DG starting next season would be massive mistake
I know the season is over and everyone is looking at recruiting for answers as what was done after last season. There has been talk of Gardner coming in and starting next year. I know RR told him he would compete for the job but he has as much chance to start as Sheridan did this year.
By the time next season comes around Tate would have about 20-21 months into the system along with a rapport with the WRs/RBs. You want to throw a true freshman at QB because he's 4 inches taller and a bit faster. Pure athletic ability doesn't equal wins (i.e. Terrelle Pryor, one of the most gifted athletes in all of college football). To win you need to have a big set of different plays that you can execute well which, praise Jebus, we finally have a returning QB that we can use to expand the playbook.
I know thoughts have been expressed about RR pulling out all the stops in 2010 to ensure his job, but if he burns a redshirt on one of our biggest recruits and hinders future Michigan seasons to save himself then he's too selfish to be Michigan's head coach. So please folks, look to the future and not just immediate gratification.
November 24th, 2009 at 12:19 AM ^
I don't think anybody expects him to start
November 24th, 2009 at 12:19 AM ^
DG may very well turn out to be a fabulous QB, but with the low frequency which he throws the ball in HS it will take awhile for him to learn how to read college defenses. Luckily, UM has the luxury of letting him learn at practice while Tate continues to improve.
November 24th, 2009 at 12:19 AM ^
Talk of Dev starting is about as annoying as the Coach Rod getting fired rumors. It's all just to make news. Dev is raw and will likely be red-shirted. Tate is still our savior, at least for next year.
November 24th, 2009 at 7:56 AM ^
is to ignore the reality of the situation. It may very well be that D. Gardner has no business being close to the field, however, it may be the freshman qb's are very capable of leading teams to very good seasons. Henne and Pryor are two examples are freshman QB-BCS game, and unless I am mistaken, neither enrolled early. It is true that true freshman QB's often struggle. It is also true that tales of their struggles are a little exagerated in Michigan country right now to soften the blow of some significant and alarming struggles that Tate in particular had during his freshman campaign.
While I think it is certainly too early to make any declarations regarding Gardner's role for next year, I have no doubt that Rodriguez was sincere when he said Tate is not guaranteed to start next year. Tate branded himself early and was afforded much good will, but there are not enough fingers on your hands to count the number of times that Rich Rod had to work hard to not spontaneously combust after a Forcier error. Throw them all out there in August and may the best man win, but I don't think that Rodriguez should use a red-shirt on Gardner just because he is a freshman and Tate started this year.
November 24th, 2009 at 10:33 AM ^
Henne and Pryor QB's in less intensive systems; the learning curve in the option read is a tad higher. This results in less use of the playbook, which led to a frustrating trend; opposing defenses able to adjust to our offense at halftime while Tate had essentially used up all his bullets. If Devin starts next year, this trend will continue. No, Tate is the best choice hands down; he will have a solid grasp of the playbook while devin might have a grasp on pages one and two. This doesn't even take into account the experience of one year of college ball will have on Tate. I'm sure Devin will get an opportunity to show what he can do, but even Denard is going to have a better grasp at the offense then him. I say go with Tate/Denard for one more year and let Devin absorb what he can during his red-shirt year.
November 24th, 2009 at 12:20 AM ^
Next season is a long ways away. Tate could regress for all we know. If DG gives this team the best chance to win, start him.
November 24th, 2009 at 12:43 AM ^
Tate could regress? What makes you think he will regress besides blind hope that DG is the real savior of the program as a true freshman? He made freshman mistakes but also showed flashes of brilliance. This shit of "well he could regress" is getting old. Players usually get better and I don't see why Tate would be an exception.
November 24th, 2009 at 1:06 AM ^
I think you're missing the point. I'm with you, I think there's really no doubt he'll get better, but we don't what'll happen these next 9 months? Like I said, if DG gives us the best chance to win, put him in. The OP is stating putting DG in would be a mistake, but it wouldn't be if he's the best QB (doubt it happens)
November 24th, 2009 at 9:39 AM ^
I'm going to give birth to Tate's male child (who will then be trained from the crib to be the next Brandon Graham) unless someone already beat me to it.
