If you had to choose between beating your rivals or winning the Legends which would it be?
An earlier thread today about which of UM's top 3 rivals ND, OSU, MSU was most beatable prompted me to suggest that the new divisional setup might eventually change Michigan fans priorities about who you most love to beat, since only MSU is in the Legends division. After all, a loss to OSU doesn't affect winning the division as much as a loss within the division. And a loss the ND has no effect on winning the B1G.
I was surprised by the one reply I got, "Yes, we want to win our division. But it's arguable which would be better: winning our division but losing to these three schools, or not winning the division but beating these three. Honestly, I'd probably take the latter, assuming MSU doesn't win the division."
I know Big Ten rivalries are more important than in other conferences. Nebraska's biggest rivalry was with Oklahoma, it paled in comparison with UM-OSU. But it was built on the fact that the winner usually determined the Big 8 title, the Orange Bowl, and maybe a NC shot. As a B1G newcomer, I'm sure Nebraska fans will feel the same way, whoever consistently blocks our path in the Legends will become our biggest rival.
What do MGoBoard members think, faced with the hypothetical "beat our 3 top rivals or win the division/B1G title" ?
And a more real-world scenario: will winning divisional games change the importance of --well, at least ND or MSU???
UPDATED: Everybody good-naturedly wacked me for confusing Legends/Leaders in original post, still suffering mental block not liking the names.
Thanks for the responses, great board
It's been five seasons since we've won the B1G, seven since we've bested OSU, and three since Sparty has lost to us.
Realistically, we could win the Legends division over MSU (and Nebraska) via the conference-record tiebreaker, wherein a win against OSU would be doubly sweet B-) We could stop the two longest streaks and then DOMINATE State next year.
It's actually been seven years since we've won the Big Ten (2004), eight years since we last beat OSU (2003), and four since we last beat MSU (2007).
I liked the 5, 7, and 3 years better :(
But that's like saying it's been a year since we beat Notre Dame. It's technically true, but misleading.
I meant to say seven? But wrote five? #brainfart.
If we consistently beat our rivals, we most likely win the division. I can't see beating MSU, OSU, and ND and losing to Northwestern or Illinois. Nebraska, maybe.
Ah, the Sparty question:Is it ok to not be as good if you beat Michigan?
I think it would be quite the accomplishment to make the inaugural Big Ten Championship game considering where the program has been. (Would also be nice to add to the fact that Michigan won the first ever Big Ten basketball tournament as well). I think it would mean more to the program than if we beat Ohio State (I'm assuming that's who you meant). Plus, it probably means we beat Michigan State and Nebraska as well.
Winning the division to me. I'd rather be Big Ten champs and go to the Rose Bowl and lose to MSU/OSU than to beat them and lose to Nebraska, NU, Iowa, Minnesota and whatever other cross divisional opponent we play.
On top of that, OSU beating a strong Michigan team likely means they win their division and we get another crack at them with the Rose as the prize, so that would be a bit easier to swallow, IMO.
I would choose beating the rivals. It has been too damn long, especially for Ohio. After a few years of success against them, I might start to focus on winning the division more. Of course, I work and deal with tosu fans daily, so the losses have been especially bitter.
beat all three of are rivals. Stop the OSU streak and shut Sparty up. Only good things can come following that scenario.
I'm confused... why are we trying to win the Leaders division (aside from beating OSU)?
Would make much more sense for Michigan to try to win the Legends division, no?
UNLESS, he's being super-sneaky and suggesting that by winning the Leaders division, we've won the entire conference (as we would have already won the Legends).
Can't believe I didn't catch that! The funny thing is when I heard Michigan and OSU were in opposite divisions and the were named Leaders and Legends, I actually assumed we were in the Leaders. Think about it. We are the "LEADERS and Best", we LEAD the conference with 42 BT Titles. We LEAD the Big Ten(and nation) in both wins and win percentage, so everything about us says leaders, even though we have had some huge legends as well. On the other side, OSU has more Heisman winners(and the only 2-timer) in the Big Ten, and tied with Notre Dame for most in football. So I thought they would be in the Legends. That's just me though.
You were perhaps making the mistake of assuming there was rationality at work behind the selection of division names?
If you lose those three rivalry games, you probably won't win your division, because a three loss team at this level probably isn't THAT good. It could happen, but it probably won't. If you do, you probably won't win the Big Ten championship. If you do, you certainly won't go to the NC.
Every win matters for the sake of this or that. The reason rivalries matter is because we're emotionally invested in them. The reason we're invested in them isn't because a title is on the line (when was there ever a title on the line against litt brother?) it's because you hate the other guy. You hate him, you hate sharing the same earth as him, you hate breathing the same air as him.
It isn't about enlightened self-interest. If it was, we'd hate what's happening to OSU because we would want OSU to beat everyone but us. Some of us can think on that level. I can't. I love to see them fail, and even when it would behoove me to hope they win, because it makes the Big Ten look better...I just can't do it. I can't.
Expedience is a matter of the here and now. Vendettas last forever.
I would take the rivals this year--for Hoke's sake--and the division from then on in. Getting into that championship game will be a way to redeem some in-season poor play in years to come.
I would rather beat our three rivals. If we do that, we have a pretty good chance of winning our division because of our record and that means we are playing well enough to beat the majority of the Legends, IMO. Nebraska is really the only team in the Legends division that is giving me some doubt, but I think we will be able to beat the rest of the division, especially if we beat ND and MSU (two of the better teams that we play this year).
CRUSH YOUR ENEMIES. Conan knows all.
Thank you so much for reminding me of this scene.
I would rather beat the rivals than win the division but, as has been mentioned, the two are hardly mutually exclusive.
No question, beat my rivals. I hate OSU, MSU and ND. Beating them is always at the top of my list and even moreso now that we are struggling.
