RIP victims of this tragedy and God bless their families. That's about all I have to say about that.
landing spot. will be interesting to see how he does.
RIP victims of this tragedy and God bless their families. That's about all I have to say about that.
What the fuck is wrong with people?
Unreal that something like this could happen in 2014.
it happened in 1996, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800
I tend to not believe the official TWA 800 story. Traces of PETN were found among the plane wreckage.
Bill Clinton and Louis Freeh (and a few select others) likely take that secret to their graves.
Always be skeptical of the "official government story."
And they say Penn State fans are conspiratorial...
One downvote for you for going off on an unrelated tangent.
(1) I think Freeh covered up TWA 800's true cause (why was PETN found in the wreckage?).
(2) I do not believe Freeh was involved in any cover-up re: Penn State.
Those 2 events have nothing to do with each other.
THIS was real:
The Soviets in 1983 shot down a Korea Airlines Flight even after confirming it was a civilian airliner.
about this. Interesting read, makes things not so black and white about this whole thing.
The US has done it before too...within another country's airspace.
Hell the US shot down a civilian jetliner a few years later while the plane was in it's own country's airspace. Now the malice wasn't there and may have been a mistake caused by various levels of negligence depending on who you ask, but still. Not good.
2014? Every new human brought into this world has a brain comprised entirely of moldable ignorance and nothing else. Doubt that will change any time soon. Toss in need, limited resources and egocentrism and our species is a collective mess with no end in sight.
Hopefully a thousand years from now, if man makes it that far without either destroying the planet or itself, people will look back at just how pathetically primitive man was around the 21st century in mitigating the fallacies of human nature. All of these nuclear weapons and incredible scientific and technological breakthroughs, but not the first concept about how to grapple with the egocentrism and ignorance behind all evil and ruin.
Eff Penn State, eff Ohio and then eff humans in that order.
Not much to say, just silent consideration and a bit of reflection. A terrible tragedy.
I'm trying to read between the lines, and keeping this unclassified, its interesting to read that rebels may have shot down this airplane while it was at 33,000 feet. Things afforded to that type of group typically don't have that sort of capability. I'll be interested to hear more as they get details in a few days.
As a general note for the thread, the Telegraph is updating its coverage and what is known / confirmed here - LINK
According to reports coming from the area where this happened, local residents apparently reported two loud bangs before the crash. Further, there has already been an effort to divert flights around this area and, according to the Telegrph, there is some confusion on whether or not this was an unsecured area for aviation given the conflict on the ground.
Regarding what has been said above, I wondered about this - it seems like the typical "out-there" group in the world would not have this sort of sophistication to shoot down a commercial aircraft (having a trasponder signal which would identify it as such, of course) at cruising altitude. I could be wrong here, of course.
I really don't know a lot about the region's various military type factions or weapon systems, but considering the area, is it possible there could be some older Soviet era weapons that rebels could get there hands on? 33,000 feet is well beyond the typical ground launchers, but for a sitting duck like an unsuspecting jumbo jet, I imagine one would not need the most advanced of surface to air missile platforms either.
I'm sure that getting their hands on that type of weapon, powerful but not terribly accurate, would be relatively easy depending on the group's skill. The weapons that reach that high aren't as easy as a shoulder launched missile, so the logistics are a bit more complicated.
The only way these guys got that weapon system is through the Russian government.
It's early, but there were some reports in the last few days that the rebels had gotten ahold of a BUK.
I would assume they "got a hold of" it like they got a hold of a lot of their weapons and gear... i.e. they were supplied by Russia to forment unrest.
They (the separatists) actually tweeted earlier that they had captured a Buk surface to air missile system, then after the crash they deleted the tweet.
There have been half a dozen Ukrainian military planes shot down over the last weeks. While it's possible it was all done with the same captured battery, it's more likely this is a more concerted effort to arm rebels by Russia. Also, there's the matter of where they learned to operate the weapons. It's not like these are RPGs, they're state of the art radar equipped AA stations, I doubt your average angry local separatist can just figure out how to operate these without some training.
