"Fire this coach!": A Michigan Basketball tradition
Michigan Daily
February 21, 1973-
According to Michigan Athletic Director Don Canham those South End Crisler Arena vocalists who have filled the air with shouts of "Orr must go" and variations on that theme, have done so in vain. Canham indicated to the Daily that Coach John Orr, much maligned for his cage squad's off again-on again performance will be on the bench leading the Wolverines next season.
"Orr will be back next season," Canham intoned. "I could not envision the season without him back."
***
In the past few weeks Orr has been under a good deal of criticism. His squad was expected by many to capture the Big Ten crown. However, the Wolverines have faltered at points during the Big Ten season and presently hold a 6-4 record.
During the defeat filled weeks many students and fans expressed more than mild displeasure with Orr's performance as coach.
The remainder of Johnny Orr's career-
| Season | Record | B1G | Place | Postseason |
| 1973-74 | 22-5 | 12-2 | T-1st | NCAA Elite Eight |
| 1974-75 | 19-8 | 12-6 | 2nd | NCAA Round of 32 |
| 1975-76 | 25-7 | 14-4 | 2nd | NCAA National Runner-Up |
| 1976-77 | 26-4 | 16-2 | 1st | NCAA Sweet Sixteen |
| 1977-78 | 16-11 | 11-7 | T-4th | |
| 1978-79 | 15-12 | 8-12 | 6th | |
| 1979-80 | 17-13 | 8-10 | T-6th | NIT Quarterfinals |
Michigan Daily
January 27, 1989-
Fans fired up to see Frieder flee
Crisler Arena crowds have been telling Bill Frieder to throw his trademark towel in some other town.
These fans, who proudly carry "Fire Frieder" and "We hate Bobby Knight, but at least he can coach" signs, have expanded their vocal chords recently, booing Frieder at every occasion. Monday, the crowd jeered Frieder louder than archnemesis Bob Knight.
Some campus-area apartments now have "Fire Frieder" signs hanging in the windows.
People were losing their minds over a coach having these results recently-
| Season | Record | B1G | Place | Postseason |
| 1984-85 | 26-4 | 16-2 | 1st | NCAA Round of 32 |
| 1985-86 | 28-5 | 14-4 | 1st | NCAA Round of 32 |
| 1986-87 | 20-12 | 10-8 | 5th | NCAA Round of 32 |
| 1987-88 | 26-8 | 13-5 | 2nd | NCAA Sweet Sixteen |
100-29 record the previous 4 years.
I know I wasn't around back then, and sure, the NCAA flameouts stand out. But fans back then didn't have to wait THAT much longer for a few long runs...
When people wanted Orr and Frieder gone, neither of them had any long run in the NCAA Tournament.
John Beilein already has a Final Four and two Elite Eights. And some people want him gone two years after them when the entire starting five on that Final Four team is playing in the NBA.
This is a case of two things.
1) People having the same expectations the Football program has and placing them on the shoulders of the Basketball program.
The Basketball program has a good history.
The Football program is arguably the top program in the sport all-time.
2) Know who you are. What good coach would want to come here if we fired one of the most respected men in the game 2-3 years after runs to the Elite Eight and Final Four? There were a lot of people flapping their gums in that 500+ comment threads, and none of them had realistic replacement suggestions.
This isn't Duke, Kansas or Kentucky.
February 8th, 2016 at 4:31 PM ^
You're wrong.
You're too young to understand what Michigan basketball used to be.
Just sit this one out, you're getting destroyed in this thread.
February 8th, 2016 at 4:49 PM ^
Roy Tarpley, Ed Martin, Tractor Traylor.
There's still considerable resistance in the community to going back to what Michigan basketball used to be, but who knows, your day may yet come.
February 8th, 2016 at 1:49 PM ^
February 8th, 2016 at 1:55 PM ^
Resources. UConn's AD isn't even close to Michigan and never will be. Obviously UConn has the bball pedigree thanks to Jim Calhoun (great coach and great cheater) and Geno Auriemma, but they'll never have the resources and fan base Michigan does.
February 8th, 2016 at 2:00 PM ^
Neither does Kansas.
February 8th, 2016 at 3:26 PM ^
What is your point?
February 8th, 2016 at 2:10 PM ^
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February 8th, 2016 at 1:26 PM ^
I've made it clear I'm not in the firing Beilein camp yet, but for God's sake if he wants to defend without fouling he needs to hire someone with expertise in the 2-3, maybe a Boehim accolyte. Their man to man is God awful.
