Interesting convo I had with a prominant Chicago HS basketball coach
So, I had the opportunity to speak with a Chicago HS basketball luminary in a casual situation earlier today. I won't drop his name at this point, but he coached some of Chicago's best talent over the past 30 years at a couple well known Chicago high schools. He apparently just retired this year. I asked some very pointed questions about basketball topics, specifically regarding college recruiting, and he (thankfully) did not hold back on giving me some very candid and real answers. Thought I would share with the board:
1. College bball recruiting is extremely dirty (duh!)
2. While he thinks the NCAA does their best to monitor this, he seems to believe that college coaches are much smarter and can "stay ahead" of the NCAA. He says there are very sophisticated ways to pay players and their families without suspicion.
3. Coach K - dirty as hell (I was kinda surprised by this)
4. Coach Cal - dirty as hell (duh!)
5. Coach Pitino - dirty as hell (duh!)
5. Izzo - sends his assitants to do his dirty work. He says he was offered money from Dwayne Stephens on several recent occasions for particular recruits (although I don't know if he actually accepted the money). He thinks that Izzo is not as bad as others though. Izzo has a lot of respect in Chicago and is not normally known for playing dirty. However, his people told him that Izzo's recent recruting success is no doubt from some "below the belt" tactics.
6. The Jabari Parker recruitment was surprising clean on a relative scale.
7. As for Michigan/JB - clean, very clean, but too clean. Most promimant Chicago HS coaches stay away from Michigan because Michigan won't be part of the "recruiting machine" in Chicago. They think JB is a good coach but teaches "white boy" basketball. He basically says Michigan/JB has no respect in Chicago anymore.
I mentioned I was a Michigan fan and talked some more about our program. He has tons of respect for us becasue he had lots of interaction with Michigan many years ago. Back in the 90s, Michigan was THE school for Chicago's best talent. He says we were not a clean program then, but he says that no one was and Michigan was no different than any other major program. He seems to think we have little to no chance with big time recruits in any major city without getting a little dirty.
He had some funny things to say about Amaker, but I'll save for later.
Anyway, thought I would share with the board. What are your thoughts? Would you be OK with getting a little dirty to get better recruits? Are you OK with being a super clean program now that can't consistent compete on the big stage?
December 28th, 2015 at 9:40 AM ^
But it doesn't lead to sanctions and penalties unless you self-immolate like we did with the Fab Five.
Do you seriously believe that the commissioner of the NCAA doesn't know why Ole Miss suddenly started getting the best recruiting classes in the country three years ago? Do you have any doubt at all?
December 28th, 2015 at 9:02 AM ^
December 28th, 2015 at 8:54 AM ^
I tend to agree with LSA. Was I bothered watching Juwan Howard drive around campus in a brand new Jeep Grand Cherokee? To answer this question, allow me to me put it this way, I was far more bothered after we lost to Duke and then UNC in back to back national championship games.
December 28th, 2015 at 9:02 AM ^
You seem like a pretty bottom line guy...
December 28th, 2015 at 9:49 AM ^
December 28th, 2015 at 2:07 PM ^
You seem to be suggesting we go down a Miami path - not quite as many violations nor as ethically challenged, but do what we need to do to get top recruits & just deny/don't cooperate if investigated. Essentially tell the NCAA to shove it - I take it that's what you meant when you said we "self immolated" following Webber, Traylor et al?
Then you said you didn't understand my sarcastic reply to the poster who said he didn't mind Juwan driving around campus in a new Jeep, only that we didn't win the title... I was pointing out the inherent risks in trying to "halfway" compete vs Pitino or Calipari. The risk is you get "dirty" but still don't win!
You said cash is ok but not hookers or abortions - those guys aren't gonna consult your ethics code before doing what they think they need to do to win. So what's our guarantee we get anything out of this lowering of our standards? Except lower standards...
I've said already we should find a way to above board disperse some of the monies earned by college athletics to the athletes. Not through bagmen, but "cleanly," "ethically," and legally. But until it is done, I'm not cool with jumping in the hot tub with those other coaches. That's just where I stand.
December 27th, 2015 at 11:36 PM ^
Good post. But with regard to recruiting Chicago and "white boy basketball." Who cares. He coaches fundamental basketball and it's a winning brand. We know he's not (or rarely) going to pursue the same player as Coach Cal. We'll get our players. Some will be white. We're going to keep winning. It's a fun program to follow. Who care where they come from.
