Apparently I have to say this: treat recruits with respect
Brandon posted an article about 2016 recruit Teryn Savage, and this is his takeaway from his experience at MGoBlog:
https://twitter.com/TerynSavage/status/382644691738451968
So congratulations, leftrare, MGoBrewMom, JuggernautRides, and chitownblue2, and the other people in that thread who insulted the kid for no reason. Guess what: people are interested to see what people say about them on the internet, and now a potential recruit doesn't want to talk to Brandon.
If you think that 2016 is a magic land from which news cannot come, don't read it. We're going to report on kids that are being recruited.
Going forward, anything that could be interpreted as an insult to a blameless high school kid will result in a no-warning ban. Even if that interpretation is crazy. Any "pedo" references will also result in a ban.
In conclusion, guh.
September 25th, 2013 at 3:01 AM ^
This message board has become exceedingly toxic and unmoderateable. The pseudointellectualism of some posters is simply insufferable. The only reason some are giving crap to Brian and the other contributors is because they can't help but disagree for the sake of disagreeing. I'm 100% sure concern for the kids(which are obviously not being harmed by an interview) is the last thing on these people's minds.
Thank God the WLA circle jerk is dead now btw. About half of the toxicity within this board is probably dying with it. The other half will probably die when the board gets locked down during games and 2-3 hours after it. The insults hurled at the student athletes representing the university by some here is appalling. Some people really need to get a life and stop throwing fits when their fix of vicarious glory isn't met for the week.
September 25th, 2013 at 10:22 AM ^
The blustering pretentiousness of about a dozen "long standing, honored" members is pretty much gag inducing.
September 25th, 2013 at 12:43 PM ^
The WLA, for as long as I've been here, pre-dating the board, have been the leaders in calling out shit posters who contribute nothing, and have led the charge against the "Player X sucks and should have his scholarship pulled" posts.
It seems like a lot of people are equating someone having an honest disagreement and being willing to voice that disagreement with concern trolling, flaming, or "spreading negativity."
Banning users like Chitown will only serve to raise the level of toxcicity on the board.
The only thing keeping this place from devolving into MLive is the fact that we have a number of users dedicated to culling those elements from the board when they should arise via a well thought out verbal slap down.
We just lost one of those users yesterday (and potentially several more), for essentially no reason other than the exacting of personal vendettas by the proprietor and contributors of this blog.
That's fine. It's Brian's blog, but don't continute to bitch about the horrid state of the user base if you're going to run off all of your best users with a sort of trite pettiness.
September 25th, 2013 at 3:26 AM ^
Brian, for what it's worth, I think you should address this again at some point. Although I can only speak for myself, I suspect you've left a lot of readers feeling alienated. I almost always find your writing insightful, fair, consistent, clever, and charitable to the people you're writing about (or addressing), but this thread - to me - doesn't meet those standards. I'm totally willing to chalk that up to a weird moment. I'd imagine that UFR'ing the Akron and UConn games does strange things to a man.
I'm not worked up about chitown, because while I liked reading his posts, I get that there's a personal history that we don't need to know about and that's more than enough to justify him getting axed. What bothers me is (1) the attack on posters who had no reason to believe they had done anything wrong, without any suggestion that MGoBlog might have been partly responsible, and (2) the complete lack of ambivalence expressed about contacting and writing about young kids (and lack of interest expressed in engaging in a conversation about reasonable precautions to take while doing so).
Personally, I'd love to see MGoBlog take the lead on responsible interaction with recruits, since I think you guys are unusually classy for people working in this area and I think your product is more than strong enough to stand on its own without constantly breaking recruiting news. Not that I was asked, but I could imagine just a couple really basic rules like (1) we won't contact kids until they turn 16 and (2) we'll reach out to kids through their coaches first. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if that ended up getting you access to some kids who won't talk to other sources because the kids, coaches, or parents don't like how the other sources do business.
Just my two cents.
September 25th, 2013 at 5:56 AM ^
September 25th, 2013 at 8:39 AM ^
September 25th, 2013 at 12:24 PM ^
Exactly.
Since when was, "Well, it might kind of questionable ethically, but everybody else is doing it!" a valid excuse?
This place has always claimed to hold itself to a higher standard than other forms of media, but apparently when that standard isn't being met and we attempt to hold the blog to it, we're greeted with the same cantankerous scorn traditional print media often reserves for bloggers.
"You kids just don't understand, that's just how the game works."
"If you don't like it, go back to your own little shitty corner of the internet, because the internet is flith."
I think MGo has officially come full circle.
September 25th, 2013 at 12:30 PM ^
Amen brother.