As technology advances it gets cheaper. I am not any weapons expert but there were people on the ground with quite powerful anti aircraft "stuff" they could carry around on their shoulder even 10 years ago. So I can only imagine it is getting cheaper, and more powerful every 5 years. It makes one worry what is going to be around in 20 years.
All that said I wouldn't think anything out there that a "rebel" could haul around would be so easy to get at, at 33K feet.
In fact, I did predict that when I heard about it earlier this afternoon. Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with people? I know the US shot down an Iranian passenger plane in the Gulf back in the 80s, but at least the combatants or would-be combatants in that region were using planes for something. Is there any element of air war in the Ukraine fight, especially as large as an airliner that travels at that altitude?
Although I was in diapers, this has shades of 1983 with the Korean Air disaster where the Soviets shot down the airliner after it strayed into Russian air space, killing everyone on board.
That all said, my only comment for this disaster can be summed up by Admiral Josh Painter from The Hunt for Red October.
but Bo's pic (your avatar) looks a bit like Tom Clancy. Coincidence?
Usually I don't believe in coincidences, but this for this purpose it is...especially since I didn't make the connection that Bo indeed looks like Clancy here. I love those photos of Bo wearing those sunglasses in the 80s. Heck, I wish I owned a pair.
for Hunt for Red October reference
I was a Soph at Michigan at the time! Us older guys had to grow up with the threat of thermal nuclear war between the USSR and US from grade school right through college. Events like that scared the hell out of us! Luckily the MAD scenario scared the hell out of the USSR as well.
Just a sad sad day... Wonder if we will ever know the truth of what happened instead of a potential cover up
There's a lot of imagery that will be available along with, presumably, black boxes. Assuming an investigation is allowed to occur, there will be identification of substances that would pinpoint the type of missle.
Unless, as you noted, the whole mess is covered up.
Considering the region, we really may never get closure for a long, long, time if ever.
The mudslinging should get pretty furious between Russia and Ukraine with this one. Preliminary reports also stating 23 Americans on board. (EDIT: Perhaps still being confirmed)
295 on board the plane. I guess they don't count.
I'd venture to guess they're not the 'right type' of civilians
War is hell. How many civilians did the US kill in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Treading pretty close to the political realm there.
because the real world is 100% appalling to me. I can't wrap my mind around deliberately murdering civilians (and don't want to) so I'd rather spend my days stressing about things like 27-for-27 and pretend that's the worst thing ever.
Head, meet sand. Sand, meet head. Jeebus.
my wife sent me this text: "Let's do Chinese for dinner...in the news right now: Malaysia jet shot down over Ukraine and Israel had just begun ground and sea offensive in Gaza. Dow is back below 17,000".
We all need distractions. Tonight, ours will be beef and broccoli with spring rolls.
From what I gather, it sounds like it might be a case of mistaken identites. There has been a lot of warfare going on in that area. Various groups attempting to shoot down cargo planes filled with supplies. Looks like the pilot chose to fly through that airspace even through commercial airplanes are advised not to, and was shot down by someone who thought it was a hostile aircraft.
Mistakes all around coalescing into a tragedy.
Read a statement from Europe's main pilot group/union that the route they were flying is the most travelled/popular route from Europe to Kuala Lumpur or something like that. It's hardly an isolated decision by the captain. Lufthansa and Air France just released statements they won't be flying that route anymore.
I don't know why anyone would be allowing commercial flights over a war zone where they are trying to shoot down planes in the first place, but that seems like a good decision.
and yet I am not sure if this blog is the proper forum to discuss it in, even in the off topic season
People here generally do a decent job of not getting political with these type of things.
Actually, here is where I get a lot of my major breaking news. (Probably because I just happen to be on here so much)
The discussions are always pretty good as long as it does not go into the blame X politician or religion. Actually the rules against that allows for some good points and conversations.