February 8th, 2016 at 1:33 PM ^
February 8th, 2016 at 1:36 PM ^
February 8th, 2016 at 1:38 PM ^
...there is still a small minority of people who want to fire JB. The "fire JB" narrative is over-played and posts like this illustrate that.
Still, its OK to critique, which is what the majority of people are doing.
February 8th, 2016 at 1:40 PM ^
FWIW I was in the "Orr must go" camp in 1981. Frieder did 99% o fthe coaching AND recruiting by that time it was pretty damn clear he'd lost his fastball so to speak. Frieder went on to have some great teams (albiet not that hot in the NCAA's) so just cause it's a tradition doesnt make it wrong.
February 8th, 2016 at 2:51 PM ^
My first year at UM was 1971, and people were riled up about Orr even then. It wasn't too long after that that anti-Orr fans were standing on State St. and along Hoover with big "Dump Johnny Orr" signs during the pre- and post-game trek to and from Crisler.
February 8th, 2016 at 3:55 PM ^
February 8th, 2016 at 6:08 PM ^
That goes a long way in politics.
February 8th, 2016 at 4:45 PM ^
What's funny is the current situation is sort of a combination of the Orr/Frieder situations.
Orr didn't recruit, then he had a period where some nice players came in, then he didn't recruit again and lost the state to Magic Johnson. Like you said, Frieder was doing everything by that time and Orr moving on was the right thing to do.
I wasn't in the fire Frieder camp, but something was clearly wrong with the '89 team relative to the fantastic talent level on the team; Illinois ran them off the floor with a bunch of (very good) 6'6 guys. They didn't bang, didn't put a body on anyone, played very antiseptic basketball.
When Fisher took over you could see the difference within a couple of games; by the time they played North Carolina who had knocked them out the previous two years and was the only other team with UM's talent level, it was a completely different team, they wouldn't have come close to a title without the coaching change.
That doesn't mean fire Beilein, but the recruiting and defense has to get a lot better and I think people are just trying to assess how likely that is to happen.
February 8th, 2016 at 1:41 PM ^
I don't want to fire Beilein, but there is nothing in his entire career to suggest he is elite or even very good. He's just solid. That's why it took him 15 years to get a major conference offer and that's why he's only been to one Final Four. If you think he's the best Michigan will do, okay, but I also don't blame people for wanting more.
February 8th, 2016 at 2:03 PM ^
I don't blame people for wanting more either, but any coach that makes the Final Four = at least above solid.
February 8th, 2016 at 2:04 PM ^
Nothing suggests he's more than solid, really?
How about being respected among his peers? Being voted one of the best offensive coaches in the country? Fellow coaches rave about Beilein.
How aboug going to many different programs that have had no history of success and then laying a foundation of winning? Taking 4 different schools to the NCAA tournament? Winning everywhere he's been?
He doesn't have a spotless W/L record because he took a strange route to get where he is today. Turning around those types of programs doesn't happen overnight and it leaves you with some bad looking W/L records.
And then come on. "Solid" coaches don't win conference championships and a final four in a 3 year stretch.
I get that people are frustrated with the basketball team, but come on. Let's not act like Beilein can't coach.
February 8th, 2016 at 2:31 PM ^
Defense matters. Recruiting matters. Having legit post players matters.
February 8th, 2016 at 2:46 PM ^
Beilein has some flaws =/= Beilein can't coach
Beilein has done some great things at Michigan and this year's offense is still at #16 on kenpom. Fran McCaffery (of the first place Hawkeyes) called him "one of the greatest coaches of our generation."
The defense and recruiting have been frustrating, but knows what he's doing. The other coaches know that. Lots of smart people in basketball know that.
I'm not sure why this fanbase doesn't know that.
February 8th, 2016 at 3:29 PM ^
One thing I forgot to mention; wins also matter.
Sure, Beilein has done great things here. He really did save the program, but that doesn't give him an infinite pass. I'm betting you're pretty young...
February 8th, 2016 at 4:26 PM ^
Well I'm not young. I'm 64 years old and I vehemently disgree with everything you say about Belein. The only seniors on the team (and the team captains) are on the bench with injuries.
I see this as a blip. He won a freaking big ten championship with Novak and Douglas. He'll right the ship.