September 25th, 2013 at 1:31 PM ^
That very sentiment about being a bit better than the other blogs was one of my main reasons for sticking around here. After Brian went off on Jason from TBL at the Blogs with Balls conference, it seemed pretty clear that Brian was holding himself and his employees to a higher degree of professionalism. From what Brandon is saying, and the way Brian is backing him up, that difference has now disappeared. And I think it sucks.
September 25th, 2013 at 9:28 AM ^
When we are talking about how a kid is contacted, you do realize we aren't speaking about any kid in particular, right? Brandon flat out told us he doesn't always talk to a parent. We have no idea which kids he has and has not made that type of contact with. That is the issue we are raising.
Those of us who have commented the most about how he is going about his job are also those that either work with kids or have worked in the news. Of that group, every single one of us are saying that what he is doing is sub-optimal. The fact that Brandon and Brian refuse to engage us in a meaningful conversation on the topic is off-putting.
I completely understand Brian losing his shit about a recruit getting pissed, and I also mostly understand why he banned ChiTown. However, those actions have raised legitamate questions about other aspects of the blog.
What might be the most damning action would be Brandon posting an update about Teryn Savage on the board, but leaving the damn comments on. Multiple people were saying the easiest way to fix the issue about pissing off recruits would be to simply lock the comment section on recruit news and interviews that Brandon puts up. So of course, when he puts up that board topic, this conversation spilled over into that thread.
Once again, he showed a lack of basic judgement and common sense by doing that. Seeing as we aren't generally used to that lack when we read this blog, it becomes off-putting. At least to me.
September 25th, 2013 at 9:03 AM ^
and all the inflated self-worth and perceived bullying power that goes with the points associated with the user name. He is likely already posting under a different user name. Given his style of posting, it will soon be obvious.
September 25th, 2013 at 4:15 AM ^
September 25th, 2013 at 4:41 AM ^
September 25th, 2013 at 8:34 AM ^
I didn't ask Brian to nuke chitown, but I am perfectly fine with it. Like Brian said, it was a last straw kind of thing, and while it would have been understandable if chitown used my name thinking it was okay, but it was pretty obvious by the context that wasn't the case. He was trying to be malicious, and though the damage was minimal, the intent makes it a thing.
Several of you here know my name, and for those who don't, it isn't hard to find. This is the world. But a lot of my work here depends on my ability to maintain a scintilla of space between my day job and my evening work as a blogging golden retriever. Without that, I probably can't do both, which would mean I couldn't do this. Because, like, bills and stuff.
Part of it is my fault, because I partially lifted the curtain by using part of my actual name. So, lest there be any confusion, I have returned to my previous handle.
September 25th, 2013 at 8:46 AM ^
...came from this tire fire of a thread. Welcome back, BiSB. We missed you!
September 25th, 2013 at 10:55 AM ^
^^^^^
Its sad that people have to resort to full anonymity for fear of people throwing out personal information out of malice.
Seriously, people, does the internet make everyone forget all social etiquite and boundries? Why can't we all just act like normal people? If you don't like content and have something useful to add or a well-reasoned argument, please post it! But if you don't like something or someone, don't bash them, just stay away. E.g. there are a lot of f-ing a--holes in this world that I don't like and what I do I do in relation to them? I avoid them like the plague.
Internets or no internets, this Board should be more like real life, if only because we all share a love of Michigan. This common interest/bond should bind us all and make each of us a little more lenient with others here than we even would be with people in the real world! Otherwise, what's the point of having an MGoCommunity at all?
September 25th, 2013 at 12:23 PM ^
There was a piece on NPR this past week about human societal interaction using e-communication vs. traditional communication. It also tracked the role it played on the associated lives. I.e. they have proven that when some one posts they have lost weight, there is a trend of their followers to lose weight and vice versa. In a completely seperate NPR segment this week they talked about the role games like Grand Theft Auto have played in how humans interact with other humans. As you can guess, it was not good.
That's a long winded way of saying seeing your post and your avitar made me chuckle.
September 25th, 2013 at 11:00 AM ^
so brave
September 25th, 2013 at 8:46 AM ^
and I'll stand by the importance of treating recruits and potential recruits with respect.
That said I think that it policy enforcement must be a razor not a hammer.
As for the tone and wording of the warning. I find the "pedo" reference very interesting. Sometimes a blog owner or moderator feels they have to reenforce a boundary BEFORE it is crossed. I suspect some of that is at work here.
The difficulty with the wording of the warning is found in this sentence "Even if that interpretation is crazy." How can anyone write something that is free from a "crazy" interpretation? Given the result is a no-warning ban acting on that criteria eliminates virtually any commentary.
