Lloyd Carr Appreciation Thread
I hope all of you appreciate now how DIFFICULT it is to win 8 to 10 games, win/compete for B1G championships, and go to a bowl game EVERY YEAR!
Coach Carr was pushed out by people (this site included) who thought any idiot off the street can do what Carr did year after year. After two coaches and too many embarrassing loses later, we all know the truth now.
Coaching football in NCAA is hard. Not very many people are good at it. It is difficult even when you have the enormous resources that this great university can provide.
I hope you remember that for the next coach and beyond.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:07 PM ^
These are two of the best coaches in football from the past decade. One is the best coach of this millenium. And since Carr couldn't compete with them he suddenly wasn't good enough.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:33 PM ^
OK, fine. Because they had good coaches, it shouldn't be an expectation to beat your top rival more than one try out of seven, or your opponent in three Rose Bowls out of four. That's before we get into the early-season losses that eliminated Michigan from the National Championship conversation annually by the end of September, or the annual head-scratcher against a lower-tier Big Ten opponent. If you want to excuse him for performance against Michigan's biggest rival and in bowl games, fine, but what of the inexplicable losses or narrow wins against double-digit underdogs? I made clear in my original post that I refer only to the latter half of his tenure. I'm not saying he wasn't a great coach, I just think he stuck around long after it ceased being that interesting to him.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:02 PM ^
Actually, I met Carr at a function in 2008. In addition to being very smart and the type of guy I would want representing the univeristy, he said something that I will always remember.
When I asked him what he thought about the state of the program as compared to OSU and some SEC schools, Carr said you can only achieve so much unless you are breaking some of the rules. He said that what Michigan was able to accomplish over the past couple of decades was the best an honest college athletic program could do. He then said that even though some people could be fooled by sweater vests, his statement was still accurate.
He said it in such a matter of fact fashion, I remember thinking that had to be the way it was. (This was years before all the crap at OSU came to light . . ..)
October 1st, 2014 at 4:08 PM ^
Thanks for sharing that. It's an interesting story.
For what it's worth, I've also met Carr - and know someone who knows him quite well - and everything I've seen and heard suggests that he's a terrific person. As I said above, I'm not up to speed on the conspiracy theories, so I'm not qualified to say they aren't true, but my sense is that if Carr did things that seem bad for Michigan he probably at least did them with his heart in the right place.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:22 PM ^
Totally agree with you. When I walked up to him and introduced myself, I told him that I was a graduate of one of the university's graduate programs. (I won't say which one, however, it is consistently in the top 10). In response, he looked me in the eye and said "congratulations." He seemed to really mean it and I could see why some 18-year old kid would want to play for him. Seriously, I did. Everything I have ever heard about him -- everything -- indicates that he is a fundamentally decent person who cares about Michigan. When people say the game passed him by, they are right. He didn't fit in with the "win at all costs" mentality of cheaters. I would rather have Carr's record and 1 national title every so often than be OSU, Alabama, etc. I really would.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:22 PM ^
Well whoop de freakin doo. How did other schools cheating cause him to lose games to Illinois in 1999, Purdue and Northwestern in 2000, Ohio State in 2001, Iowa in 2002, Iowa in 2003, Ohio State in 2004, Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Ohio State in 2005, and Appalachain State in 2007?
All teams that either recruited nowhere near the talent we had or games we had a lead in and pissed it away.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:31 PM ^
I offer no response other than to state that the unrealistic expectations of the program end up hurting -- not helping it. If we get pissed and run a coach out of town that drops a game he should have probably won every now and then, we will end up making frequent and unnecessary coaching changes. Each and every coaching change is just a shot in the dark and we can end up with guys like RR and Hoke.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:33 PM ^
Except it wasn't a game every now and then. It was a frequent thing.
And unrealistic expectations? Why should we have any lower expectations than OSU?