February 8th, 2016 at 7:00 PM ^
What exactly am I saying about Beilein, that you vehemently disagree with?
February 9th, 2016 at 11:44 AM ^
The only seniors on the team (and the team captains) are on the bench with injuries.
That is just how college basketball largely is these days. If you can't win without upperclassmen, you need to change.
...and by a number of measures, Michigan is one of the more experienced teams in college basketball this year.
From ESPN:
"To measure experience, I use a handy item I call possession-minutes. Basically it's the percentage of minutes that a player is on the floor, multiplied by the percentage of possessions he used last season (as seen at KenPom.com). I add those products up for each player on a given team from last season, and calculate what percentage of that total number is returning as possession-minutes (%RPMs) for this season. For 2015-16, the average major-conference team will return about 60 percent of its possession-minutes from last season.
#3. Michigan Wolverines"
Michigan was the 3rd most experienced team in the country (in terms of returning as possession-minutes) at 92%, and even with Caris out is well above the national average of ~60%.
February 9th, 2016 at 3:36 PM ^
You've forgotten about Spike Albrecht, who had the second-highest number of minutes played last season and was the fourth-leading scorer.
February 10th, 2016 at 7:56 AM ^
February 8th, 2016 at 3:25 PM ^
Funny, I just pulled up the old "Has Beilein passed Izzo" thread for laughs and you thought Beilein was a hall of famer "guaranteed" and you'd take him over Izzo.
http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/has-beilein-passed-izzo#comment-2396706
It is insane how much the opinion of this man has changed over 2 years.
February 8th, 2016 at 3:31 PM ^
It's funny how the W/L record over two seasons can have that effect. I have also said very good things about JB as recently as yesterday. You seem to see everything 100% black or white, unfortunately the world doesn't work that way.
February 8th, 2016 at 3:40 PM ^
Two seasons though.
TWO. One and a half really. With injury trouble! That's a horrible sample size to evaluate a coach.
Billy Donovan won back to back titles and then went to the NIT two years in a row. Did he suddenly become a bad coach during that stretch?
Changing an opinion of a coach that quickly is too reactionary.
February 8th, 2016 at 3:45 PM ^
Good thing I'm just a fan on a message board then, huh? Also a good thing that I've explicitely said on multiple occasions over the past 24 hours that I don't think JB should be fired. Nuance is a real thing in this world, the sooner you recognize and accept that, the better.
I just noticed your sig line. No offense intended, but you really don't have the perspective to lecture me on my judgement.
February 8th, 2016 at 4:22 PM ^
I am young, you caught me.
I'm not trying to lecture you (if it came off that way, it was unintended).
I get that wins matter, but I believe Beilein is a very good coach (and one that is great for Michigan) and I don't think the last 2 years are a strong enough sample size to make me change my opinion. That's my analysis in a nutshell.
The blog seems to disagree, whether it be my age or arguments (or both). It happens.
I am sorry if the blog did not enjoy my portion of the discussion. It has in the past, but that's neither here nor there. I will just move on with my day.
February 8th, 2016 at 4:55 PM ^
"Lecturing" was a poor choice of words on my part. And I don't think being young (I wasn't using it as an invictive) matters, with the exception of lacking some perspective. I appreciate your reply.
February 8th, 2016 at 3:49 PM ^
February 8th, 2016 at 4:00 PM ^
It's just an example to show other coaches have had periods of slumps after periods of success and that a dramatic shift of opinion in their abilities is not wise.
February 8th, 2016 at 3:41 PM ^
February 8th, 2016 at 4:16 PM ^
it changed just as much over three weeks, in 2013. B1G tourney week, people here were saying Michigan could never be a championship-calibre program with Beilein in charge. He couldn't recruit, the team was soft like their coach, the defense sucked, it wasn't possible to win without quality big men.
February 8th, 2016 at 3:04 PM ^
February 8th, 2016 at 3:16 PM ^
Yes I did. Because I trust coaches more than I trust mgoblog posters to know what coaching talent is.
You can make whatever analysis you want, but I'm gonna trust the opinions and analysis over other coaches over yours and any other poster's. I think they might know a thing or two more about basketball.
And you completely ignored my argument about why his record is the way it is. Your record is gonna look like that when turning programs around. It takes time. There's more to coaching evaluation than W/L.
