OT Alternatives for U of M for HS Senior?
My son will be a HS Senior next year. He has a 3.5 taking mostly AP classes and a 30 ACT the first time around with zero prep (just retook the test and I think may see a point or two improvement). Michigan is his first, second and third choice but we're looking for some backup plans.
Initially looking for schools within a 5 hour drive at roughly the same cost as U of M instate.
No defined major but will apply to LS&A and Art School. Has an interest in Environmental Science and Psychology but is pretty wide open at this point. Plays HS Sports so a good intramural program would be nice.
We're probably going to visit Hillsdale and Grand Valley and I've poisoned him on MSU. I can't see CMU/WMU/EMU Ferris, Northern, Mich Tech - any suggestions?
I wondered about U of C. Cost is not an absolute but I would like to retire at some point. I'm assuming it's normal to get a ton of mail (100+ pieces) from colleges these days? He has probably 6 pieces from U of C alone. OSU mail gets trashed immediately!
Yeah, that's normal. I got a LOT of stuff from UofC.
The one letter I got from OSU got returned-to-sender with a nice letter telling them what they could do with it.
Where fun goes to die? Doesn't sound like a BIG 10 school to me...
Yes, U of C (Chicago) is an outstanding academic institution. However, it ain't cheap. And I have met about 20-30 U of C undergrad alums, and not one of them was ever like, "yeah, i loved it!" when you ask them how they liked it. The shirts really do say "where fun goes to die." And I personally wouldn't want to live in Hyde Park for college. I'd rather go to Illinois or Wisconsin, which are pretty damn good schools, and would probably cost about the same out-of-state.
- it's small: has an enrollment of around 1400-1500 (at least when I was there)
- the social life is what you make of it... you will know pretty much on campus by sight, if not by name
- it's expensive, last I heard tuition had risen to Harvard like $30000 levels (but see below)
- class sizes can vary from large (~100+, which is large for K) to very small (5-10 kids)
+ it's close to Ann Arbor (about 90 minutes one-way)
+ there are lots of opportunities for scholarships, if he plays a sport, tuition/room board can be completely taken care of
+ has one of the best, if not the best, support for foreign study (it's almost a requirement actually)
+ K churns out a ton of kids to graduate schools, for its size, it's one of the best in the country
+ one of the premier D3 schools for men's tennis, the USTA holds an annual tournament there
+ if you visit, make sure you stop at a place called Chinn Chinn off of the Mattawan exit: hands down the best chinese/asian food in the entire state of Michigan... believe me I've about tried them all. Order the kung pao chicken and a bowl of the hot and sour soup... I'm drooling as I type this.
If he doesn't mind a smaller school, there are plenty of schools like K that he can consider... money at all of these places can be made equivalent to UM through relatively easy means. Some that come to mind in addition to K are Hope College (Holland, MI) and Albion (Albion, MI).
Regardless of whether you think he'll probably get it, you're right to check out other schools. People who reply stating that his GPA/ACT are easily sufficient probably don't know what they're talking about; there are people with better "stats" that don't get in each year, and extracurriculars, along with school quality, also matter a lot. Apply early - even if he was sure to get in, he's more likely to get scholarship money if he applies early as well.
(None of this is to denigrate your son, who does have impressive credentials, but being overconfident in college admissions can be a huge mistake.)
Anyway, Wisconsin or Illinois are reasonably good schools, and Illinois is 5-5.5 hours from Ann Arbor, so it's a doable weekend drive. You may be better off looking at specific departments if your son knows pretty strongly that he wants to do art; there are lots of little exceptions within majors that contradict the "hierarchy" of Big Ten schools.
I would not rule out MSU however. In terms of value + education, MSU and U of M are probably going to be the top two for your son, given his credentials; in-state tuition is a difficult deal to beat, and the schools that do beat it frequently have aspects (i.e. religion) that are dealbreakers for many families. Being a proud Michigan fan at MSU may get him some heckling, but it's not a reason to rule out a school.