If you read through comments on offered recruits you'll find rather in depth discussions on their merits as players. If one of our coach commenters says "in my opinion he has trouble controlling his upper body", while clearly it is not, that comment could sanely be intrepreted by the recruit as an "insult".
I've been reading this blog for something more than four years. I've read much of prior postings before that. The blog is not significantly more douchy than before "self policing" was removed. Yes there are few cases that can be pointed to, but there were others before. While I can find various topical blogs that provide the same quality of insight into various aspects of football, there is no blog with the breadth and depth of coverage that approaches mgoblog. This is in no small part to the excellent participants here who add additional depth and insight into the posts by the staff.
Brian has put a stake in the ground about the need for care and respect for recruits. He has done so in a fashion that has focused the attention of the participants here. I would suggest that he and the rest of the support structure of this blog take a deep breath and formulate a detailed policy about what can and can not be said. Then provide rules and guidelines that will be subject to sane interpretation.
September 25th, 2013 at 9:21 AM ^
I think there is definitely a fine line between critiquing someone's game versus commenting on their physical appearance, speech, intelligence or anything else personal in nature.
September 25th, 2013 at 9:43 AM ^
Maybe it's overused by now...
September 25th, 2013 at 9:45 AM ^
...that what MGoLeader says in his OP is essentially what he said in this 2005 post: mgoblog's recruiting philosophy which is conveniently cataloged in the top section of the oft ignored but ever useful User Curated (mostly MGoShoe Curated) MGoHallOfFame.
My name is Brian, and I follow recruiting. I realize that this is on some level a disease. I am at the beck and call of athletic 17-year-olds [MGoShoe edit: 15-18 year olds] who may or may not choose to attend the same school I did in the rapidly receding past and play a fundamentally meaningless game. I do this because it is just that important to me that Ohio State is defeated and slinks back to their system of prehistoric ape-caves they dare to call a "state" with its collective tail between its collective legs.
You're either with me on that point or not. If you aren't, I commend you on your sense of perspective and lack of obsessive, addictive tendencies. You are probably bad in bed. You lack passion for everything except a well-peeled carrot. You are free to go.
Here's a blockquoted portion of Etiquette guideline no. 2 in that piece:
2. Do not disparage recruits except in extraordinary circumstances. This goes quadruple for uncommitted recruits--a recent flagrant example on Rivals occurred when someone posted some idiocy about how he doubted Justin Boren's "love for Michigan" because he hadn't committed yet. Boren committed soon after and then expressed his love for Michigan. How do you feel now, anonymous internet moron? [MGoShoe comment: Maybe Brian wants this example back, but you get the point (or at least, you should).]
The primary reason not to disparage a recruit is the fact that if you do so, you are a douchebag. You are running down a person you have never met because he is not going to your school or is unlikely to do so. This is a sign of mental illness or extreme immaturity. These players are choosing the direction their life will go in, narrowing down their choices from a bewildering array of schools all rolling out the red carpet and promising a moon or two.
The secondary reason not to disparage a recruit is there's a damn good chance they'll read it. Lord knows I obsessively hunt down references to this blog when they appear on the internet (far, far too infrequently). Any teenager on the planet is going to want to know what people think about him, and if he comes across someone saying something stupid on a message board he's probably going to think less well of that particular school. It won't hurt much--but it won't help.
So with that as preamble, here's my two cents on this kerfuffle.
- The original piece on the recruit was somewhat jarring. A post about a 2016 kid without an offer shows up on the front page and it got immediate attention. The piece seemed to be something of a departure for the approach to recruting coverage on this site. The photo selection was unfortunate because it detracted from the substance of the content of the article. All of these are editorial decisions and editorial decisions are typically fair game in any journalistic enterprise.
- That said, when readers express their displeasure regarding editorial decisions within a thread, the likelihood of a thread disaster approaches near certainty. A more adult approach (and heaven knows I've not always followed my own advice in this regard), is to contact said editor with a discreet inquiry. Especially since he provides a specific avenue for this (see the "Contact" link at the top of every page).
- The proprietor of this blog has provided guidelines for conduct. The links for these guidelines range from easy to hard to find, but they are extant.
- We are a community and within a community, disagreements will arise. When we engage in internet-anonymous back-and-forth exchanges, we often behave in ways we wouldn't if we were engaging these same people in face-to-face repartee. Establishing what is serious and what is srs, is difficult and variable. Given that, it's best to dial back the vitriol.