Rough year for that airline
and the strife between Russia and the Ukraine, I hope the U.S. becomes more focused than we've been lately and plays a major role in calming things down, I'm not very confident of this happening though.
This is a scary time around the world.
But calming things down in the Ukraine is pretty tall order. There are people there who consider it a long-time family obligation to try to free Ukrainians from Russians - with violence if necessary. And there are people who consider themselves more Russian than Ukrainian. You have Putin using agents provocateurs on one side - so it's not always clear who represents what interests - and then fascists on the other side (though I don't mean to imply that all Ukrainian independence supporters are fascist).
There are no good answers there.
I hear what you're saying, it's a tricky thing, how to deal with it, it is quite puzzling.
I just hope all these situations don't end up leading to a much bigger war-like period, but it's getting increasingly more difficult to avoid maybe.
Why would the US get involved?
Good choice by FIFA to have the next World Cup in Russia. I'm sure people will be lining up for those tickets.
why Putin keeps getting rewarded with major sporting events is beyond me.
and Qatar has it in 2022, another not so great choice.
Money has a lot of power
Well, Hitler got to host the Olympics in 1936.
FIFA is probably the most corrupt private organization (non govt) on earth. If you have 13 minutes to spare google John Oliver FIFA and that probably only touches on the surface of it.
The IOC just gave Russia the Olympis...putin behaved for that month than immediately went to war after.
Funny how money works.
Sounds like they intercepted a radio transmission between the rebel groups and they thought it was an enemy plane and shot it down.
They started posting celebratory comments on facebook (what a weird world we live in), and then deleted them when they found out it was a civilian plane.
Let's hold off on jumping to conclusions. Remember, the Ukrainian military shot down a civilian airliner from Tel Aviv back in 2001 because they were holding missile tests and screwed up.
I don't think anyone is jumping to concrete conclusions. Just speculating.
The only thing we know for sure is that a plane crashed.
Anniversary of TWA 800.
No way "rebels" familiarize themselves with the radar targeting system over a couple days, to the point they shoot down a fighter, without someone running the targeting system for them.
MANPADs do not reach 30K feet, so this was NOT a smuggled SA18.
To the poster above; so the Ukranians also shot down their own Antanov cargo plane two days ago, and their own Su-25 yesterday, all in the same area? I don't think the rebels even have any air capability, certainly not going across Ukranian airspace to points east.
Ukraine is one of the foreign operators of that Russian anti-aircraft missile system you tried to link to (your link is broken).
So there are two possibilities, Ukraine or Russia. Both have a history of shooting down civilian airliners.
Your statements about the other airplanes are irrelevant. The Antanov was downed at a much lower altitude, the Su-25 probably by a Russian fighter.
Uhhh the Antanov was at about 21,000 feet. "Ukraine Defence Minister Valeriy Heletey said the plane was flying at an altitude of about 6,500 metres" http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/07/ukrainian-military-transport-plane-shot-down-201471423420802306.html
Not that much under a commercial airliner. Plus, I'm not familiar with the geography, but shooting from a mountain that is ~6,000+21,000range=28,000.
Ever wonder why the one weapon the US wouldn't give to the Syrian "rebels" (*cough* now ISIS) were long-range anti-air despite Assad's main tool being aircraft? It'd sure be bad to have a US anti-air missile take down an American plane in Baghdad.
And remember, the Ukrainian military is split, those saying Ukrainians couldn't "teach" themselves to fire these things? They were formerly IN the USSR.
1. The possible 23 families of the Americans on board
2. All other families who lost loved ones.
3. Israel and it's right to defend itself against all invaders and threats
Thanks, but I'll pray for ALL involved in the Middle East.
Interpol said the original manifesto had 23 US citizen on the flight. But most news agencies are saying no Americans on board? But then CBS news said they don't know and are still investigating, and now there are 20 that are of unknown origins? I don't get why our government is hiding the fact that 20 Americans were on the flight and were killed?
Annnnnnd Israel just invaded Gaza. Wonderful Thursday to everyone.