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|15 weeks 6 days ago||We weren't jumping up and||
We weren't jumping up and down when a JP Oosterbaan or Steve Stoyko signed back in the day, if they were outside of the Top 100 we knew they probably weren't going to contribute much for the first couple of years, if ever.
We still know that, right?
(I feel old now...sorry)
|16 weeks 12 hours ago||Joubert was already a legend||
Joubert was already a legend as a HS Junior, everyone was emulating him on the playground; by the end of his senior year people were already starting to doubt how good he would become, even though he was still a Top-10 player...he was skilled he just didn't have enough athleticism once he started adding some bulk so to speak.
|16 weeks 3 days ago||Seems like a great pick for||
Seems like a great pick for the 4th round, big and violent with 4.5 speed. I like what Quinn is doing so far...
|22 weeks 4 days ago||Take that back!||
Take that back!
|22 weeks 6 days ago||I would think that if we||
I would think that if we uncoupled what the ceiling of the program is from "fire Beilein" then we would probably get a more optimistic view of the future.
I find it hard to believe at this point that Michigan wouldn't go after a premier coach who could also recruit at the highest level while staying clean in doing so. Personally, I think if that were to happen we'd then see that we could consistently pull Top 50 players, albeit maybe not at a Kentucky or Duke level and we would then see the current results as less than ideal.
|24 weeks 5 hours ago||The Beach Boys--Pet||
The Beach Boys--Pet Sounds
The Pretty Things--S.F. Sorrow
Pink Floyd--The Wall
|24 weeks 2 days ago||The problem is that when you||
The problem is that when you go a notch deeper you realize that he recruited a 67,148,179,218 class where they all signed early, leaving no room to get in on a Top 50 player later on; and although we obviously all hope they wind up being great players, that really shouldn't be accepted at Michigan.
The other problem is that we collectively seem to have a hard time quantifying just what this "dirty" recruiting atmosphere means when it comes to our recruiting expectations; we have 3 Top 50 players now, we were in on Brown and Battle, what level of player should we expect Michigan to be able to get without paying?
Indiana, Purdue and Marquette as examples all have Top 20 players, do we think they're all cheating? Or are those players exceptions? And if they are, shouldn't we also be able to go after certain players at that level? I'm not sure how well understood this narrative has been--if we can get say, 20-30% of the Top 50 without paying, we should certainly be trying to do that each year.
|28 weeks 1 day ago||What's funny is the current||
What's funny is the current situation is sort of a combination of the Orr/Frieder situations.
Orr didn't recruit, then he had a period where some nice players came in, then he didn't recruit again and lost the state to Magic Johnson. Like you said, Frieder was doing everything by that time and Orr moving on was the right thing to do.
I wasn't in the fire Frieder camp, but something was clearly wrong with the '89 team relative to the fantastic talent level on the team; Illinois ran them off the floor with a bunch of (very good) 6'6 guys. They didn't bang, didn't put a body on anyone, played very antiseptic basketball.
When Fisher took over you could see the difference within a couple of games; by the time they played North Carolina who had knocked them out the previous two years and was the only other team with UM's talent level, it was a completely different team, they wouldn't have come close to a title without the coaching change.
That doesn't mean fire Beilein, but the recruiting and defense has to get a lot better and I think people are just trying to assess how likely that is to happen.
|28 weeks 3 days ago||I agree, it's dirty. But is||
I agree, it's dirty. But is that why a team that has shown they can pull Top 50 players is being outrecruited by Harvard?
|28 weeks 3 days ago||Well why do you think the two||
Well why do you think the two sports are that different, other than recent results? They're both dirty... I can tell you with no research at all that between 1982 and 1987 UM signed 12 Top 50 players, and no they were not all on the take. Maybe I overestimated Stauskas' ranking but the point remains, in 2014 we had 4 Top 50 players on the team, so it can be done.
So when he suggests that maybe an all early signing class where 3 of the 4 are well outside the top 100 (not disparaging, hope they all wind up being great players) might not be solely because we can't get anyone higher, but instead may be a case of choosing not to try, what exactly is wrong with that?
|28 weeks 3 days ago||We just watched Harbaugh||
We just watched Harbaugh earlier this week scratch and claw to the last minute to sign every top player he could.
