Maybe the 3-3-5 isn't a Conspiracy to Ruin Michigan
This doesn't prove a whole lot, but for those that think the 3-3-5 is just a failed scheme some loser made up to ruin our beloved Wolverines, I thought this was relevant from ESPN Insider Bruce Feldman
"Their defense came out and showed us a lot of different looks that we hadn't really seen," Thomas said. "So we had to adjust some things on the fly. But I'll give it up to their defense. They did a good job."
That 3-3-5 defensive look that so many Michigan fans hate? It was something Cal used quite a bit Saturday night, employing man coverage in the secondary and utilizing 6-foot-3, 212-pound strong safety Chris Conte to spy Thomas.
So the 3-3-5 was able to stop the unstoppable Ducks offense, maybe it is Jimmies and Joes and not x and o's.
On a totally unrelated my brain has a.d.d. note. Did anyone else notice our nose tackle A. Patterson slowing up to stay with Cam "I carry pianos on my back" Gordon on the fumble return? Go watch the clip and tell me Patterson couldn't have beat him to the house.
November 15th, 2010 at 3:39 PM ^
Yeah, but that is the Pac 10. The 3-3-5 will never work in the Big Ten, just like the spread.
November 15th, 2010 at 3:44 PM ^
I'd rather have Casteel.
I can't get over Brian's breakdown of UM, and not having the defensive players in the correct allignment. That can be corrected.
I still think we need a new DC.
November 15th, 2010 at 4:12 PM ^
RR feels the exact same way. Unfortunately, Casteel has twice rebuffed us.
November 15th, 2010 at 4:48 PM ^
And West Virginia isn't going anywhere.
Casteel needs RichRod, and RichRod needs Casteel.
November 15th, 2010 at 5:08 PM ^
I don't want him to meet Brandon (at least, not until after he's hired). If you're a good assistant, the last thing you want is to have confusion about whom you're reporting to. It's RR's program. He reports to Brandon, but his assistants report to him. If Brandon tries to micromanage, we'll be in trouble. The only thing he should do is allocate enough money for RR to offer a competitive coordinator's salary.
November 15th, 2010 at 5:15 PM ^
Well lets hope money can be an issue then...
I like the West Virginia defense, and their team speed on defense. I think it'd also be a much easier transition.
November 15th, 2010 at 4:52 PM ^
That's right -- only the 9-1-1 (featuring nine BIG guys up front that will hit you in the mouth) will work in the Big Ten. It's too cold for anything else.
- - -
Really -- to hear some people tell it, Wisconsin plays ten TOUGH 400-pound guys on the line that run sub-5.0 forties and never miss a block. If it were that @#$%ing easy, every team in the country would run POWER football.
November 15th, 2010 at 6:39 PM ^
November 15th, 2010 at 3:41 PM ^
I don't remember seeing Patterson running, but I do remember thinking, "wow why is Cam moving in like slo-motion, he should be there by now." I couldn't believe how slow I thought he was running, he looked tired (not saying it's easy to do but still).
November 15th, 2010 at 3:42 PM ^
But I thought he was slowing up just to get a chance to smack someone
November 15th, 2010 at 3:43 PM ^
No I specifically remember this... i couldn't figure out if Cam was slowing down in case he needed a block? He looked very slow. Or Patterson should be a Safety.
November 15th, 2010 at 5:02 PM ^
I think Cam was slowing down so that his blockers could catch up to him a little bit. He was running faster, then slowed down a bit, then started a little faster again.
November 15th, 2010 at 5:13 PM ^
And think about it. He could have been tackled if he had tried to pass his blockers.
November 15th, 2010 at 5:25 PM ^
that Cam Gordon could beat all of us in a race.
November 15th, 2010 at 7:03 PM ^
Not all of us are out of shape.
November 15th, 2010 at 7:11 PM ^
between "not out of shape" and "D-1 football athletic linebacker shape."
November 15th, 2010 at 8:39 PM ^
Won't argue that, but I'd still put money on myself in that particular race.
