Informal poll: did this game change your opinion of Hoke?
I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of this board would have answered "yes" to the question is Brady Hoke the best coach for Michigan before this game, with various caveats and quibbles (Funk, Borges) aside.
I am interested to hear how the board would respond to that question now. I'll offer some options:
A- Yes he is, that game sucked and game management was poor, but we can move on.
B- He is provided he makes changes to offensive coaching after the season
C- My faith in Hoke was seriously shaken and I am no longer sure he is the best coach for M.
D- He is not the best coach for M. This game confirmed my fears.
So, if you want to play, please answer both with the letter that best captures your thought, and also is that a change from what you would have answered before?
To start, I will say B. And yes last night changed my mind.
October 13th, 2013 at 12:14 PM ^
Completely agree with this. I am stunned that anyone thinks puts responsibility for going into a shell in OT on the OC. That has to be a head coach decision. I love Hoke, but he did a crappy job of managing the game in OT last night. Let's learn from it and move forward.
As far as the Borges criticism goes for this game and in general, I think we need to look first at the head coach. Brady Hoke wants what is referred to around here as Manball. Whoever he hires as OC is going to have that directive. Guys, I haven't played or coached football since I played in high school nearly forty years ago, but I will say this: Manball is not going to work when the middle of your offensive line is getting destroyed every week. I defended RR to the death, but this is the legacy of recruiting three and four years ago. These freshmen and sophomores are going to be horses two years from now. But right now, they are freshmen and sophomores and they are the best we've got.
We have all, me as much as anyone, been expecting this to turn around more quickly than is reasonable. And in almost every way it has, except for one small thing. The offensive line is in many ways the most important unit on a football team. And it is also the one that takes the longest time to develop individual players. And Al Borges cannot change that.
I think Hoke has done a great job, but had a bad night. I think, and I realize I am in the minority around here, that Borges is a very good play caller. But his hands are going to largely be tied until we have kids who are big enough, strong enough and experienced enough to block.
End rant.
October 13th, 2013 at 12:30 PM ^
The excuses regarding the o-line don't hold water. Do we lack depth? Sure. But the fact that we can't send out two fifth year tackles along with three others from amongst a couple of third year guys and take-your-pick of highly touted second year o-linemen and get some push, ever, is an indication of a larger problem.
October 13th, 2013 at 1:49 PM ^
Regarding the O-line specifically, I think I fall somewhere in between these arguments. First, I think it should be noted and understood that the center of the line is young and inexperienced. They appear to be fairly physically blessed and show some great promise at times -- while also providing up sheer terror at others. I don't think we can or should expect this OL to be one of the best in the country -- the proverbial Alabama we so much enjoy comparing it to.
That being said, I think it is MORE than fair to be questioning the coaching of this position group. Also, to a lesser but still related degree I think it's appropriate to question Borges. When it appears that the OL is making no significant strides in learning and technique, I think it is more than appropriate to question Coach Funk. What is he doing in practice? What technique is he teaching? Yes, we have a young and inexperienced OL in the middle, but we are certainly not the only team in the country to ever be in that situation. I would even be satisfied - right now - if we saw moments of absolute brutality and domination by the inside guys, mixed with the frustrating and held-scratching "derp" moments of missed targets or incomlete technique. It doesn't even seem that we are able to see moments of greatness or potential with regards to their abilities. The problem, to me, is that it doesn't appear the OL is getting better each week.
October 13th, 2013 at 3:02 PM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 11:52 AM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 11:55 AM ^
Yeah - Borges has never shows he can recruit (I've never heard a recruit cite him as a reason for coming) and it looks like he can't coach well either. He's probably the change that needs to happen.
October 13th, 2013 at 12:45 PM ^
He doesn't even go on the recruiting trips.
October 13th, 2013 at 11:53 AM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 11:54 AM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 11:57 AM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 12:08 PM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 2:05 PM ^
What team has EVER not just taken three runs in the middle of the field after getting the ball off a turnover in OT? We have a kicker who made 16 consecutive field goals - there's no way you expect him to miss two chipshots in a row like that. Imagine we had gone for the endzone and Devin had thrown an interception. What would you have said then?
