Meyer's tactics with Dunn Recruitment
In short, Meyer gave him an ultimatum that if he took that final visit to Michigan that they were going to pull his offer. Bold move on Meyer's end. The man certainly thinks highly of himself. I wonder if this will be a tactic he uses against us in other close head to head battles or whether it was a one time thing.
http://www.nationalfootballauthority.com/2012/03/ohio-state-buckeyes-new-hc-urban-meyer.html
March 23rd, 2012 at 12:45 PM ^
All this tells me is that Meyer feels seriously threatened by Michigan. Oh well, guess we just have to settle for Deveon Smith and Ty Isaac. That sucks.
willing to bet one of them will have more career rushing yards than Dunn.
I'm willing to bet both of them will, but that's an easy bet especially if Isaac goes elsewhere (PLEASE DON'T)
Well, I'm betting that's a pretty safe bet since Urban has never produced a 1,000 yard rusher and we had 2 last year.
This is the exact same strategy that Hoke uses. Dunn was committed to OSU and Meyer said if you take more visits we will pull your offer. Same thing happend to TE Brown. This illustrates how delusional the Michigan fanbase really is. Hoke is praised, and Meyer is villified for doing the same thing.
It's not the exact same thing. Read the thread. Brown's offer was still there even after he visited Oregon. He could have recommitted after his visit as long as nobody else took his spot, which nobody did. Meyer gave Dunn an ultimatum. Also, we didn't go through three different coaching staffs and change to an unfavorable offense for Brown's skillset while he was committed to us.
Meyer also came out and publicly said he didn't really like Dunn. That's a dick move no matter who says it.
Yes, saying Dunn is not that good is a dick move but it is irrelevant in an analysis of whether Hoke's recruiting practice was similar to Urban's move. This information came out a while ago, right after Dunn ended up recommitting to Ohio, and the consensus seemed to be it was a dick move but we can't be too critical of it since it is somewhat similar to what Hoke does.
The difference is that Hoke explicitly makes it clear that your spot will not be saved if you want to take visits and the coaches will not consider you committed before anyone commits so they know the deal. Dunn's situation was murkier since he committed before Urban was there, there was the issue of NCAA sanctions, and Ohio wasn't practicing the Hoke strategy and did not inform Dunn this could happen to him. And as you mentioned, Hoke doesn't pull your offer but your spot is just open. Urban threatened to pull the offer. This is just more evidence that he is a dick and will engage in questionable practices to win. From what we have seen of Hoke so far he is nothing like that.
You make some good points. It pretty much came out of nowhere in Dunn's case because he had been visiting Michigan and the coaches had visited him, then all of a sudden it's no longer acceptable. Hoke is very clear from the beginning that if you commit you're done taking visits.
It's the same idea, but these two situations aren't as comparable as some people are trying to make them out to be in my opinion.
I agree, these situations are not very similar. Hoke has a policy, for all recruits, all the time.
This suggests that Urban was OK with Dunn taking visits for a while (or at least didn't pull his offer for those), then got sick of it and told him if he goes again, his offer was pulled.
That doesn't make sense. Urban got the job after all of Dunn's visits to Michigan. I don't believe Dunn visited after Urban was hired.
This is only an issue becuase it's Ohio State and Urban Meyer. There's nothing real here.
He didn't make any visits to Michigan after Urban was hired? I thought that wasn't the case.
I cannot prove it, but I am pretty sure Dunn visited after Urban was hired.
If you listened to/read Sam Webb or TVH, after Brown visited Oregon the Michigan staff cut ties. If Brown wanted to recommit the staff would not have let him. Exactly same tactic here.
If by "the Michigan fanbase" you mean, "that one guy who posted on an Mgoblog message board," I'm totally with you!
double post...uh.....woozle wuzzle?
all it tells me is that the op wasn't paying attention 2 months ago when this exact statement was made.
March 23rd, 2012 at 12:45 PM ^
Of course. If Meyer pulled Dunn's offer, he couldn't have lost a recruiting battle to Michigan.
March 23rd, 2012 at 12:47 PM ^
Ah, doesn't MICH kinda do this? If you take visits, you are not committed.
March 23rd, 2012 at 12:47 PM ^
They sure do
March 23rd, 2012 at 12:53 PM ^
I don't think its a vast gulf of a difference but apparently Michigan's staff says: "you're not committed" (if you take other visits) not necessarily "you're not welcome here anymore."
I think that's a huge difference, actually. Telling a kid that he's not committed if he takes other visits means "as of right now, we're considering your spot open and will reopen our recruiting for your position." But the kid could easily turn around - after 5 minutes, 5 days, or 5 weeks if his spot isn't filled - and recommit. Pulling an offer is the end of the line.
Let's be honest with ourselves. When the coaches say that recruits who take visits aren't allowed to be committed do you honestly believe that under normal circumstances that they would allow them to come back around months later and recommit. I'll believe it when it happens and so far it has not.
These tactics are ESSENTIALLY the same thing. I don't blame the coaches for it, they have a job to do and do it well. But don't act as though our coaches and Ohio coaches are playing by a different set of rules. It's naive at best and disingenuos at worst.