November 15th, 2010 at 3:55 PM ^
I couldn't believe how slow I thought he was running,
That really is something.
November 15th, 2010 at 6:30 PM ^
Cam gives us the beef to run what is actually a 3-4 with an athletic fourth LB/S hybrid (people seem to hate the 3-3-5 in theory alone but if we call it a 3-4 the griping goes away). For all the talk about lack of size, the only places we are really undersized is with Martin at NT and Roh at DE but because they are so athletic, it can work. Although it makes me want to puke on myself to even bring it up, the Giants go undersized all the time up front to get their pass rush going and it worked to perfection against the Patriots in the biggest dong punch superbowl of all. With everyone except Mouton back next year (plus Woolfolk and Floyd returning from injury) we really have a lot of pieces in place and should be a solid defensive team next year whether we run the 3-3-5, 3-4, or 4-3.
November 15th, 2010 at 3:52 PM ^
I think any defense with experienced players can work as long as you confuse the offense. There doesn't seem to be any dominant defense out there that is better than any other. I think defenses depend on situations within the game instead of debating what to line up in beforehand.
p.s. I like your extra box.
November 15th, 2010 at 3:49 PM ^
I've never been that concerned with the 3-3-5. My concern is that our DC and position coaches are not on the same page. I think Gerg and Shafer had different ideas of how to run a defense than RR's staff from WVU.
If we get a staff that is on the same page and some more experienced and impactful players we will be fine 3-3-5 or not
November 15th, 2010 at 3:49 PM ^
a freak athlete; he's just not big enough to play NT and I think his technique isn't great. He has linebacker speed in a DT's body. Cam has linebacker speed too, which is why it's good he's at his natural position instead of at FS. Vinopal has looked good out there. He's fast and a pretty good tackler when not vastly outsized (gulp, Wisconsin).
November 15th, 2010 at 4:49 PM ^
How appropriate that Captain Obvious would come to the rescue here.
There's not much more to tell; ESPN saw his athleticism and "upside" back in '06, too:
http://insider.espn.go.com/college-football/recruiting/player?id=27571&…
Great athlete, so-so football player ...
November 15th, 2010 at 4:08 PM ^
I saw Alabama in the 3-3-5 stack this weekend against Miss. State. First thing I thought was Michigan and wondered if Alabama coached it's players to be in the right position.
November 15th, 2010 at 4:11 PM ^
Maybe that's just the difference between seasoned veterans on defense versus lolfreshmen in the backfield.
November 15th, 2010 at 4:43 PM ^
race was pretty apparent /amazing.
First thought: I can see why Cam struggled in coverage.
Second thought: "With the 194th pick in the NFL draft, the New England Patriots select Adam Patterson, defensive tackle, Michigan."
November 15th, 2010 at 4:46 PM ^
With the younger guys like Demens and Vinopal. Moving Cam and Roh down has also helped. We're making progress.
November 15th, 2010 at 4:56 PM ^
I totally agree. It's nice to see those guys in their natural positions.
November 15th, 2010 at 4:46 PM ^
it's always jimmies and joes, not Xs and Os.
November 15th, 2010 at 4:54 PM ^
Sure, there's RPS and "chess matches" and whatever, but it really boils down to the fact that if the guy on the other side of the ball beats your guy, you just can't do much about it.
November 15th, 2010 at 4:56 PM ^
i just want to find a new dc that runs the 3-5-3 or 3-3-5 i think its actually called 3-5-3 but i digress. I think the new dc should run the 3-5-3 because thats what the coaches know how to run if not they all D assistants need to be let go and the new dc should have FULL and TOTAL control of assistants hires and scheme.
Hail
November 15th, 2010 at 5:01 PM ^
More of a response to Feldman here, but whatever. If we were to come out in the 46, it would probably blow Pryor/OSU's mind. If you practice against something all week, and then have to block/read something else come Saturday, you're going to sputter for atleast a little while. Compound that with the fact that teams don't always come out to play, and you get the Oregon-Cal game of this past weekend. (Note: I'm not suggesting we do that, I understand the implications of changing anything defensively at this point). Defense is almost entirely about the players (as the OP and many others suggest), any logical scheme employed with the 1997 Wolverine defense would probably have quite a bit of success.