November 24th, 2009 at 6:56 AM ^
Yeah When I play College football 09 my players overall ratings never go down.... They go up. Just like Tate's will next year.
November 24th, 2009 at 8:24 AM ^
Tate could regress?
Could
What makes you think he will regress?
Will
You changed what the original poster said a bit, didn't you?
Players sometime regress. One could argue that Tate regressed from the beginning of the year. I certainly hope and expect that Tate will improve next year, but there was nothing wrong with the original poster recognizing that his improvement isn't a sure thing, and it would be good to have a backup plan.
November 24th, 2009 at 12:20 AM ^
I don't think anyone really thinks he is going to start. He doesn't appear, at this juncture, to be enrolling early, and RR saying he would compete for the job is something probably every coach tells every recruit and their mother. I wouldn't worry too much. Tate will be at the helm next year, a more seasoned, wily, less turnover prone (hope!) veteran.
November 24th, 2009 at 12:36 AM ^
That alone could lower six or so fumbles from Tate over the course of the year. (~One every two games.) Some really low-hanging fruit.
November 24th, 2009 at 12:21 AM ^
I think that Gardner deserves a shot. There's no true guarantee that Tate will take the step forward we expect next year. Meanwhile, Gardner definitely has the athletic ability to play the position well and if he's a better option than Tate, then he should play.
To be absolutely clear, I am giving Tate an 85% chance of starting, Robinson a 14% chance of starting, and Gardner a 1% chance of starting. Ignoring the fumbles, Forcier played as well as you can expect from a true freshman. Whatever claims/myths surround Forcier and the idea that he doesn't get nervous, it is by no means ideal to have a freshman QB start against Ohio State and turnovers in that situation are forgivable, although to be fair, five is a cause for concern.
November 24th, 2009 at 12:26 AM ^
I agree on that, but...
"he [gardner] has as much chance to start as Sheridan did this year."
This statement seems very ludicrous. Gardner would start over sheridan on physical ability alone.
November 24th, 2009 at 12:47 AM ^
While Gardner would almost certainly start over Sheridan, I think the comparison here is that a freshman Gardner has as much a chance to start over a sophomore Tate Forcier/Denard Robinson as a RS junior Nick Sheridan had a chance to start over a freshman Tate Forcier/Denard Robinson. Both possibilities were highly remote.
November 24th, 2009 at 12:27 AM ^
Starting perhaps, but I think there is a decent chance Gardener finishes the season next year. He can do things, like the read-option, that Forcier cannot.
November 24th, 2009 at 9:00 AM ^
Tate's hindered ability to run the read-option has little to do with a lack of athleticism but more to do with his ability to read the defensive end in the split second required to successfully run the play. What makes you think that a true freshman, who is not enrolling early, will be able to read the play with more accuracy than an incumbent starter who ran the play each week in live game action.
November 24th, 2009 at 9:10 AM ^
I think Tate does have some physical limitations - lack of speed to some extent, but especially lack of size. Also, unlike Denard, Tate doesn't seem to know how to take hits properly (Denard, on the other hand, needs to learn to go down after it becomes clear he's not going to move the pile any further, or strengthen his arms and hands so he doesn't get stripped in those situations.)
So, yeah - Tate is not ideal for the read-option. That's not to say he's not viable, but Gardner will certainly have considerable physical advantages over him in the run game.
November 24th, 2009 at 12:28 AM ^
Gardner will see playing time. I have no doubt about that.
November 24th, 2009 at 12:29 AM ^
to play in your last 2-3 years in college while learning the first few years right? Tate is a junior by just Devin's (theoretical) redshirt freshman year. That leaves plenty of time for Devin to display all his talents and lead our team to many victories. Competition is great and expected from the #1 QB recruit in the nation but Tate has too many intangibles as well as quantitative talents that are too useful to overlook.