I agree the playcalling seemed bad during regulation and the two delay of game penalties were absolutely inexcusable. The punt that netted us < 15 yards was also mind-bogglingly stupid. But don't act like the problems in OT were all on the coaching staff. Our senior record-holding field goal kicker just choked hard.
October 13th, 2013 at 3:21 PM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 7:45 PM ^
I think the coaches had the absolute perfect strategy on the 33 yard FG miss. They moved the chains on, what, the 2nd OT possession (sorry, each OT possession is now scrambled in my mind and I don't want to watch the game again to remind myself). They centered the ball perfectly for a 33 yard FG attempt for a previously consistent PK who just broke the UM record for consecutive FG made. He missed. And that completely sucked. But I don't disagree with the coaching strategy one bit at that juncture. I'll take the 33 yard FG attempt to win the game any day.
October 13th, 2013 at 11:58 AM ^
I'm in the A group. Top to bottom, we have a really young team, but Borges needs to realize we're not moving the ball on the ground and gameplan for that.
October 13th, 2013 at 12:00 PM ^
conservative football under Carr so UM hired RR. Nobody was happy with RR, people wanted a return to Michigan smash-mouth football so UM went out and hired a Lloyd clone. Now people are complaining about the boring, conservative football with coach Hoke. Michigan got exactly what they wished for: a play not to lose mentality.
Get over it.
October 13th, 2013 at 2:09 PM ^
The only "play not to lose" decision the coaching staff really made was to not let Gibbons try the 52 with a minute left. As it happened, he got a chance at the same kick and missed it.
The overtime nonsense was simply one of the worst choke jobs by a high-quality kicker that we've ever seen.
October 13th, 2013 at 3:10 PM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 12:02 PM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 12:03 PM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 12:03 PM ^
I am so emotionally done with team 134, I don't care if they win or lose after last night. Maybe if they win, it will be a positive surprise.
October 13th, 2013 at 12:04 PM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 12:13 PM ^
You are usually very well thought and rational. If Borges and Funk must go please explain in more detail as I value your opinion. Surely not in mid season or immediately? What is it about Hoke you are fine with? Would you be better served to think on this some more?
October 13th, 2013 at 1:35 PM ^
fired their offensive line coach after only a couple of games, and they got SIGNIFICANTLY better the rest of the year after that move. The guys love Funk. Lewan said he was the one coach he would most like to hang out with in his most recent interview. That is cool and all, but if you want to get the most out of your players, you are going to have to push them to the point where they get a little ticked off at you, not think you would be great to hang around with.
I would Fire Funk now. Sends a message to Al and the rest of the "family". This is about performance first, buddy/buddy second. I think Hoke is "too nice a guy" to do what really needs to be done. This is maybe were Brandon steps in as the "bad guy" and helps Hoke here a little bit.
October 13th, 2013 at 3:50 PM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 4:41 PM ^
I'd say that a lot of coaches would look at the o-line and want to coach it. We're pulling in ridiculous talent every year with our recruiting. The O-line might be bad this year, but if we get the right coach there, we have the chance to have consistently great lines.
October 13th, 2013 at 12:07 PM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 12:08 PM ^
Meyer's doing it in year two, Saban had a championship in year three, Miles does it every year. We have been mediocre for a decade and that won't change anytime soon.
October 13th, 2013 at 12:17 PM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 12:09 PM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 12:09 PM ^
I get sick of my retarded state fan friends talk about brady not wearing a headset. I always discredit them for saying it. I defend him by saying it doesn't matter.
Well, I think Sparty may be right. At least this way Hoke has his finger on the pulse of the offense. Maybe someone upstairs wouldve tipped him off that the play clock was running out and he couldve done his job and called a timeout instead of taking a delay of game.
I will really think less of him if he doesn't do something about our Oline. We may need some new insight on how to coach offensive linemen. It sounds simple and dumb but maybe we need to practice different things. Create a new mentality. Smaller teams are able to execute bread and butter power plays better than out bigger, supposedly more talented players at michigan. I just don't get it. I understand being young. But you have to show growth. You have to show improvement. Whats our excuse going to be next year when we have two new tackles???? Anyone????
