OT'ish: Michigan or Harvard?
Anyway, she was asking me my opinion on colleges -- specifically Harvard, which she aspires to attend. And even more specifically, whether I felt a Harvard education (and subsequent cost) would open more doors and create the foundation for a happier life than a Michigan education at roughly a third the cost.
I'm a homer, and I will always encourage anyone who asks to attend Michigan. It's my opinion we are afforded a truly unique opportunity nationally to have access to an elite public institution at in-state rates. But after dinner I was left thinking -- if she were fortunate enough to be accepted to Harvard one day, would I REALLY encourage her to attend Michigan? I'm not so sure.
Great problem to have obviously. But I'm wondering if a Michigan education at a third the cost > Harvard Degree?
Thoughts?
EDIT: I should also mention, for the sake of this discussion, that we are NOT a rich family by any measure except love :-)
If she's accepted to Harvard, she should go. End of story.
I love and have 2 degrees from Michigan, but Harvard opens up way more doors.
If she can get accepted, go. As an undergrad, the same is true for Yale, Princeton, and Stanford. They are on another level.
I'm not debating whether a Michigan degree is as good as a Harvard one. The debate is --- is a Michigan under-graduate degree at a third the cost better than a Harvard degree, when you factor in assumed debt, the networking opportunities, graduate school options, alumni advantages, etc. The total package. It's not just as simple as Harvard>Michigan. Or maybe it is.
Well, the debate on price depends on your income. Thanks to its ridiculous endowment, Harvard uses a sliding scale for tuition expenses for families making <$180,000 a year and below a certain threshold you go for free if you can get in.
If she gets in, she should go. Can always do grad school at Michigan if she wants.
I'm in law school at Yale, and professional/graduate programs have, as a rule, LESS generous financial aid than their undergraduate counterparts. Still, with the amount of grant and scholarship aid I've gotten, I'm paying roughly the same amount it would cost me to go to UMich Law (as an in-state student, no less).
Ivy financial aid is awesome for those of us in the 99%.
which would help make the Michigan undergrad more attractive, but there is a way to have the best of both worlds. A UM undergrad and then followed up with a Harvard MBA would be a wonderful mix with the MBA opening all the doors one would want. World class program.
Harvard's financial aid is so good that, depending on your income, it could very well be the cheaper option. If a student is admitted, the college will provide enough aid so that the student will be able to attend. It's that simple. For many families, this means a full ride.
http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/financial_aid/hfai/index.html
That 60k is basically like hospital prices. Very few people actually pay that. Harvard means it when they say that if you get admitted, they will make it financially possible for you to go.
As noted on the link I posted, by 2016 families with incomes $150k and less will have an expected parental contribution of 10% of their income or less. They don't say it directly, but that implies families with even higher incomes will get at least some help.
Besides, our speculating about it is a bit useless. The only way to find out is to get admitted and see what the final aid package is. It would be stupid to not apply based on the assumption that it is unaffordable. In my own experience, Harvard was the cheapest option, except for substantially lower tier schools. That's not to say it was easy on my parents or that I had no debt, but they are pretty good at working with you to make sure you can go there if you get in.
Besides, for people who live out-of-state, it's another ball game altogether. Out-of-state tuition at Michigan is quite pricey.
Michigan is way down the list for ROI from where it usually ranks academically, both for in state (122) and out of state (186): http://www.payscale.com/college-education-value-2013 Whereas despite the cost Harvard (15), et al are still at the top. (Yale not as much.)
Bottom line: if she gets into Harvard, she should go.
I don't disagree with your advice in general, but I take the payscale data with a grain of salt.
It is difficult to control for the effects of grad/professional degrees (that is, say you went to Michigan for undergrad but got your MBA from Duke. Who gets the credit for your salary? Michigan or Duke?). To avoid this complication, the ROI calculations were made using ONLY alums who had stopped at the baccalaureate degree. People who got JDs, MBAs, MDs, MEng, MFAs, you name it--left out of the calculation. That is true at every school on the list. Thus, the ROI only really tells the story for a subset of graduates, and the more elite the school, the smaller and more skewed that subset may be.
This is rarely explained in articles which use the payscale data.
The upshot is, if you think you may pursue a grad degree someday, then the payscale ROI doesn't necessarily apply to you.
this is a hot topic of discussion in my household.
One of the side discussions is how skewed this may be by post grad, degrees offered (e.g., Ga Tech and Cal Tech), and professional employment rates and cost of living based pay scales in specific locations (i.e., if you go to school and live in San Fran or Boston or New York, you may have a much higher salary so it looks like a better ROI, but your cost of living is so much higher that it isn't).