November 24th, 2009 at 12:37 AM ^
Posts like this have a small chance of driving recruits away. Maybe we should refrain from negative posts about kids until they at least sign their LOI's. I would personally wait a little longer than that myself, but I am more patient than some.
November 24th, 2009 at 12:52 AM ^
It advocates starting an experienced QB over an inexperienced but more athletic QB. There's nothing wrong with this conversation.
November 24th, 2009 at 8:21 AM ^
You have an inflated sense of the importance of mgoboard. OH NO'S, WE MUST WATCH OUR WORDS! MY WORDS CAN INFLUENCE THE FUTURE OF MICHIGAN FOOTBALL! WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY!
November 24th, 2009 at 9:02 AM ^
Devin, if you are reading this message board we, the m go community, love you and worship your existence
November 24th, 2009 at 12:38 AM ^
I believe we NEED Devin to redshirt next year. I am in the camp that feels it is the time that we start actually being patient and developing some of our incoming talent and NOT play them right away. It is necessary for our long-term growth.
Now I understand the developer of such talent (RichRod) doesn't have all the time in the world anymore to sit on players and wait for them to be ready to go, but I think he can wait on DG just like he did J Turner.
November 24th, 2009 at 12:53 AM ^
i don't think DG will be redshirted. i've long been thinking that he will but watching DR play the second half of the season has changed that. i wouldn't be surprised to see him in as a more balanced version of DR. yes i realize he doesn't have the same speed as DR but i can count on one hand the number of times DR actually impressed me with his speed.
This may be a wild conspiracy theory of a guess. but if next year truly is rich rods last shot (which is stupid) then would he consider putting all of his eggs in one basket. would he choose to play DG early in the hopes that his talent tips the scale in our favor early in his career giving us a short term gain instead of working towards a long term solution? food for thought.
November 24th, 2009 at 12:54 AM ^
Just assuming that Forcier will be that much better after 20 months in the system seems a bit optimistic to me, his 5 turnovers Saturday really changed my hopes for him going into next year. He is definitely a good fit for the system, but honestly, has he improved much since the first few games of the season? I don't think he played horribly down the stretch minus the debacle on Saturday, but there didn't seem to be too much improvement.
Whether or not Gardner lives up to the hype remains to be seen, but his inexperience could certainly be offset by his physical advantages over Forcier. I really hope Forcier surprises me, but he just seems waaaay to antsy in the pocket; however I'd like to think the next 9 months will cure that for the most part.
November 24th, 2009 at 1:09 AM ^
aaaaannd why doesn't it surprise me that people neg me for this.. awesome
November 24th, 2009 at 8:20 AM ^
Anything other than blind optimism must be punished. You have been warned.
November 24th, 2009 at 2:40 AM ^
Devin will play and he will eventually start. The guy is too good to keep off the field.
Something to consider: to use an analogy, this coaching staff knows it can't store anymore bullets in the chamber.... it has to fire all shots or else it won't be retained after 2010. So what good does it do this staff to sit Devin Gardner??? None whatsover.
This staff knows that next year is it. And you have to go balls out.... guns blazing. And you certainly can't sit or redshirt the best quarterback in the country.
Just watch what I am saying. DG will play. And moreover, DG is the kind of quarterback that Rich Rod has stayed up nights dreaming about. I don't think it was by accident that Rich Rod floated out that: a) Tate is not doing it in the classroom right now, and b) that the quarterback position is not settled going into next year.
November 24th, 2009 at 7:13 AM ^
what you are talking about? You have not seen DG play, unless it was in HS, which doesn't mean much. You really have no idea, nor do any of us, whether he is good or not. Recruiting ratings measure potential, and the top ranked QB does not equal "instant starter."