Capitalizing essentially doesn't make your point any stronger. Granted they are similar, but, as I mentioned above, Hoke explicitly makes it clear how he practices recruiting and you will not be committed. When Dunn committed to Ohio, he was not informed of this at all.
Also, Hoke might and probably would take some kids back if they visited elsewhere and decided Michigan was the place for them. We haven't had an opportunity to see what happens when this occurs because the only situation was the Brown case where the coaches told him about their policy and he didn't inform the coaches he was going to take some visits. Trying to sneak visits behind the coaches back was the reason that Brown was not exactly welcomed back into the fold. If anyone is up front with Hoke and tells him they want to take visits I am sure he would take them back if they still had spots left.
Edit: Also, this was a head to head recruiting battle where Dunn was deciding between two schools and is different than taking 3-4 official visits to see what other schools are like.
When the day comes that a kid decommits, goes on a non-michigan visit and then recommits right after with that recommitment being uncondionally accepted by the coaching staff will I believe that there is nothing more than meets the eye to the coaches stated policy on recruits taking visits.
I thought we pulled Pharaoh Brown's offer.
Also, Dunn had been to Michigan numerous times before and he had in-home visits from the coaching staff (not to mention his cousin is committed to Michigan).
What more would 1 last visit do? Urban was correct to issue the threat (and it worked).
Sometimes, these tactics will backfire on coaches, sometimes they will work.
I don't know if we pulled his offer or not, but I think the coaches were upset with him in large part because he tried to be sneaky about the visit. It probably would've been different had he told them what he was doing.
Hoke said if a commit visits other schools, he's no longer considered a commit. I never heard that his scholarship was rescinded-big difference.
We kept recruiting him after we told him we didn't consider him a commit.
I really don't think this is right.
http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/goodbye-pharaoh-brown
The gist of that thread was that Brown didn't tell the coaches about his trip to Oregon, so they pulled his offer. It's not exactly the same as the Meyer thing here but it's close. We didn't just "consider him uncommitted" and continue to recruit him and others....we stopped recruiting him, period.
March 23rd, 2012 at 10:26 PM ^
Yes I remember that was the perception at the time. It later came out (as much as things can "come out" from paysites that don't reveal their sources) that they continued recruiting him without considering him committed.
If the other guy does it it's bad.
Yes we do. Not a big deal IMHO
March 23rd, 2012 at 12:47 PM ^
I find nothing egregious or even special about this tactic, especially seeing as this doesn't seem to be a rare recruiting strategy even with our own coaches (see Pharoah Brown and Michigan).
Why do people keep mentioning Brown. Different circumstances:
He was told that if he took a visit, he would no longer be considered a commit. I firmly believe he could've come back if he wanted to had the position not been filled. He tried to be sneaky about the visit. If he had his scholarship pulled, it was because he tried to go behind their backs, not because he visited another school.
I'm not saying that one tactic is morally better than the other but the Pharoah Brown situation was very different than telling a recruit that his scholarship will be pulled if he takes a visit.
We seem to all be comparing Brown to Dunn's situation because it's pretty damn similar. I know there are differences to the wording and exact situations, but ultimately both situations came down to "if you visit somewhere else, you may come back to find we changed the locks on ya while you were gone."
I get what you're trying to say, but saying it's not the same thing it pretty much like pulling a Vanilla Ice here...
March 23rd, 2012 at 12:47 PM ^
I hate urban as much as the rest of you but this isn't really a big deal. We essentially did the same thing with Pharoh Brown visiting Oregon. He visited and we essentially stopped recruiting him. Sucks but it's an insurance policy for the coaches. these kids can switch commitments at any time and leave the coaches hanging. The coaches have to protect themsevles against getting left at the altar somehow
March 23rd, 2012 at 12:48 PM ^
March 23rd, 2012 at 12:55 PM ^
Hoke's stance was if someone else committs at your position, he is going to get it. He never completely pulled the scholarship.
Big difference there.
so who replaced Brown at TE?
Maybe the coaching staff didn't see anyone else that they liked at that position and instead chose to pursuit other players.
You ever heard of a kid named Sam Grant?
No one ended up filling it, be we tried, remember? That's part of the gamble. If one of the TE's we offered would have committed, and Brown wanted back, we would have told him no. As it stood, neither of those things happened, but it could have, which is the point.
Similarly, had Brionte taken the visit to Michigan, it's also possible that he could have gone back to Urban asking in, and I bet Urbs wouldn't have stuck with his word and Dunn would have had a spot still.
Urban was probably lying. But there's another difference, if only you believe that Brown could've had his spot back if he had reaffirmed his commitment. I'm not sure what evidence there is to think Hoke was also lying, other than people thinking that in that situation, they'd have been lying. But that says a lot more about them than Hoke. (As for the people who just fail to see even a potential difference, who knows what to say to those folks?)
Not true. He lost his spot, which is not the same. Hoke has never said he'd pull an offer form a committed kid who visits elsewhere, just that he considers them uncommitted. There's a big difference. Now, once you decommit from a school, that school can decide to fill your spot, or not accept your commitment the next time around.
It's like giving up your reservation at a restaurant. You can call back in later and try to get another on, but it might not be available the second time around.