"being overconfident in college admissions can be a huge mistake"
Agree, that's why we're working on a backup plan. My son is superfan, M gear almost every day. Daily reader of MGoBlog. I don't mind if he goes to State, but he does.
as an out of state alumni and let me confirm for you that it is now harder than it was to get into UM than it was even 8 years ago when I started doing the HS recruiting. The median academic performance of the freshman class has consistently gone up about every two years according to the literature I get as a recruiter. My advice to your son is to keep taking the ACT until he's over 30 and really try and get his GPA up as high as possible. The Art school has lesser academic standards than the rest of the U for admissions based on statistics, but there's the additional evaluation of portfolio that will be added into the admissions process. Best bet for admissions today based on your son's interest is to apply to LS&A and then transfer to Engineering when he gets on campus for a year.
If he gets waitlisted (which is MUCH more likely than outright rejection based on the numbers you put up), I have a couple items for you to consider:
1) If you want to do the transfer route, DO NOT go to a CC. Go to an accredited university that he can get a scholarship to and tell him to bust ass to get his grades up and start applying for transfer every semester past his first in freshman year. If his interest is in engineering, Western is a good school for that route as is Wayne St and Oakland U.
2) UM flint and UM Dearborn are fine options. They're UM schools, you're considered a UM grad, and for certain programs you get preference for summer research / visiting student programs in Ann Arbor. Plus, transfers from UM Flint and UM Dearborn are more probable to AA if they get their grades up in the highest percentiles at those schools. In fact, most of the intro classes you're going to take are going to directly count toward UM-A2 degree programs so that you won't even have to retake any classes. I think UM D and UM F also still get the chance to purchase football tickets for the Big House as well....
I got into U of M with a 3.8 high school GPA and a 30 on the ACT. (Like your son, I went into it totally unprepared, and came out with surprising results.) Honestly, a 30 on the ACT is great. That puts you in the top 10th percentile in the nation, which is a very good place to be. Apply early and tour campus to get a file started... They keep track of every interaction you have with them to guage your actual interest in the University. Have him make it absolutely clear that he wants to be here, and try to get him to apply by the middle of September.
My only backup school was State, 'cause I knew it would be so easy that my grades would help me transfer into U of M. :P
He has done a couple of campus tours and will apply early. I know he will make it clear he will accept if accepted.
If your son can't get into the University of Michigan, he probably won't get into the University of Chicago...That is one of the best universities in the US, and world. I also got a crapload of mail from them, but I also heard that their applications soared 42% this past year, making it more competitive than it already is..
I think your son is a pretty good fit for Michigan. Someone above said that michigan excludes freshman year grades and recalculates your GPA, but I believe that they stopped that just this year (might have to look that one up)
Also, I know that people have told you to make sure he applies early. This cannot be stressed enough, because Michigan is switching to the common application next year which means a significant increase in applicants..people that would not normally apply will
Michigan has one of the best and largest Intramural programs in the nation.
Over 300 Flag Football teams every year. Over 200 basketball teams, 200 soccer teams, etc etc. It's also a fun part time job to ref IM sports. Check it out.
Other good IM programs: OSU, Dayton, Ohio. WMU, CMU and GVSU are ok. MSU's sucks.
I'm sure you know this already, but it's extremely important that your son is well-rounded and active outside of school. Michigan has a habit (and I commend them for this) of turning down kids who have excellent grades but their grades are all they have. We pride ourselves on being leaders in all things, not just academics. If he's involved in a bunch of extracurriculars or plays a sport or two or does things in the community, he has a much better chance of being admitted.
That being said, my speculation is that he stands a good chance of making it into LSA. Engineering would be considerably more difficult. I would recommend MSU or Wayne State in order to transfer to keep costs somewhat down while still getting a good education...in fact I think Wayne is significantly underrated as a school (I'm from Detroit, so take this with a grain of salt).
Good luck.
Go Blue!
He may qualify for some merit aid at some of these which would bring down the cost
Earlham (IN), Ohio Wesleyan, Kenyon (OH), Denison (OH),Wittenberg (OH)
Less likely to get merit aid at Kenyon and Denison.
As far as public schools go, my daughter does to Miami U (not that Miami, unless we are talking about hockey). It is an excellent school. Large enough to be D-I, but undergraduate focused. Her grades and scores were similar to your son's and she gets $4000/year in merit aid.