February 8th, 2016 at 3:35 PM ^
If this was the case, the high praise around coaching circles for RR would've meant he should have retired here.
Brady Hoke also got a lot of praise. Coaches don't make the employment decisions around here, fans do with their ticket sales.
You miss the tourney 2 years in a row at Michigan, you have to answer the tough questions.
February 8th, 2016 at 3:35 PM ^
RR failed and was fired because he was a bad fit. Beilein is a good fit and has had success, so I don't see comparison there. Respect is just a factor I believe should be included in evaluation (akin to scouting in baseball).
And if missing the tourney 2 years in a row is such a crime, why did Tommy Amaker get 6 years?
February 8th, 2016 at 3:46 PM ^
You're out of your element, and this comment shows that 100%. I'm not even responding with any substance, because you'll find some other juvenile argument to come back with, and I have things to do...
February 8th, 2016 at 3:48 PM ^
February 9th, 2016 at 11:49 AM ^
When other coaches commend JB on "coaching" they're talking about the "on the court" basketball part of coaching, and mostly about offense.
...I haven't heard a lot of coaches going on about JB's defensive coaching chops.
...and as it currently stands, the NUMBER ONE most important skill in college basketball coaching is recruiting. You're, in most cases, better off with a horrible "coach" who is a great recruiter than a great "coach" that can't recruit.
February 8th, 2016 at 3:40 PM ^
February 8th, 2016 at 5:34 PM ^
Only 12 current coaches have been to more Final Fours than Coach B. 14 have been there once which means only 27 current coaches have even been to the Final Four. Out of 351. Some of you underestimate the difficulty of sustained basketball success. Some of you have set the bar too high. And to date, other than Marshall and Miller, no one has named a better option, and Marshall has already turned down more money to coach at a bigger program for Wichita State. Basketball isn't football and basketball has been sanctioned already which further limits a program that already has to go head to head with Tom Izzo. I'd rather back a guy who's proven it before than constantly bitch with no good solutions.
February 8th, 2016 at 1:57 PM ^
there has to be some middle group for people who A) do not want JB fired and B) question the health of the program. I am one of them and my biggest gripe is that after all that success with the NC game and final 4 apperance, etc the recruiting never seemed to take off. That always struck me as a bit ususual.
Maybe it does just come down to paying kids vs. not paying them... sucks that this is where NCAABB is.
February 8th, 2016 at 3:32 PM ^
Of course there is. I'm right there with you.
February 8th, 2016 at 1:58 PM ^
Basketball is just a weird sport. It's not like other sports where talent is enough to win games. Look at Kentucky and Duke right now. There are so many factors to consider: team chemistry, team mentality, school. family, life, etc... it's so hard to determine how good the team will be on any given night. Coaching will only take you so far, but ultimately it's up to the players and how they're feeling and their mental state going into a game. From here on out this team has to play like there is literally nothing to lose, BECAUSE THERE ISN'T. We're not winning a Big Ten Championship. It's just not going to happen. So just play loose and HAVE FUN!
February 8th, 2016 at 2:19 PM ^
Let's look at the coaches that have been to the Final Four:
Mike Krzyzewski- 12
One of the best coaches to ever coach, some consider him to be dirty.
Tom Izzo- 7
Rick Pitino- 7
Roy Williams- 7
2 of these three are dirty, one is extremely dirty. Izzo is a great coach that gains the respect of almost everybody
Jim Boeheim- 4
John Calipari- 4
Slimy slimy slime slime
Ben Howland- 3
Jerkface
Larry Brown- 2
Bob Huggins- 2
Thad Matta- 2
Bo Ryan- 2
Bill Self- 2
3 dirty coaches and 2 extremely good coaches in Ryan and Matta
Rick Barnes- 1
John Brady- 1
Tom Crean- 1
Mike Davis- 1
Steve Fisher- 1 (3)
Lon Kruger- 1
Jim Larranaga- 1
Gregg Marshall- 1
Kevin Ollie- 1
Kelvin Sampson- 1
Shaka Smart- 1
Tubby Smith- 1
John Thompson- 1
Bruce Weber- 1
Jay Wright- 1
So out of these guys who would you take at all, let alone over John Beilein?
I guess I would be ok with Lon Kruger (runs zero offense ton of Iso), Jim Larranaga (has been good at Miami, had one cinderella year), Kevin Ollie (maybe a little dirty), Jay Wright.