November 15th, 2010 at 5:06 PM ^
The 3-3-5 is used to address spread teams like Miss State and Oregon. None of the top teams in our conference run an offense like what Dan Mullen or Chip Kelly dial up.
November 15th, 2010 at 5:17 PM ^
OSU does a good portion of the time. Actually, almost every team in the country has a spread package. But when those teams go power, we've usually responded with a 4-4 or 4-2-5..
November 15th, 2010 at 5:45 PM ^
is a Spread team that might occasionally go power not the other way around. Hence you are better starting a in 4-4 or 4-3 and moving to a 3-3-5 or 4-2-5 to match the tendencies of the teams we play in our conference. I am just looking at every other D in the conference including newcomer Nebraska runs their base defensive sets.
November 15th, 2010 at 7:26 PM ^
The relevance is that I was hoping to maybe convince 1 person in the world that knows nothing about football but calls radio stations and says RR is stupid for running the 3-3-5 it will never work" that it is possible to use it and stop people.
I understand that we have chosen to be a multiple defense and adjust our set up based on the offenses personnel and down and distance and we won't be running much 3-3-5 vs Wisconsin.
November 15th, 2010 at 5:33 PM ^
Mike Martin is not big enough to be a nose tackle in a 3 man front in the bigten, big12, sec..... he doesn't control 2 gaps against the run and that must happen.
3-3-5 would need a big space eating nt that controls the 2 inside gaps and demands a double team so the inside lber can flow to the ball without getting a lineman or 2 lineman coming free every single play.
Mike Martin should be playing de in a 3 man front....
Next yr dline should have Qwashington or Richard Ash at the nosetackle position....and could go 4 man front and still have a great rush package....
4-3 front sde vanbergen, dt mikemartin, nt qwash/Ash, rde roh/black
4-2 rush rde Roh, dt mike martin, nt qwash/Ash, Rde Black
You can also slide vanbergen to dt or nt on pass rush packages......
November 16th, 2010 at 12:35 AM ^
Mike Martin has been taking on double teams all year long and has been doing just fine. But I guess you are right. Oh wait, no you're not.
November 15th, 2010 at 6:55 PM ^
I still see the 3-3-5 as a variant of the 3-4 with a nickel back. I know the terminology and the position descriptions are slightly different, but they are still quite similar. The spread has rendered a lot of old defensive looks obsolete. There will be plenty of new schemes to combat the spread as it becomes even more popular. I am guessing most of these will also be met with a lot of resistance at first.
As long as they aren't playing five DB's against a full house backfield on third and short, I really don't mind. Maybe people would like it more if they went 4-2-5, but I am seeing that "5" as non-negotiable in this era, at least in the base set against spread offenses. When most teams have some variant of the spread formation, even those who just want to use "trips" out of a pro-set, four DB's isn't going to be enough.
I am guessing that as RR gets more personnel on defense and they gain more experience, we will see more mixes of traditional and modern defensive sets. I think the defense is in a position similar to that of the offense last year; they can't put in the full playbook because players are still learning.
November 15th, 2010 at 7:00 PM ^
All i know is that the 3-3-5 kills random people in NCAA Football 11. Ppl dont know what to do with it
November 15th, 2010 at 7:15 PM ^
I was thinking maybe he should just hand it off to the faster player Patterson. I did miss the Pianos so maybe that is why he was struggling.
November 15th, 2010 at 7:29 PM ^
It always comes down to the players at the position. If you have the best 11 players on the field who also play well together and buy into the scheme and execute you will have success. Michigan's defense played with more confidence Sat and executed better...albeit against Purdue.
You also cannot ever rule out momentum and rivalry games.....it always plays a huge role as well.