Here's my take (UM grad, son went to UM undergrad and professional degree in the last few years):
1. Those grades are likely NOT enough. ACT score is good. Classmates of my son at a good Metro Detroit MI public HS did not get in with 3.8. The demand and competition are unbelievable. Legacy (parents as alums) doesn't mean squat.
2. Don't listen to anyone banging on MSU. It is MUCH better than it used to be for the simple fact of the caliber of the students they are admitting. My HS GPA of 3.4 in the late 1970s likely doesn't get me into MSU today.
3. There are other good colleges in MI, definitely some in the Big Ten. Go to a good school, do well, get a job for awhile and then look at your options (e.g., grad school).
Michigan is awesome, but it's not for everybody, including many students who can get in. The level of competition and workload in many undergrad majors makes it hard to have much fun and develop as a person outside the classroom. UM tries to "make big small," but that doesn't work for everyone.
Where you go to college is important, but in the long run you have to have some level of determination and persistence. Some UM grads I meet have an air of entitlement that gets old fast.
On the other hand, there are those certain students Michigan graduates who will truly change the world. Or sports blogging...
FWIW, I got admitted in 2001 with a 3.5 (roughly, maybe a bit lower) GPA, a 30 on the ACT and 1380 or 1320 (can't remember) on the SAT from a well-respected suburban school in Michigan.
I had some legacy stuff (brother was currently there, uncle and aunts had been (did that count?), grandpa had previously taught there) and a pretty well rounded extracurriculars and lots of AP classes.
Some say it's gotten harder since then, but I don't know that the GPA will immediately knock you out. Then again, I was concerned about mine at the time I applied.
I applied early and sent back basically the day I got the letter.
I was born and raised in a2. Relatives started graduating in the 1920's so I know a bit about the U. No one is banging on MSU's academics that I've read. I agree Michigan is not for everyone but I know my son would like to see if it's for him firsthand. Were those grades at the International Academy? Did they apply to the Art school or Engineering?
Who knows if he will get in, but as posters have noted grades and scores are a piece of the equation. Was just looking for some ideas at schools nearby not named MSU and got some great suggestions so far.
Michigan is switching to the common app this year, so that might make it harder to get in.
MSU gets a lot of flack around here, as does OSU and so on, but all are a very good schools none the less. MSU is not an exception. No, they are not up there with U of M, but they are fairly highly ranked in several areas, and are known to have good majors in business, engineering, physics, education, and kinesiology. Plus, if your son is looking at going to grad school, MSU is still a very good stepping stone to a school like U of M for grad work. Your son will get many connections, and can still get a very good education. I think, regardless of being a huge M fan or not, he should look at MSU as a back up, and I think it's a huge mistake not to. And I know very smart people that went to State that could have succeeded more than most at U of M. If you choose to take advantage of what they have to offer it can be a very great school. I also know of huge U of M fans at MSU, that visit mgoblog everyday, and so on. You may get some cross looks on occassion, but many of the people in East Lansing grew up Michigan fans, deep down they understand and unless your son does something to anger them, I don't think he'll face too many problems.
I hope he gets into Michigan, don't get me wrong, we all love Michigan around here more than any other school. But I think for value and education, MSU is a great back up plan to have in-state, and to dismiss that based on sports fandom is a mistake in my mind.
I'd comb through the top 25 public schools in the country, and factor in price, as well as athletics!
I'm so glad I went to Michigan (obviously great academics) but there are so many ways to network thanks to alumni outings that center around M football, basketball etc.
If I had to start over, I would have applied to more public schools like it (e.g. UCLA, Cal, GaTech, maybe Wisconsin etc.)
I applied to OSU's law school (Moritz) and was accepted.
I responded to their acceptance letter on Michigan stationery and laid out the numerous reasons why I would never attend that repulsive institution -- including, but not limited to, their love affair with seeds; being located in the armpit of America; and my permanent desire to avoid ever being a pizza delivery guy.
In addition, I included a photo of Desmond Howard striking the Heisman pose. Ahhh, the memories.
True story.
Very nice story, adds some levity to this thread.