Theres always an excuse. Great coaches need to make teams transition. Great offensive coordinators shouldnt run the same stupid play over and over and over again without success. I'm sorry, but everyone on here that is saying you play to win....not to lose...they are right. Lay it all on the line. Go for it on fourth.Call a pass play in overtime. Every other school that plays michigan does it and IT WORKS ALL THE TIME. Sick and tired of coach speak. Of excuses. Hope this is a Come to Jesus moment for our team (probably not since we've played three out of the last four games in identicial fahsion). We have reached the tipping point. If we dont over-achieve from here on out, there are some big scary questions out there that need to be asked at the end of the season.
October 13th, 2013 at 12:18 PM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 12:57 PM ^
Quit being pc.
October 13th, 2013 at 4:23 PM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 12:11 PM ^
Hmmmm. Michigan lacked sufficient progress under RR. Michigan also seems to be lacking sufficient progress under Hoke. But Hoke will get waaaaaaay more time than RR did (deservedly so based on their comparative first 2 years).
Put me down for A- in that Hoke needs to show he is learning from his own mistakes, and no matter if he makes a coaching change or not, he needs to be able to alter potentially bad in-game decisions made by his coaching staff.
October 13th, 2013 at 12:13 PM ^
I'm in between B anc C. If these data points are being collected for analysis and I have to pick one, I guess that'd be a B, but that's misleading of how torn I am.
October 13th, 2013 at 12:15 PM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 12:43 PM ^
I don't think it's fair to speak of him "refusing" to part with Borges and Funk. He's been here 2.5 years and has won 75% of his games. There was no reason for him to make a change to his staff after 2011, obviously, and last year was certainly mitigated by the injury to Denard at QB. This is the first year where I think it might be plausible for him to consider a change, if things don't improve.
October 13th, 2013 at 1:33 PM ^
Agreed. Everyone was freaking out after the Iowa game in 2011 and we ended up with three great offensive performances to earn a birth in the Sugar Bowl. Its still early.
October 13th, 2013 at 12:15 PM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 12:17 PM ^
It will take 3 more years to build an offensive line.
That would be true if Schembechler were your coach.
October 13th, 2013 at 12:17 PM ^
A. He's undefeated at home, recuiting at a level we have never seen before, has won a BCS Bowl, and is 5-1 this season.
Yeah, we could have done things differently last night but Gibbons was money prior to last night. Should he assume his kicker is going to miss three field goals? Wouldn't you be upset if Gardner coughed up a turnover? It's easy to be an armchair coach and criticize in hindsight. We absolutely should have won that game, but I'm nowhere near a cliff when it comes to Brady Hoke or Al Borges.
I really don't know what to make of the O-Line though.
October 13th, 2013 at 12:18 PM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 12:18 PM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 12:34 PM ^
but not every player steps into a new starting role as a seasoned veteran. Our interior line is struggling and mainly due to lack of experience. Could it be coaching? Sure. Do we know for sure? Not really. I think the easiest way to tell if it's coaching is if they haven't progressed throughout the year. They showed progress against Minnesota (though it's Minnesota - but looked better than against much weaker opponents).
Halfway through the year we've had ups and downs. The second half we should have things ironed out and guys getting comfortable playing. This last half will be the true test to see what changes, if any, need to be made.
October 13th, 2013 at 12:45 PM ^
I find some comments on here funny about giving the coaches time considering this staff has been here as long as RR.RR went 15-22. Hoke is 24-8. Bit of a difference there. Hoke is also recruiting better, although his classes are still only underclassmen.
October 13th, 2013 at 8:19 PM ^
October 13th, 2013 at 12:18 PM ^
At this point Hoke is an icon of the university, a master recruiter, and a true Michigan Man... he's not going anywhere. Now, I would LOVE to scrap the entire offensive coaching staff and start over. There's got to be some OC out there who runs a pro-style offense but in a cohesive, intelligent way, that we can just throw a ton of money at. Honestly, go to some OC - Wisconsin's, or Stanfords, whatever - and say "we'll give you a raise and let you pick all of your own assistants (save Fred Jackson). I've disliked Borges for 3 years now but that was finally the nail in the coffin. He and Funk have GOT to go. Hoke is good at delegating to his assistants... now lets get him some good ones on offense, not just defense.