October 1st, 2014 at 4:40 PM ^
Because we attend an actual academic institution with high values and standards. We have a football program that is an important part of the university, Unlike OSU, the football program does not define us. That's why spanky.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:49 PM ^
Spare me the bullshit. If the football program didn't define us then there wouldn't have been 100s of people protesting on the president's doorstep yesterday.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:28 PM ^
I apprecieated Carr when he was the coach but his time has passed.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:33 PM ^
We would have gave Jim Tressel more of a fight. We just had lesser talent.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:54 PM ^
Not according to recruiting sites. We actually had higher ranked classes than OSU most years. The talent was just not developed.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:32 PM ^
I love Lloyd more than anyone, but he was not forced out. He wanted to retire. He also seriously lost interest in hiring decent coordinators and recruiting. His last few years were painful.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:32 PM ^
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October 1st, 2014 at 2:34 PM ^
I appreciate the 1997-2003 Lloyd Carr, but not the one after that.
I refuse to lower my standards because RichRod and Hoke have both manged to one-up Carr when it comes to shitty assistant hires. But there is still no bigger embarrassment than losing to Appalachian State.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:33 PM ^
My view of Carr changed dramatically with the revelations in that book. I don't need to rehash it here. I loved Lloyd in the beginning, but thumbs down from me now.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:53 PM ^
I always looked at Carr as a really nice guy who gave a lot of good service to U-M. In his later years, he seemed less good at his job in general, whether it was because of losing touch with the changes in football or starting to get bored. That would have been OK with me. But as you say, after reading the Three and Out book and following the various discussions on this blog during the RR years, I don't have a sanguine view of him anymore. I've always been bothered by the fact he has never refuted any of the stories, offered his version of the facts, or responded to any requests for interviews on the subject. His silence has spoken volumes, at least to me.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:01 PM ^
His silence has spoken volumes, at least to me.
And this is why guys like Gregg Henson can sling buckets of poo. Even when half of it is demonstrably false, people will believe the other half unless the victims dignify the shit-slinging with a response. In which case they'll probably believe it anyway, and you've stepped into the shit for no reason.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:22 PM ^
I do know some people that have talked to him about the book. Why he hasn't spoken out publicly about the book I don't know. But he has refuted claims in the book to those that have asked him about it. He hasn't read the book. He heard about some of the things that were being written about him and didn't want to give the book the time nor the day.
October 1st, 2014 at 6:23 PM ^
No one should take "Three and Out" as gospel. John U Bacon is a terrific guy and a hella of a writer, but he was embedded with the Rodriguez family for the entire three years and the book is far too slanted and sympathetic towards them.
I took everything he wrote about Carr with a shaker of salt because, as far as I know, Lloyd did not cooperate with Bacon or sit down for any interviews.
October 1st, 2014 at 8:04 PM ^
I think Bacon was not beholden to RichRod and his crew. I think he called it like he saw it, with no rose colored glasses either way.
October 2nd, 2014 at 8:47 AM ^
I don't think anyone here has suggested that Bacon didn't call it like he saw it.
Mon-L just pointed out that he saw it from his position embedded in the Rodriguez family. If he'd spent three years with Carr or Martin/Brandon he'd have written a different book.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:30 PM ^
I agree. The Lloyd card stunt (his face in the endzone) was the Tressel on the shoulders moment for me.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:34 PM ^
I FUCKING HATE THESE GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKING "APPRECIATION" THREADS WITH THE BURNING HOT FURY OF A THOUSAND SUNS.
AND WHILE WE'RE AT IT I HATE OPEN LETTERS TOO.
AND PARSNIPS.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:37 PM ^
you do love lemons though!
October 1st, 2014 at 2:39 PM ^
I think we can all agree - but why do you have to take this out on parsnips?!? HAVE YOU NO SOUL?????
October 1st, 2014 at 3:05 PM ^
October 1st, 2014 at 3:14 PM ^
Jesus I sure hope not and I dont think so (cause I really, really hate them) but if I did then I have blotted that out from memory entirely.