I wouldn't sweat it. MSU and Grand Valley are good backups. I'd give the edge to MSU because outside of Michigan very few people know what Grand Valley is.
I do some academic recruiting for University of Michigan on a voluntary basis and have established a good relationship with the Admissions Office.
Grade point is #1 - of the 44 kids I assisted with for 2010, the lowest admitted was 3.6 with an ACT of 35. He must raise his grades. If he is planning on a non science major, physics is not a requirement. If he is interested in physics and will do well - it is a plus.
ACT is #2 and your son has a very nice score. He should take the ACT over, as you have indicated he will.
LSA is not the same as Art school. I will check to see if they might let him apply to both, but I have not heard of this being done..
Strong look at Art School as it is marginally easier to get into -the key is his portfolio review. For Art School his grades and acts are good. from there it is very easy to transfer into LS&A, or another U of M school - with the exception of Engineering.
Spring/Summer may be slightly easier - but no guarantees. If he's right on the edge, perhaps wait listed, it may be an option - otherwise it probably won't help.
Absolutely have him apply early.
As for other Universities - Grand Valley and Hillsdale are good options and he should have no trouble getting in. Has he considered either University of Michigan - Dearborn or Flint. They are easier to get into, but transferring to Ann Arbor after 2 years of very good grades is relatively easy - again with the exception of Engineering.
Hope this helps.
my sister (just graduated high school senior) applied to both umich art and lsa and made me damn proud by getting into both ....
of course, she then choose a private art school but whatever
Congrats to your sister. Awesome.
I applied in 1999 for Fall 2000 admission to LS&A with a 3.6 GPA and a 30 on the ACT, so my stats seem similar to your son's.
My freshman year, I came across an online article from The Michigan Review titled something like, "Can You Get Into Michigan?" The article included a questionnaire that was supposedly identical to the scoring rubric used by admissions at that time. I completed the form, and when my score was computed, I was one point over the cutoff for admission. What put me over the top was an additional few points for attending a superior high school (apparently admissions maintains a list of such high schools). I went to, arguably, the most rigorous college prep in a small southern state (which isn't saying much considering it's the south, but I digress), so I assumed it would receive the bonus.
The point is: in 1999 my admission was essentially a toss-up. Given that M’s admission standards have increased since then, I would definitely say your son’s shot of acceptance is at best 50%, a tossup. That said, he certainly has a shot.
Also, you shouldn’t dismiss out-of-state public universities based on cost. Many good schools give academic scholarships to students with credentials similar to your son’s. I was offered sizable scholarships at both the University of Wisconsin and the University of Maryland. I would strongly encourage your son to consider Wisconsin, Illinois and Penn State. They are all fine schools, and their academic reputations are far better than MSU’s.
They do allow dual application to Art and LS&A but it takes longer to hear from the Art school as they have to review the portfolio.
graduated in '08 with 3.6 gpa, 28 act, calc 1 &2 college classes under my belt, and 4 years of varsity baseball. was not granted admission out of high scool, was able to go to a community college for two years (3.9 gpa) and transfer into u-m's school of ed , it was a blessing, two years of free community college saved me about $50,000 in tuition
advice on this board for your son. I would suggest that if location matters in that your son wants to live ~5 hours of Metro Detroit all of the suggested schools will probably be OK. The issue that I see, which may be fine with him is that most of the other Michigan schools (even MSU) are very regional and/or excel in niche fields.
Probably the easiest solution is to expand your radius to incorporate some of the East Coast schools or other schools with good academics > 5 hours from Metro Detroit. Otherwise I see Flint/ Dearborn as the best options as nobody really cares where you start out your education, but they care where your degree is from.
Not that it matters, but in 96, I got into M with a ~3.4 GPA (barely top 10% of my HS class) and SAT of 1380/ 1600 without sports, but a ton of extra curricular activities.