- Snark is one of the hallmarks of Brian's writing. He uses sarcasm and exaggeration as tools to illuminate issues and engage viewers in his writing. Many of us use it as well. Unfortunately, one person's snark is another person's insult. And yes, some posts on message boards deserve derision and insult. But its reflexive use can be damaging. So, it's dangerous and everyone should keep that in mind when employing it.
- The moderators of this blog do an outstanding job policing thread OPs and comments. That said, they can't be everywhere at all times. The initial thread was begging for moderation that never came. In retrospect, I should have passed along my thoughts to LSAClassof2000 on Twitter where I know I'd find him pretty quickly and others should have as well. But, one of the best features of this blog was always the strength of its user moderation. Leaving aside debates about the efficacy of the old moderating system vs. the last moderating system, the absence of any user moderating system for technical reasons has had dramatic negative effects on the user experience. The MGoBlogerati has an outstanding track record of identifying and stamping out little fires before they become tire fires. I know its restoration is a major goal of Brian's, but I'd urge that finding a fix for this should be even greater priority.
Now, back to work I go. I hope this proves somewhat useful in moving things forward.
September 25th, 2013 at 10:01 AM ^
I haven't been on top of a lot of threads like I should be in the past week or so. That's not for no reason, but I do accept my share of responsibility for letting things devolve. Beyond just a reminder to keep up, there is an ongoing conversation about how best to handle these situations and keep things as civil as possible.
You can DM me any time, MGoShoe, and I can get my email to you if you're ever in need of that as well.
September 25th, 2013 at 10:10 AM ^
...JGB. In the future, I will certainly DM you when I see an issue.
September 25th, 2013 at 10:43 AM ^
With the datbull front page post?
September 25th, 2013 at 11:11 AM ^
a) he wasn't a recruit, and
b) it had nothing to do with his choice of school.
September 25th, 2013 at 2:05 PM ^
You are running down a person you have never met because he is not going to your school or is unlikely to do so. This is a sign of mental illness or extreme immaturity.
The fac that he was unlikely to go to Michigan does or doesn't make it right? If the moral stance of that post and the blog is that make fun of kids going to other schools but not ours that's certainly an interesting take on right and wrong.
September 25th, 2013 at 2:24 PM ^
Statements about how to treat recruits (like, for example, the one you cited) don't necessarily apply to people who aren't recruits. There are plenty of other moral implications, but the one you cited was, by its very terms, recruit-specific. The 'target' in question wasn't a football recruit at that point. He was a terrible musician who smoked weed on camera.
September 25th, 2013 at 2:33 PM ^
So let me get this straight....
The MGoPolicy is...
If I insult a recruit I am automatically banned.
However, the second said recruit quits football, I am free to insult ex-recruit with total impunity?
Got it.
September 25th, 2013 at 2:42 PM ^
The "don't bash recruits ever" rule does not apply to non-recruits. You are free to bash Tim Tebow or Joan of Arc or Walter White without violating THAT rule.
Other rules still apply, like "don't be a prick to people who don't deserve it," so if a kid quits football because of injury or whatnot, bashing him would probably still be in poor taste. Bashing a guy who issues a press release announcing his intention to pursue a music career FOR HIS MUSIC is probably not in violation of that rule.
September 25th, 2013 at 2:48 PM ^
Yes
Wow.
September 25th, 2013 at 2:51 PM ^
There was more after the "yes," BTW. Probably worth reading.
September 25th, 2013 at 2:55 PM ^
I did.
It equated a professional athlete, a well known historical figure, and a fictional character to a 16 year old kid who quit playing football.
September 26th, 2013 at 12:30 AM ^
You're digging the hole deeper BISB. You screwed up and you should apologize. Not to the board, but to the kid. Put Coach Brown's social media skillz to good use for once.
September 25th, 2013 at 6:02 PM ^
You are butt hurt because people are attacking you and what you see as a potential career path. Sometimes it is just best to get out in front and say my bad. Your pride and arrogance apparently won't allow that.
September 25th, 2013 at 8:07 PM ^
I don't see this as anything approaching a career path. If anything, it is a distraction from my career path. This is just something I do in my spare time, and will probably only do for so long as I continue find it enjoyable (and as long as people find it enjoyable in return).
I got enough pushback at the time, and now, to tell me that some people found that piece in poor taste. I'm not planning to apologize, because I disagree, but I respect those people. I'll err on the side of caution in the future.
September 25th, 2013 at 2:39 PM ^
But if he had never played football/been an MSU recruit, what business would your piece have being on the front page of MGoBlog? With all due respect, your <occupation redacted> is really coming through here.
Wouldn't you at least admit that you might think twice about posting something similar in the future?