But if I did it would be sort of like what I've done in terms of remembering the the relative size of the first chick I banged in college. She was, as I recall, a rather stout woman.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:18 PM ^
You forgot spiders, FUCK SPIDERS!
October 1st, 2014 at 2:34 PM ^
I was taught that when you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all. And Being a proud Michigan Man... I always listen to my elders.
Have a nice day everyone.
October 1st, 2014 at 9:53 PM ^
October 1st, 2014 at 2:38 PM ^
We were too rough on Carr while he was coach, but then he was terrible to the program. He gave it right back. I'm searching for appreciation and not finding it.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:40 PM ^
And as soon as Lloyd comes out with a vote of confidence for Brady Hoke, he will be condemned.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:41 PM ^
the program is in the mess it is in right now. He got lazy in recruiting his last 2 plus years on the job. He stired the pot to make RR stint even more of a disaster than it needed to be. I blame him for not stepping up and helping with his replacement insted of crying and causing problems.
That being said my thought and prayers go out to his family and his granchild as they battle his illness.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:47 PM ^
You are an ass for blaming the current state of the program on Lloyd Carr.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:56 PM ^
of the things he did his first year out of being head coach and say that. He is a reason for it if you choose to believe it or not.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:05 PM ^
Do we have the facts to look at? Or do we have Rich Rodriguez's account of what went down, as told to John U. Bacon?
October 1st, 2014 at 6:28 PM ^
What does Lloyd Carr have to do with today? It was eight years ago. Move on, man.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:43 PM ^
October 1st, 2014 at 2:47 PM ^
Stop fighting facts: National Championship, Big Ten Championships, no NCAA sanctions, with conjecture.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:52 PM ^
October 1st, 2014 at 3:52 PM ^
If the AD department would have been prepared to let him retire when he wanted to then yes. He would have left a NC contending team for a new coach. That's on the AD, not LC.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:49 PM ^
October 1st, 2014 at 4:10 PM ^
Carr took over from the previous coach who had to leave because of an embarrasing scandal, right? He took over on a temporary basis, won the job and a few years -- not the next year -- he won a National Title. I think he left the program better than he found it since he wasn't forced to leave under a cloud of disgrace (i.e., drunken outbursts). He wanted to retire and that he stayed on a year too long to help the program is a positive . . .. not a negative. Seriously folks.
October 1st, 2014 at 8:01 PM ^
He was a good football coach. A good caretaker of the program. But we won only one Rose Bowl while he was here. In 13 years, we went to the Rose Bowl as B1G champion only three times. OSU became the premiere program in the B1G during his tenure. And if that's who you compare yourself against, he did not perform well (1-6 against Tressel). People should appreciate his achievements, but stop with all the legend talk.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:17 PM ^
How about you stop screaming NATIONAL TITLE BIG TEN TITLES HEISMEN WINNERZZZZZZZ every time someone tries to make a point that he wasn't the awesome coach you're making him out to be?
Got top ten recruiting classes every year. I and along with pretty much everyone else who followed college would fully expect Michigan to contend for national titles with that. Well...we didn't. And people started to wonder why Lloyd was underachieving every year because the best he could do was 9-3 with a Citrus Bowl win or 10-2 with a Sugar Bowl win but no big ten title that year. It was heard on sports talk shows all the time.
Meanwhile OSU under Tressel was winning the Big Ten nearly every year, winning 11 games six times, and WINNING BCS bowl games. Tressel: 5 BCS wins to Lloyd: 1 (2 if you count Rose Bowl in 97)
Do I need to remind everyone that OSU is our biggest rival? And they shit all over our accomplishments in the last 20 years? Why is that acceptable?
October 1st, 2014 at 4:42 PM ^
What was he, something like 19-8 vs top ten teams?
He WAS great coach. How he handled the transition is a different matter, but he did a great job at Michigan by every objective measure.