The conclusion we came to is the ROI data is one more data point to consider. If I lived in Michigan, Michigan would be the number 1 choice for both. Here in NC it is UNC. Out of state tuition at Michigan creates huge ROI questions versus say Georgia Tech. I've way biased my middle son though, so we may have to navigate our way through that in a few years.
Agree with other posters though: if your kid makes Ivy, spend some serious time evaluating the needs based tuition program.
I say Harvard. You'll probably get more financial aid from there anyway so the cost should even out.
I went to Cornell and Michigan Law and I am very happy to have attended each of those schools, but at the end of the day, the value of your education is what you make out of it.
Disagree.
There are cases where the Harvard degree won't open any more doors than the UM degree or give an incremental benefit that isn't worth the cost of tuition.
I'm specifically thinking of engineering.
I've worked for NASA and DoD for 13 years, and rarely have encountered Ivy league graduates during my career. The ones I have encountered haven't had doors opened for them that weren't available to graduates at other top engineering schools.
If she's undecided or doesn't want engineering, than yeah Harvard. The opprotunities in business, public policy, or law are just too great and no university can compete with them. Especially if she wants to do something that might be constrained to a limited number of academic positions (ie theorhetical astrophysics or 15th centurary Irish lit). In those cases, having an Ivy league degree gives you the cache to land one of the few academic positions available.
But if she wants to do engineering, then UM.
I agree. If you want to do engineering I can't see a single benefit to Harvard.
I'm an engineer. Graduated UM in '94. I honestly don't think going to Harvard over Michigan would have done a damn thing for my career. In fact, it probably would have HURT my career, because I've actually worked with and for several other people that went to Michigan (mind yoiu this was not IN Michigan) but very few from Harvard or the other Ivy Leagues. More from Yale than most of the Ivys. So my Michigan background actually afforded me MORE networking opportunities than a Harvard background would have. Plus, at the compaines I worked for, a Michigan engineering degree was pretty much held in higher regard than a Harvard one.
So I agree with the poster above--anyone wanting to do engineering should pick UM over Harvard and not look back. Really, when it comes to engineering I don't think Harvard should even be considered. I think then, you should be asking UM vs MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech, Cal Berkeley etc.
In fact, in the latest US News ratings, Michigan is #7 in undergrad engineering programs. Which means that if you're in-state, it's a no-brainer.
But I realize that the question wasn't just about engineering.
To answer this question it seems we'd need to know her intended major and career aspirations. It's hard to say which is "better" without that information.
Either way, I hope she's fortunate enough to have to make a difficult choice between two great options.
Ed White (Michigan Grad) was the first man to walk in space. Gemini 4 and Apollo 15 were all U of M crews.
I also read that Apollo 15 arranged a formation of rocks on the moon in the shape of a certain letter of the alphabet.
Edge: Michigan
No debate
I was accepted to both schools. My parents knew about Michigan, and my mom is an alum. I didn't tell them about Harvard, because while I was an advanced student, I didn't think I would get it.
I stupidly decided to go to GMI, two fucking semesters before they announced the name change to Kettering and told my class we would be getting a diploma that said Kettering on it, unlike the classes ahead of us getting a diploma that had both names on it.
So, in the end, I chose very poorly on all fronts. If she can go for free, do Harvard. If cost becomes a huge issue, go with Michigan. Although I'm assuming from my time visiting as a high school student and then later as an adult while a friend did her post-PhD work there, that Harvard would be better suited to someone so young going to school.
You got into Harvard and Michigan and choose GMI (Kettering)? Seriously?
Even if GMI gave you a full ride, how do you turn down Harvard?
GMI gave me enough money to go that I couldn't turn it down. Due to family issues, the government said no to financial aid, even though I was living on a single income. I was out of state, so Michigan was around $25K/yr and Harvard was even more.
GMI was going to cost me about $6K/yr after financial aid and the job placement that I got when I enrolled. So five years at GMI would end up costing the same as one year at the other schools. Seeing how I was dead-set at the time on getting into automotive marketing, it seemed like the best choice.
With all do respect this seems like a terrible decision. If I was in that situation there is no doubt I would rule out GMI right away.
I'm glad I was able to not get sucked into six-figure debt because of college. Especially considering that I've realized in my 30's that I hated what I was doing and have gone back to school to be a teacher. If I had gone to Harvard of UofM I probably would have come to the same conclusion, but not been in a position financially to make a huge life change. So, while a degree from either of them would have been great, I can still apply to grad school.
I think this decision makes evident that both schools make a poor decision accepting you.
Glad to have your opinion.
Also, if your daughter is as smart as you paint her, college probably isn't going to cost her anything regardless of where she goes.