The BB team, a team that signed a number of top players four years ago, this year signed a 4 man class, all early signing period, 3 of which are well outside the Top 100. Because of course now as opposed to four years ago, it can't be done. Is that a reasonable conclusion?
I think his conclusion might have more substance, or at the very least a notion they seem to have that you can unearth a Burke or Caris at will instead of going for the top players.
|28 weeks 5 days ago||I kinda think Hackett is||
I kinda think Hackett is being his advocate here, Rashan seemed to be under significant stress yesterday and its possible based on rumors elsewhere that he had to go against family members to make this choice, which would be a horrible position to be put into. Maybe he had Rashan's blessing in saying something?
|29 weeks 16 hours ago||I walked around in the Blair||
I walked around in the Blair Witch woods with a Michigan hat on once, didn't die or anything...
|29 weeks 6 days ago||That perception may be due to||
That perception may be due to most of his biggest fights coming after he was 30 when he needed the somewhat unfortunate skill of being able to take punishment; he was fighting some of the best fighters of all time at that point too.
We didn't get to see Ali from '67-'69 when he would have been at his peak. I personally wouldn't regard him as overrated at all, he just didn't fight his best competition in the mid sixties when he was almost impossible to hit and could hit anyone from anywhere.
|30 weeks 8 hours ago||In '84 I would buy some||
In '84 I would buy some random Heavy Metal cassette every week and at some point stumbled onto Ride The Lightning and the song I couldn't get enough of was Creeping Death; so one night I gave it to a friend driving a car full of fellow teenage Heavy Metal afficianados to check out and they all HATED it, so much so that the driver ejected the tape and tried to throw it out the window but I snatched it out of his hand.
3 years later, everyone was listening to it.
|30 weeks 20 hours ago||I think the problem is that||
I think the problem is that it is pretty clear at this point that what they are doing can be improved upon, either by communicating better or a bit earlier, or by making sure the offers are non-committable.
Their logic may not be simply a matter of offering lower rated players because they didn't know if they would be in on higher rated guys later; it could also be that they are trying to get in on some diamonds-in-the-rough before they blow up and are willing to cut bait if they don't.
I'm personally alright with that as long as it is framed honestly with the recruit and I struggle to understand why that can't happen, and if it can why justify it? It just doesn't seem necessary to have to do this if we can all see how it can be improved upon and still recruit at the highest level.
|30 weeks 21 hours ago||Yep, I think we assume he's||
Yep, I think we assume he's solely a Plan B kid in case UM isn't in the running for Top 100 players at this point; but there's always the possibility that Weaver blows up during his senior season and becomes a high 4 star or something, and if so this would all be different right now. That isn't to agree with it, but it could be part of the reasoning.
|30 weeks 4 days ago||It kind of seems like||
It kind of seems like gamesmanship; like he was trying to not lose his scholarship and resisting any notion that he still had to earn it. It could be that he knew he was in trouble if he had to prove his worth and finagled a way not to, and it backfired on him.
Harbaugh won't take a kid that does that just on principle, and shouldn't if its in fact the case. People can say its bad optics, but it could wind up being appealing to the most competitive of recruits, who are the ones he wants anyways.
|30 weeks 6 days ago||Defintely would hope they||
Defintely would hope they would have communicated this to him a couple of months ago, but I don't really understand what the point is of having a formal offer before the end of their senior season to begin with.
First because of exactly what seems to be the case here; that the team doesn't really know how good a player is going to become until their high school career is over relative to their competition; and secondly because in Harbaugh's case he doesn't have any idea what caliber of player they are going to have access to depending on how his first season with the team goes.
It just seems to set the team up for accepting players they don't really want; or sets the player up to be betrayed to allow formal offers to go out before, say, December or so. Maybe there is a good reason and I just don't know what it is.
|31 weeks 3 days ago||He did do a nice job with||
He did do a nice job with Charles Jefferson.
|33 weeks 5 days ago||ESPN Que chupar un copo de||
ESPN Que chupar un copo de maíz
|35 weeks 4 days ago||You're right about the||
You're right about the competition in the Catholic league, but Thiyo Lukusa in particular was regarded as one of the top OL in Michigan before he transferred out of Traverse City.
|36 weeks 6 days ago||Well I had a friend on the||
Well I had a friend on the team back then and I didn't see his life change any until he got NBA dollars; but because we don't know how far back this all went it sort of illustrates a problem in which we think there has to be some sort of voodoo attached to getting a top high school player. Frieder was always known as a manic recruiter back to his being an assistant.
