it comes to their money programs. They can't see that doing the right thing and dealing with problems in above-board way is the best thing for the long-term health of the program.
Their immediate need for this player or that, or for squelching any negative PR, always takes priority. It's not just Miles and Long... they seem fairly totemic of the profession at that level.
I was worried about the rumors of Les to your school, but you may have dodged a bullet....on the other hand, maybe being in AA, he wouldn't have become such a swamp scum
What? He practiced being a scum during his time in AA.
This story is insane.
Over weed, though?
I mean, it is in Kansas but stil...over weed
That doesn't sound worse than sexual harassment. Putting aside that Miles appears to be of questionable character. He was a helluva recruiter and would have easily transcended Hoke and Rich Rod at UM. Had he flopped or left in a scandal, he certainly would have left the cupboard full for the next guy.
Yeah, Miles in '08 would've probably meant getting Harbaugh earlier, when it might've still made a difference.
Nonsense. Harbaugh only left the pros because he was getting pushed out of SF by the Yorks. Go back earlier and he wasn't leaving the pros. No way.
This is true. Though disgruntle NFL players were going to the GM and owner complaining about how Harbaugh treated them. NFL players don't like to be treated like college kids and that was Harbaugh's problem with the 49ers. I would say one year at most since heading into the '13 season most players knew the Yourks were going to can Harbaugh. I still think Harbaugh is a good college coach! At least the rumors of Harbaugh to the NFL with recruits, will stop. Many of the major coaches repeated the rumors to recruits in '14 through '17.
There's always more with Les.
As some are doing here, there are admittedly fleeting moments where I ask myself if it would be different if Les Miles had indeed been the coach after Lloyd Carr, and then I see stories like this and wonder if it would have ended here better or would he have been as prone to major abandonments of good judgment here as well.
Big picture; our demise was much deeper than a Les Miles vs Rich Rod issue. So much of it is very much self inflicted and still continues.
I’m increasingly of the opinion, however Unpopular it may be, that much of Michigan’s problems are cultural and self-inflicted. We’ve now had three coaches. Harbaugh is by far the best of them, the closest to Carr . I also think he’s the one that gives us the best chance going forward. I think both he and Carr are and we’re under appreciated by the fanbase. But two if the three were far worse than expected and Harbaugh doesnt have us where we thought.
There is no question he seems to have tamed. The administration, particularly the president, doesn’t seem all that concerned about football. The rest of the school is huge and makes a lot of money. And a lot of the people in that university aren’t particularly concerned about football. I honestly wonder if he really wants to stay here, but the administration has put pressure on him to back down.
To really be Elite in college football today you need to go hell-bent for leather in all aspects of the game, including recruiting and “player perks“. It’s not just about good recruiting and X’s & O’s anymore. That’s still a huge part of it, but it won’t get you over the top. Michigan does not want to do the things that are required. It’s to gauche for them. If the team went nine in for every year, lost to Ohio State 19 out of 20 years, and avoided any scandals or impropriety under the current watch, I firmly believe that the powers that be would be just perfectly happy with that. I’ve known a lot of professors, and a lot of academic alumni, and none of them care. I compare that to people from Ohio State or Alabama and the difference is stark.
That's brutal. I guess I shouldn't be surprised but I realize I'd still seen Miles with a kind of Michigan glow around him. Wrong.
Very OT but Les used to talk about finding his kids in Barkevious Mingo's dorm room at LSU. Came to mind when it came out what Mingo did to another young boy. Hope they were never abused.
Well it turned out to be just as bad for our program hiring RR. If I had to pick dates to the decline of Michigan Football as a national power house, I would say it started in Carr's final year (since he coached like he did not care any longer and lost to a div2a team.), and then the hiring of RR, then Hoke. Now we are stuck with Harbaugh that everyone said who would rebuild Michigan back into a football power. He started off well but has stalled. We'll see if Harbaugh can turn it around and get back on track like we all thought was very probable after his hire.