Harvard does not award merit-based aid.
FWIW I was also a grade-skipping (only one though) 12 year old 9th grader - ended up with 35 on my ACT, took tons of AP classes, and took differential equations at a community college while still in high school. I got into Michigan Engineering with a roughly 50% scholarship, but got turned down by MIT. Like I said, crapshoot. Being female would have helped with MIT, but probably not the case at Harvard.
Sorry to be a dose of cynicism, just wanted to add some perspective from someone who was a lot like you describe your girl when I was her age. You and her are both askin the right questions.
Engineering or business? Michigan. Law or medicine? Harvard. Both Michigan and Harvard open a ton of doors and have excellent reputations among employers. Harvard probably opens a few "old boys clubs" that scoff at any non-ivy, though the relevance of that probably depends on her chosen field and where she wants to live after college.
Note that getting into Harvard is something of a crapshoot for a non-legacy regardless of academic scores, so it's good that she recognizes the value and quality of a Michigan education as well.
Very dependent on major/career aspirations/etc. Generally speaking, however, your final degree is the one that matters. If she is going to pursue med school / grad school / law / etc, Michigan is **probably** a better bet given the cost differential. If she is going to head to the workforce after undergrad, go to Harvard (but for engineering go to M). The exception to this logic is if her salary will be tied to her degree and not her qualifications (eg teacher, social worker). Then debt is a huge consideration. Of course, if she thinks she might meet her future husband in college, Harvard may be better in that respect as well (as far as average future earnings and social standing).
she doesn't sound like she's going to get her Mrs. degree.
For me, at least, going to college wasn't PURELY an academic decision, but also a life decision. Harvard is obviously a great school, but its in a big city, and Cambridge can be a little overwhelming. It really depends on what she wants to do academically too. If she has major aspirations, undergrad won't matter a ton since she'll assuredly be moving on to law school, med school, phd school etc. I think when the time comes, visit both, and she'll know. Most of us alums went to Ann Arbor the first timeand just felt IT. It's really not tangible, especially deciding between two GREAT academic institutions. Also, I give her kudos for not letting those gifts go to waste. I know many very intelligent kids who just didn't give a damn growing up. Great job keeping her fire going.
I think when the time comes, visit both, and she'll know. Most of us alums went to Ann Arbor the first time and just felt IT.
Faced with a similar dilemma I made what probably would seem to most people an odd choice of school, but I've never doubted it was right because I'd visited both and I knew where I wanted to be for the next four years.
I don't know whether it's possible to make that decision at 12, and I'm sure it isn't possible to make it without a visit. And I'm even more sure that a parent can't make the decision. Whatever she decides, go with it. She can't be wrong either way.
...Harvard. It's the gold standard.
Having attended Michigan (and UNC-Chapel Hill) and now working at Harvard, let me insist: I love Michigan, and I am proud of my degree, but it's not close.
Also: Most of the ivies now offer financial aid packages that are really amazing. At Harvard, for example, if your family's income is less than $150K/year, you pay 10% of your income to attend. That will be less than Michigan even for an in-state student.
I can testify that this is true. My wife and I both graduated from Michigan. We live in-state. We make a decent middle-class living. When our son was accepted at both Harvard and Michigan, it was easy to do a price-comparison, and there is no comparison. Michigan was 15K more expensive/year than Harvard.
Well both were good enough for Ted Kaczynski
My opinion is that if she is that smart and that driven then regardless of where she goes, she will be successful. My chief concern would be where she fits best socially considering she's going to be so much younger than everyone else. As far as the money goes, my understanding from talking to Ivy League alumni, is that if you get into an Ivy League school, they make sure you can afford it.
1a) Harvard, Yale, Princeton
1b) Michigan
2) Any In-State school (You can skip #2 if money is no object)
3) Northwestern, Duke, Stanford, and the rest of the Ivy League
4) Any out-of-state Top 25 public school (UVA, UNC, Cal, Texas, UCLA)
5) Any out-of-state Big 10 school (other than "9")
6a) University of Religion (SMU, Baylor, BYU, Notre Dame, etc.) (if "higher" learning is so desired)
6b) Out-of-state "niche" private (Oberlein, Carnegie Melon, Oral Roberts, etc. )(#6 can be ranked higher if the "big school" experience is not saught)
8) Just start working for dad right out of High School
9) Sparty, Ohio State, Illinois
Their undergraduate engineering is ranked above Michigan's and they have the number three undergrad business school in the Big Ten.
Also it's obviously not an all-inclusive list, but I think you're missing a few from your 1a and 3 lists. USMA, USNA, USAFA, MIT, Caltech, Chicago for starters.