November 24th, 2009 at 3:10 AM ^
imo, rich rod is going to start the best "all around" (including knowledge of the offense) player, regardless of class or experience.
if devin comes in early, learns the playbook quickly, and performs better than tate and denard in practice, than rich rod's going to go with him. to quote joe-d, there are no sacred cows here.
it's not likely, but gardner might be so good that rich feels he has a better chance to win with him (and a more limited playbook) than with tate (and a more expanded playbook).
the most likely scenario, imo, is that we start off the season with something like urban meyer's use of chris leak and tim tebow.
November 24th, 2009 at 3:35 AM ^
that Devin could potentially be every bit ready to start for the UConn game next year, and I am absolutely sure that RR will give him shot in training camp next year. Devin will be redshirted coming into the season, but if he appears in training camp to live up to all of his incredible hype, he may get the chance to start from day 1. This is only an issue that RR can resolve when he sees them compete against each other. The best player will play.
November 24th, 2009 at 8:31 AM ^
Considering the importance of last year's QB class, it would disappoint me if either Tate or Denard was not the starting QB next year.
One of the most important things for a coaching staff is to identify talent and get it. There were a lot of QBs last year that Michigan could have taken or at least recruited more heavily, even considering the decommits. It would worry me to think that RR whiffed, or thought he whiffed, on QBs in the 09 class.
Honestly, does anyone want to see a freshmen QB start?
November 24th, 2009 at 6:38 AM ^
Where's Captain Obvious?
November 24th, 2009 at 6:41 AM ^
There has been talk of Gardner coming in and starting next year.That talk has all been, "It would be crazy for Devin Gardner to start next year, we should almost definitely redshirt him."
November 24th, 2009 at 6:57 AM ^
it would be better for him to get a redshirt. another year at the end when he will be amazing hopefully instead of giving him a few snap a game in 2010.playing every snap in 2013 is much better
November 24th, 2009 at 7:22 AM ^
These things are just as likely as Gardner starting next year:
- Charlie Weis keeps his job.
- Tom Brady separates from Gisele because of her looks.
- Lindsay Lohan quits doing drugs.
- Peanut butter stops being tasty.
- Kashi products give you an impacted colon.
- I get laid.
November 24th, 2009 at 8:08 AM ^
That last "unliikely to happen" bullet makes me sad for you. I guess a guy can't get laid on football knowledge alone. You'll always have a place with us here Magnus!
P.S. We had a walk on safety and LB starting this year so I wouldn't count anything out as far as getting a little goes
November 24th, 2009 at 8:30 AM ^
that we should definitely start DG next fall. No matter what. I mean, what the heck does RR know? I am so glad you cleared this up for me. What was I thinking? If, by some quirk of fate Devin Gardner beats out Tate and Denard--and remember that could happen due to injury or competition or behavior--I still think you should start Cone.
Seriously, I know you put a grea deal of thought into your post but I still think whatever RR actually does is prolly the best thing. I could be wrong. I am wrong a lot. But at least you didn't post about DG going to Florida--therefore, you get a point.
November 24th, 2009 at 8:54 AM ^
very well for periods this season, but I don't think he played as well as many posts on this topic would indicate. Michigan was 5-7, he was the starting QB, some of the teams struggles have to be attributed to the starting QB. He had nearly a full year on campus and eleven starts under his belt going into the OSU game, more than many second or third years starters have, and he turned the football over five times. I think that results in plenty of room for debate as to what next year will bring. Certainly continuity is important for a team and this fact would lead to the sincere hope that Forcier improves and is the starter next year. However, I don't think he perfomed well enough to be deemed the "starter" to the exclusion of other possibilities. I, for one, cannot wait to see the possibilities with Gardner as well.
November 24th, 2009 at 8:40 AM ^
Remember that Vince Young redshirted and I truly believe T. Pryor would be way better if he redshirted...PLEASE redshirt DG unless there is an injury. That is all.
...btw if you haven't read the comments on the 'State fight' thread, please do...I almost spit my cereal all over my screen...some funny muthas reside here.