I've said this before on other threads, but here's my philosophy. There are four types of schools that you should go to for specific reasons. 1. If a school has such a strong academic reputation (and if the applicant can get in) (s)he should go there, regardless of cost. There are only a few schools that fit this bill...the Harvards, MITs, etc. of the world. 2. If (1) isn't an option, (s)he should go to a large state school (not necessarily in-state) that has a well known sports program and a decent academic program. Cost should be considered (weighing financial aid, in-state vs. out-of-state tuition, etc.). 3. If (1) and (2) aren't available, (s)he should be choosing between one of two types of schools: 3a. A school with a recognizable city or state in the name or 3b. A school where the cost of tuition is dirt cheap.
It sounds weird, but the reason I say this is because it's incredibly important for a student to go to a school that has national recognition (especially in this economy and moving forward where people will be moving all over the country many times in their lives, regardless of where they are originally from). Option 1 gives you that right off the bat. Option 2 gives you something to connect with potentially employers, co-workers, graduate schools, etc. that are dispersed across the country. For example, an employer in Dallas may know more about Michigan football than Michigan's academic reputation. More people likely watch college sports than they pay attention to US News and World report. Option 3a and 3b weigh the cost of national recognition against the cost of tuition (for example, people in California will be able to connect more with the University of Arkansas than they would Grand Valley State, simply because of the name "Arkansas" in the title).
Basically, what I'm trying to say is use these reasons to pick a school. So if you go to a smaller school or a more unknown school, do it for the above reasons. It's worked really well for me, as I chose option (2) schools for both undergrad and law school.
Personally speaking, I've lived in 5 cities over 10 years, all across the country, and going to a school with a good sports program (i.e. Michigan) and a decent academic program was well worth the out-of-state cost. And you benefit greatly from the large alumni bases of these big state schools.
This is spot on. Having a nationally recognized brand is a huge advantage when applying for work in state where the residents have never heard of schools like Grand Valley State. Employers barely look at resumes to begin with; they're not going to take the time to google Adrian College.
Just my 2 cents, but definitely don't discount the bigger named places. They often are expensive, but name brand recognition for education can be massive. It has helped me throughout life in many, many ways.
...if this isn't accurate, but the HS attended is a factor in U-M admissions. And it's not just the schools academic reputation, they also looked at underserved populations. So, if your HS sends very few kids to Michigan, they may look at the application more favorably. Diversity is not just about racial and ethnic factors, it's about ensuring that the entire freshman class isn't made up of elite private and public school grads.
As an MSU grad I would have your son to rethink his decision. In your original post you stated he wanted to go into environmental science or psychology. The logical choice would be MSU for both of these programs (of course that is if he does not get into UofM). Refusing to consider MSU because he is a UofM fan may result in him going to a school where he would get an inferior education. I would suggest visiting MSUs campus with someone who went there before he rules them out. I suggest going with someone who went there because it can be a bit overwhelming if you don't know your way around. Also, you could visit some of the science labs on campus so that he could be exposed to the environment he would be in. This a great time of year to visit the campus because it is a great campus to walk around.
I've been there several times and my brother was a graduate from MSU. I don't think it's a superior education to K College or Hillsdale for that matter. He is more than a rabid fan and MSU won't fly for him. Much like the 1984 Tiger's World Series celebration gave Detroit a unwarranted image, the burning couches give him the same impression of State.
First, if his heart and head are set on UM and only UM (as mine was) then there have been some very good points on this post about how to increase chances of getting in. Hopefully you have donated to the U in the past as well, and if you haven't, I'd suggest you start now.
Second, if he doesn't get admitted as a HS senior, and still wants to attend, one thing that will most surely end up with admission is to attend a junior college for a year and ace that coursework. I did this. I made sure that I took all transferable classes, and was able to get a lot of the large lecture classes which involve a couple hours per week with a TA out of the way -- still had to take some, but it was a pretty good alternative. Don't know where you live, but I know several people who did the same after admission to UM Dearborn.
Third, if he's set on attending a four year college/university beginning as a freshman, and was thinking foremost of UM, I would seriously discourage you from something like GVSU, unless as a substitute to above junior college for a year.
Last, schools that I personally would consider for my kids, if they did not get in to U, would be Indiana, Purdue, Wisconsin, Notre Dame, Kalamazoo College, Albion, Miami Ohio. to name a few close by. Those are all larger schools, save for KCollege and Albion (both of which are clearly within your geographic requirements).
Good Luck!