September 25th, 2013 at 2:49 PM ^
between the rule and the behavior. I provided it. That's lawyerin', man.
And trust me, I considered it. Brian approved it. And I think the reason was that once you give this interview:
http://www.maxpreps.com/news/5XTEYe91NUyQ9p9gNWy0_w/jay-harris-shuns-fo…
your music is completely fair game, regardless of how you came to the public eye.
September 25th, 2013 at 3:01 PM ^
I should just quit, because it's obvious you've staked your ground and you're not going to concede an inch, but you're missing the point: If this kid had never played football, why would you/Brian put him on the front page of MGoBlog? This isn't a music blog.
September 25th, 2013 at 8:24 PM ^
I'm not trying to get too deep into an issue that seems irrelevant, but it's not like this blog has shied away from at least noting some weird behaviors going on at other schools and with recruits not interested in UM. Every time some story comes out about a recruit doing something weird, there is at least a mention of it, sometimes rather prominently, on this site.
Personally, I thought it was kind of a weird article to front page because, honestly, I felt sorry for the kid. I know guys dream of becoming "rap stars" and whatever, but he looked like any number of kids who figures he'll break into the business and instead winds up stuck in his hometown with a couple of youtube videos and a whole lot of wasted potential. But regardless, people hang onto that post as proof that this blog is hypocritical and its rules ignored because of it. It's one data point against numerous others, and I totally understand why Brian and others that derive some financial and cultural benefit from this site don't want it to devolve into name-calling and recruit-bashing by a bunch of anonymous people with absolutely no stake in the proceedings.
September 25th, 2013 at 8:57 PM ^
You're basically missing the point too. BiSB said this:
your music is completely fair game, regardless of how you came to the public eye.
He's claiming that he would have created that post even if that kid had, for example, been a chess champion and given that up to pursue a rap career. That's a crock, and he's knows it and is just unwilling to admit it. The only reason that post gets created and posted on the front page is because that kid was a football player and especially a former MSU recruit.
Putting aside the hypothetical, if a recruit does some weird thing and Brian includes it as one item among many in one of his Unverified Voracity amalgamations, that's one thing. But to splash a huge item belittling the kid on the front page is quite another.
September 25th, 2013 at 3:33 PM ^
How about simply not trashing any kid in the manner done in that post? It doesnt matter that he was or was not a MIchigan recruit. Or that it was music instead of football. Well, wait. It did matter that he wasnt our recruit. You ripped that kid mostly so you could get cheap shots in on him and MSU. It was a ridiculous post
September 25th, 2013 at 3:37 PM ^
I feel like not insulting or making fun of high school kids is a pretty good MGoLife policy.
Not a very MICHMAN thing to do.
September 25th, 2013 at 3:59 PM ^
And it was probably a waste of time and interweb. But I respectfully disagree that it was mean-spirited or a "cheap shot." If you look back at the post (probably don't, because it's not worth it), it was mostly about NSFW language and terrible camera work/scene location choices. I think I took one shot at Sparty, but it was about losing Drake Harris (and who could avoid that shot).
Did it draw cheap laughs using the premise of a disgraced high schooler? Yes. And for that, I feel a little bad. But based on his actions, I don't feel TOO bad.
September 25th, 2013 at 4:32 PM ^
Whatever you have to tell yourself to get to sleep at night, huh?
Come on, you directly and at great length made fun of a high school kid on the front page. If someone banned me for pointing that out, you can at least feel bad about it for a few minutes.
September 25th, 2013 at 11:53 AM ^
September 25th, 2013 at 9:59 AM ^
September 25th, 2013 at 11:02 AM ^
"You people make comments about how black kids look how do you look? People hide behind the internet, talk shit and make comments that they would never make in person. "
I just read through the original thread, and unless posts were deleted, I did not see anyone talking shit. There were comments regarding how young Teryn looks (which admittedly was the first thought in my head when I saw the front page picture a couple days ago) but those comments were not made to disparage Teryn, but rather to start a discussion on whether this blog (or any site) should be in the business of interviewing kids that young. Teryn is only a sophmore in high school, and not having much experience with mgoblog, may not have picked up on the context of the discussion at first... sounds like he has since gone back and realized what people were saying by "he looks young".
September 25th, 2013 at 10:05 AM ^
Why the hell would anyone down vote this thread? This thread should not even have to be posted, as it's common sense to not make fun of kids who are potential M players.
September 25th, 2013 at 11:29 AM ^
No one is downvoting the rule to be respectful to recruits in your comments. They are downvoting what is perceived to be hypocrisy and flippancy of the staff in their handling of some of the criticisms they are receiving here.