BEAT OSU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd rather win the Legends division. But that's just me.
I'd be very impressed if we won the Leaders division. That'd have to be an epic season.
I think its kinda like a year-to-year thing. Ultimately, its all about winning the Big Ten Championship. But it sucks to lose to your rivals and give them bragging rights for the year, or lets face it, decade. I live in Ohio, so I am sick of losing to tsio and having to listen to their fans. MSU fans are kinda hard to find down here fortunately. So I think this season I'd rather beat our rivals and get back some momentum. Especially with everything OSU has been through this year, we need to hit them while they are down. But eventually I would like to get back to winning Big Ten Championships, even if it means an occassional loss to our rivals. Besides, if we go 0-3 against our rivals, we'll have a tough time winning the Big Ten with 2 conference losses. But if we go 3-0 against them, then we have a realistic shot at winning at least our division.
Done and Done. Im so sick of the day counters and the jokes. 7-5 with wins over State, ND, and OSU would be fine by me (obviously i would like more, but beggers cant be choosers).
Anyone think the Tigers can take the AL East this year?
Well I think it'd be difficult since the Tigers arent there, but Leyland could surprise us
I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be a joke. The thread asks if we would rather win the LEADERS division or beat our rivals... we are in the LEGENDS division
Booom roasted!
As the OP somehow has Michigan hypothetically winning the "Leaders" rather than the division we're actually in - the "Legends".
Oh, and typing out those division names made me barf on my keyboard. Crap!
EDIT - MichiWolv beat me to the punch. Double crap!!
beat our rivals. it's been a long time since we've beaten all 3. we can win the west division some other year
I can't stand the thought of another loss to MSU. They really need to be squashed like bugs. I see them beating both MSU and TOSU but losing to Nebraska and having at least other loss. In other words, I see them beating the two rivals who need beating the most and not winning the division.
I'm good with that.
I would rather beat Notre Dame into the ground. Everything else comes second, God I hate that fucking school.
Remember when beating Ohio was winning the conference?
And it happened more often than not.
Hence my bewilderment for the last decade. Imo, we beat all three rivals we're more likely than not going to win the division.
Good question, sort of depends for me. If I had to choose beating one of our Big Ten rivals (Ohio/MSU, ND is independent of B10 title) versus B10 title, I would choose the Big Ten title.
If we were to beat both versus Big Ten title? Man, I think I'd have to go with beating Ohio and MSU.
We could still win the Big Ten title while losing to both, but the appeal of ending both streaks would be a huge monkey off our backs. Plus I'm tired of listening to Bruti and Sparties talking shit. We aren't expected to win the Big Ten title this season but if we did while still losing to Ohio and MSU, next year would have the added pressure of reigning Big Ten champs and even longer losing streaks.
Tough question...I sort of hate that when I break it down, I'd rather win two games than a Big Ten title.
On a regular basis, win the division. This year, beat the rivals. It's been too long since we beat OSU and MSU.
word for word what my response was going to be
However, if we are beating tsio, sparty, and the domers, we are probably also doing well in the Legends. I want to be winning against those three more often than not. 2/3 against ND, 3/4 against tsio, and 7/8 against msu.
Beat Ohio. Duh.
I was the one you quoted in the OP, and I stick by that. Especially for next year, it's better to beat OSU and MSU. Further down the road if we can make it back to prominence, then it obviously won't be enough to just beat them, so I'd wanna focus on the division, but for THIS YEAR, Hoke really really really has to beat OSU and MSU
your defense will be a lot better. Yes, same players, but HUGE upgrade in D- coach should make you a more balanced team except maybe for lousy special teams
If I had to chose it would be beating the rivals. Anytime we beat tsio is a winning season as far as I'm concerned
that the topic of this thread shouldn't make sense at all, and looks like a word or two is missing.
Damn you Big10
I thought that division winners were determined by conference record, not divisional record, i.e., cross-division games count just as much as intra-division games for winning the division.
In any case, it depends on the year. In a rebuilding year like this one, I would much rather we beat our rivals and not contend for the division title than exceed expectations by winning the division while still losing to our rivals. To be honest, I would rather we went 4-8 this year with wins against OSU, MSU, and ND (and a win against Nebraska for good measure) than 9-3 with losses to each of our main rivals even if we made the conference title game. It also depends on the rival and the recent history. I could tolerate a loss to ND since we've owned them lately, but another loss to OSU or MSU would be hard to swallow.
is still key, based on what I've seen in the Big XII. True, overall conference record is first, but unless you're undefeated in conference play, more often then not the next tiebreakers, head-to-head and divisional record, determines who wins out.
Losing to Iowa hurts more than losing to OSU or Wisconsin (let alone ND) if your goal is to play for the B1G title.
Beat OSU. Nobody seems to be from Colorado, and many of the transplants are from Big Ten country. Mention you're a Michigan alum and you invariably get a mention of the OSU game. If it's a Buckeye fan, the conversation gets very annoying to say the least. I also went to Oregon and found myself talking more Ducks that Wolverines last year eventhough I'm not a Duck fan at all. I feel dirty.
I don't care about MSU probably because I don't live in Michigan anymore and I don't have to deal with Sparty's. We beat ND a couple times recently so whatever.
After beating OSU, winning Leaders is 2nd. Seeing Hoke and Denard take the first B1G championship game would be so freakin' amazing I'm beside myself thinking about.
When you leave Michigan, you soon find out that all of the other schools think that Michigan is their rival!
My exchange from earlier this year:
Guy In Indiana gear, Seeing My Michigan Hat: "You guys are going DOWN."
Me: "Oh, that's right... we're playing you this weekend. Wait, that's THIS weekend, yes?"
GIIG,SMMH: [Sad George Michael/Arrested Development walk]