December 27th, 2015 at 11:41 PM ^
December 28th, 2015 at 9:52 AM ^
It would be boring. I would rather he follow Coach Cal and his assistants around.
December 27th, 2015 at 11:46 PM ^
December 28th, 2015 at 12:40 AM ^
December 28th, 2015 at 12:02 AM ^
They think JB is a good coach but teaches "white boy" basketball. He basically says Michigan/JB has no respect in Chicago anymore.
Are these coaches aware that Michigan led the entire country in offensive efficiency in 2012-13 and 2013-14? And that last year it was Bo Ryan's Wisconsin, running a fairly similar offensive system, that was #1? Maybe they should study up on "white" basketball themselves.
December 28th, 2015 at 12:29 AM ^
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December 28th, 2015 at 9:33 AM ^
I don't think you get it.
December 28th, 2015 at 12:56 AM ^
...neither does recent big ten championships, and neither does a recent NCAA finals appearance. As we have seen, our recruiting did not get the bump we expected. And our program may be heading in the wrong direction. Unfortunately, it seems, recruiting wins and associated success on the court are sometimes the result of some "filth".
December 28th, 2015 at 3:40 AM ^
December 28th, 2015 at 10:05 AM ^
Duke was accused of playing that brand of basketball. If Coack K is dirty, that could explain how he's getting all of these guys to commit.
December 28th, 2015 at 12:36 AM ^
December 28th, 2015 at 1:37 AM ^
December 28th, 2015 at 12:39 AM ^
December 28th, 2015 at 12:43 AM ^
I'm curious as to where the OP talked to this coach. I have a guess as to who it is (and most posters would be upset that it's not an iner-city coach making these "white-boy ball" comments). I recently started coaching HS ball in the city and basketball in this city is a whole different monster. HS coaches are AAU coaches, Jordan Brand opens a new store on South State Street and brings in 5 HS teams for new gear, kids play games in tournaments in 3 or more states during the school year. It's nuts here.
Also, to other posters, keep in mind that "Chicago" also means "Chicagoland". The suburban and Catholic schools operate just the same as Simeon and Morgan Park.
December 28th, 2015 at 12:53 AM ^
on my wall represented by a dirty program. I don't want us to hire protitutes for recruits. I don't want us pimping out our female students (hostesses, lol okay). I don't want us giving out money.
I want the instutition that is connected to my school to be honerable, and not because of any fear of being caught. I believe that, in being connected to a university, our athletic programs should strive towards building character in young men and women. I think John Beilein does an excellent job of that.
If that means that were are not going to be able to consistently compete for national titles, so be it. If we are not able to consistently compete for B1G titles, so be it. I'm okay with the occasional run.
I'm sure coach K and Cal aren't guilt-ridden when they're cutting down the nets. Their consciouses are clear. But the instutitons they represented have degraded themselves if what we suspect is true.
If anything, I think that the University of Chicago and the Ivy League were much more prescient than I originally thought. Perhaps they understood how wild things would get and collectively decided not to participate?
December 28th, 2015 at 7:40 AM ^
I want my degree to represent something worthy of pride too.
You listed the following activities as examples of things that would tarnish your degree:
- Hiring prostitutes for recruits.
- Pimping out female students.
- Giving money to athletes.
Honest question - if I take away "they're all against the rules," can you identify any similarity between these three activities?
December 28th, 2015 at 10:08 AM ^
Maybe if I went to a football-only school like Alabama or a hoops-only school like Arizona, I'd feel that way. But we can hang our hat on our academics until the sun goes down. That's what my degree is all about.
December 28th, 2015 at 3:33 PM ^
This! I proudly displayed my graduate degree from UNC Chapel Hill on my office wall until the Butch Davis scandal broke. Only now am I starting to root for the team again. Integrity is #1 in my book.
January 21st, 2016 at 11:34 PM ^
This is only meant for basketball right?
December 28th, 2015 at 2:18 AM ^
Why aren't you popular with the Chicago Police Department?
December 28th, 2015 at 2:25 AM ^
WindyCityBlue won't name the coach because he's a cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartlkess, fat-ass, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey shit sparty troll.
Nice try sparty.
December 28th, 2015 at 2:38 AM ^
You called me "four-flushing"! That's going too far!
Btw. A couple of my posts are missing your "troll alert" gif. I suggest you commit to better diligence.
December 28th, 2015 at 9:23 AM ^
December 28th, 2015 at 9:30 AM ^
Recruits don't need money to realize that MSU has a better program than UM. Though the bitter irony of those who still celebrate the so-called "Fab Five" taking the high road on recruiting ethics is apparently lost in this thread.