November 24th, 2009 at 8:44 AM ^
I agree that Tate has to take some of the blame for the offense's struggles. Others who should receive blame:
- God, for injuring Minor and Brown.
- God, for injuring Molk.
- The coaches for doing silly things sometimes, like not putting in Minor on the goal line against Illinois.
- The offensive line, for not blocking very well.
That being said, there's no way in Hell that Rodriguez will start a player for a third consecutive year who has never taken a college snap. It ain't gonna happen, especially when Gardner won't even play in the spring game.
Tate isn't guaranteed to start in 2010, just like he wasn't guaranteed to start in 2009 - but he's going to start.
November 24th, 2009 at 8:58 AM ^
the punt return men for not catching the damn ball, Moosman for snapping the ball to the band, and again God, for several other things. I agree that there is plenty of blame to go around, and understand that I am not trying to blast Tate. I HOPE he starts next year and agree that it is very likely that he does, I just meant to say that the season, in nearly all ways, left a lot to be decided long term.
November 24th, 2009 at 8:46 AM ^
Especially if he can run the zone read play with proficiency. Obviously, Tate will be a far superior passer next year. But Tate running the venerable bread n' butter play in Rod's offense looks muuch like Denard on an obvious passing down at this point (the difference being that mistakes are far less costly and obvious in the former.
Tate will make strides as a passer, and he should be able to improve his ball fakes. But he's always going to be a scrambler rather than a runner, and I question whether he can pull the trigger on keeping the ball himself on a regular basis. I know he had injuries the second half of the year that he had to protect, but I'm concerned that his size and his lack of ideal instincts re: how to get hit are going to make that a familiar refrain.
I hope I'm wrong - I hope that the coaching staff + Barwis will address these things by next year. But don't be surprised if Gardner sees some snaps as the superior option in the run game, as long as his passing is better than Denard's next year (which we'll have to wait and see.)
November 24th, 2009 at 9:26 AM ^
I know we didn't get to see him much this year and the few times we did it was "meh" but I am still in the camp that thinks , given some time and if he puts forth the effort, Denard Robinson has a good shot at starting next year. I like Tate a lot but if Robinson can improve his accuracy over the summer he will be dangerous. He has a stronger arm than Tate and is quicker and more elusive. Once the line has another year together and can work more as a unit it should open up some of those running plays for him as well. I for one like our qb situation going into next year a lot more than I did the past 2 years no matter how you spin it.
November 24th, 2009 at 9:53 AM ^
---Being 17-18 years old and playing in front of massive crowds.
---Heart
---Traveling
Tate has 12 games under his belt this is not something that you bring with you from H.S. Size, talent, strength,...yeah, they all play a part, but DG has to experience all of these things before learning to deal with the immenseity of huge stadiums.
Tate has proven he has heart. Even when obviously injured, he didn't quit and DG must prove this outside the practice sessions.
My biggest concern about the M-state game was that the young guys were traveling for the first time...and to a very hostile atmosphere, no less. Tate and the others have now experienced this to a certain extent. They spent their first four games in front of an exuberent crowd and hadn't yet experienced the long trips on buses or planes and not having 80,000-90,000 friends by their side.
If RR has the talent coming in that everyone says he does, then they'll get their shot when the time comes...when they're ready to take on all aspects of the game, not just decision making, running, passing, etc.
Outside forces (outside the practice sessions) are a huge factor here and it would take an incredible kid to have all of those abilities in such a short time.
November 24th, 2009 at 11:35 AM ^
We do not need another freshmen running this system. Threet and Sheridan were terrible fits for the spread, but Tate and Denard(when he gets more reps at QB) have already shown promise that this offense will take off with experience under their belts.
Redshirting DG so he can learn the system would be the best thing for the future and giving DG some confidence.
November 24th, 2009 at 3:23 PM ^
regardless of who starts, the qb play is going to be much better next season, and that is something we can all agree to be excited about. tate will be much improved. denard will be much improved. devin will be much improved. the oline will be much improved. the recievers will be much improved. the running game will be much improved.