I mean without casting aspersions on anyone's future prospects I don't think we signed an all early signing 69,140,180, 214 class because we're not paying people and everyone else is. The 2012 class shows what can be done, and I would certainly assume that was clean.
|36 weeks 6 days ago||Well they didn't have to;||
Well they didn't have to; Magic 2 years, Isiah 2 years, etc...but if Michigan's players stayed longer back then so did the competition's.
Indiana had a talented veteran team in '86 when Bobby Knight said basically that no one could deal with Michigan when they were "on" and he wished he had their backups or even their redshirts.
|36 weeks 6 days ago||Yes, as said in the deleted||
Yes, as said in the deleted thread last night, Johnny Orr is the closest comparison to what is happening now. He led Michigan to 2 elite 8's and a National runner up in 4 years, and then his record tailed off for 3 seasons when his recruiting tailed off.
But I think its also a bit unfair to categorize those who are wishing to correct the narrative as to what Michigan is capable of as a program, to automatically advocating that Beilein should go.
What Michigan did in the eighties, could absolutely be done now. Frieder wasn't a great bench coach, certainly not the offensive mastermind Beilein is, but look at who he brought in:
1982-Richard Rellford (low 20's) 3 other Top 50 players and Roy frickin' Tarpley
1983-Antoine Joubert (5)
1984-Gary Grant (8)
1985-Glen Rice (7)
1986-Terry Mills (2), Rumeal Robinson (10)
1987-Sean Higgins (11)
That doesn't include Garde Thompson, Loy Vaught, Mike Griffin, Mark Hughes, etc... all top 100.
Those are national rankings, mostly from Bob Gibbons, but now Michigan can't do that? Why not? That doesn't mean Beilein should go, but to say Michigan can't do now what they did do then doesn't make any sense; its simply showing what the Michigan program is in fact capable of, which was a national championship caliber team year in year out from '84-'90.
|37 weeks 7 hours ago||There's actually quite a bit||
There's actually quite a bit of parallel between where Michigan is now and where they were during the last years of Johnny Orr, and if you remember back to that period it was the recruiting that tailed off after the great teams of '76-'77 just like it seems to have now.
I think you're selling Michigan short also in saying we aren't Duke. Duke's re-ascension mirrored Michigan's under Frieder, both getting huge classes in '82 and continuing to stockpile talent after that. Krzyzewski is a better bench coach than Frieder obviously and so he kept building that program but there really isn't any reason at all Michigan can't be a blue blood, their recruiting in the 80's was above everyone in the country except North Carolina, I think the scandal and the 2000's jaded a lot of people's minds on what Michigan is capable of as a program.
|37 weeks 4 days ago||Mayday. Fell off the couch||
Mayday. Fell off the couch laughing, literally...
|37 weeks 5 days ago||This is exactly right; its||
This is exactly right; its the equivalent of Bo's DC leaving in 1969 while interviewing before the OSU game and then taking coaches and recruits with him, albeit hypothetically at this point. Would history view that fondly?
|37 weeks 6 days ago||I think you have to go back||
I think you have to go back to Bo's logic when he refused to let Frieder coach in the NCAA's in '89; you're either for Michigan or you're not. So when we see 42 points by OSU, possibly telling Dontavious Jackson he isn't going anywhere when in fact he is, the potential fallout with the New Jersey kids if Partridge leaves, we're seeing a negative impact for the team we're rooting for; no one is against Durkin or Partridge (or whoever else) upward mobility, but we are reacting to what is or could be happening to MICHIGAN here, and its not nothing.
Coaches who signed on to restore UM to greatness jumping ship less than one year in will absolutely get a response, and should.
|37 weeks 6 days ago||Not only him but the team as||
Not only him but the team as well.