December 28th, 2015 at 6:38 AM ^
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December 28th, 2015 at 6:54 AM ^
Seriously, what is going on with the board that after 6 pages of posts someone hasn't called out the spelling? You must've hit a nerve, WindyCityBlue...
Speaking of nerve, you're getting a lot of grief for suggesting the equivalent of what Brian suggested after the Bagman article came out. Personally, I'm on the side of keeping it clean. Not squeaky clean, mind you, but clean.
December 28th, 2015 at 11:32 AM ^
...I actually had a few other spelling errors that I caught and went back and corrected.
In the end, board talk is colloquial - tpyos and grammer mistakes are part and parsel. And with advent of #twittertawk and smart phones, people understand that its difficult to consistently spell things correctly. People don't seem to care anymore, except for you of course :)
December 28th, 2015 at 11:38 AM ^
I'm glad you posted this thread and I enjoyed reading it, but can you explain to me why it's difficult to spell things correctly on a consistent basis?
I learned how to spell in elementary school 30 years ago. The advent of the smartphone didn't erase my spelling abilities.
December 28th, 2015 at 1:01 PM ^
...there is no spell checker in the text box on Mgoblog to correct me.
I get the vast majority of words correct, but sometimes I make an honest mistake (like misplacing an "a" with an "e" in the word "prominent") or my typing abilities can't keep up. The media in which I typically write gives me spellchecking capabilities to catch those errors. I don't get that here.
I suspect I'm not alone.
December 28th, 2015 at 1:20 PM ^
The site should have a spellcheck feature for posts. There is one when you make a new thread IIRC.
December 28th, 2015 at 3:41 PM ^
I was more astounded that no one had called you out on the spelling as that's the first thing that usually happens by obsessive compulsive Michigan types; so more a commentary about the board (and your message) than anything else.
December 28th, 2015 at 7:21 AM ^
I wholeheartedly disagree with your claim that we can't compete on the big stage.
If being compared to Coach K, Coach Cal and Pitino in terms of recruiting conduct means getting into Chicago, consider me not interested.
December 28th, 2015 at 8:26 AM ^
Hard to imagine that the HS coaches and advisors like the OP's source are clean themselves. They serve as gatekeepers and wield influence in many cases. They are also the institutional memory -- they remember. His personal experience and knowledge of corruption likely stems from his own end of it (whether or not he himself actually partook), rather than direct involvement in cases where families are seeking money. My guess would be that a different sort of character handles that nitty gritty.
You want "respect" in Chicago? Pay these guys and buy influence. That's what he's really talking about here. Indeed, it almost feels like a pitch, one that is quite practiced. The OP is a fool if he thinks he's the first guy to get this little talk from this "luminary."
December 28th, 2015 at 9:12 AM ^
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December 28th, 2015 at 9:37 AM ^
This might be a decent argument if the B1G wasn't full of freshman and sophomore big men who are outperforming anybody on Michigan's roster:
Caleb Swanigan, Ethan Happ, Jordan Murphy, Thomas Bryant, Diamond Stone, Vince Edwards, Deyonte Davis, Isaac Haas, Keita Bates-Diop.
When you are a big man in year three, as Donnal is, and you look as lost as he does, time is running way short.
And then in the case of Ricky Doyle, he has plainly regressed. Its hard to have patience on a player when he is trending in the wrong direction.
Wagner has looked really good at times and DJ Wilson still has time to work out some major issues in his game, but having a season like this where you have no viable big men (and you can't point to departures as an excuse) is unacceptable. There is good reason to think its going to be a gaping hole next year as well.
Also, fun note: Ricky Doyle is leading the big men with 5.4ppg and 3.3rpg. Max Biefeldt is averaging 8.8/4.4 for Indiana (while shooting 64% from two and 54% from three).
December 28th, 2015 at 9:12 AM ^
Doesn't bring a program above reproach.
Michigan's basketball program brought in 13.6M in revenue. The coaching staff was paid 3.68M. The total cost of scholarships for the basketball team was roughly 750K.
The football program turned in 91M in revenue against 27M in expenses. They paid the coaching staff 8.5M, and the total cost of scholarships for a team of over 100 was 5M.
Those of you feeling good about yourselves because JB doesn't grease the wheels a bit need to get off your high horse. The entire system is based off of exploitation.
December 28th, 2015 at 9:32 AM ^
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