WTKA Roundtable 12/14/2023: You Just Have to Be Less Bad Comment Count

Seth December 14th, 2023 at 10:36 AM

Things Discussed:

  • Howard/Sanderson incident: Now you have to let it play out. Subordination or HR issue?
  • Howard other than that: assessment isn't good. Biggest issue has been LSA's admissions policies.
  • Iowa: Best game they've played all year.
  • Rose Bowl: Get to Milroe early. They're 2021 Ohio State except they'll bring an extra guy into the box every play.

[Hit the JUMP for the player, and video and stuff]

You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.

Segment 2 is here. You can watch the video here:

The Usual Links:

This is the SWAC.

Comments

InHoc548

December 14th, 2023 at 10:44 AM ^

The LSA transfer policy is not the biggest issue.  The biggest issue is Juwan's inability to coach.  He's a mediocre recruiter who doesn't develop talent.  Our teams consistently give away games late, and go long stretches of time without a FG.  Sure, it would be nice to have guys that want to transfer, but get better with what you got.

dragonchild

December 14th, 2023 at 10:56 AM ^

It kind of is though, but not how it's framed.

The LSA sucks, and that goes well beyond athletics.  That said, if your neighbor builds a brick wall on your property, you can't keep slamming your head into it and then use that as an excuse for injury.  Whatever legal case you may have, you also look like an idiot.  LSA being stingy with transfer credits predates Howard by decadesBeilein dealt with it.  Does it suck?  Indubitably.  But then why the hell is he expending limited resources going after transfers we all but know won't get admitted?  If it's to make a point, it's not one he should be allowed to sink the program to make.

I'm on record as NOT one to turn our AD into a "we ain't here to play school" joint, and it's certainly absurd that the LSA's transfer policy is basically impossible to deal with, and that absolutely cripples the athletic programs.  But the thing to do here, beyond continue to complain about it, is focus on HS recruits and grad transfers, and not waste another second on anyone with no chance of coming here.

jmblue

December 14th, 2023 at 12:07 PM ^

LSA's transfer policy is basically impossible to deal with, and that absolutely cripples the athletic programs. 

This is a little over the top.  Most of our sports teams are doing fine, and we just happen to be undefeated and #1 in the country in the highest-profile sport!

U-M wants people who graduate from here to have completed a majority (60+) of their credits here.  They don't want someone completing most of their studies elsewhere and then claiming to be a Michigan grad, both because they feel it could compromise the value of that degree ... and also because they like getting our tuition money.  That's the school's position and it's defensible.  

For underclassman transfers, this usually doesn't pose a problem. Witness Ernest Haussmann, Charles Matthews, Duncan Robinson, et al.  Introductory courses generally will transfer over.  

For grad transfers, there is no real issue.  We've brought in a bunch.

It is an issue for upperclassmen who aren't able to graduate before they come here, yes.  But they are only a minority of all the players in the portal.  Our problem in basketball was that we targeted players in this category two offseasons in a row - Shannon and Love.  We should have done our due diligence, figured out that these guys probably weren't going to make it, and moved on to other targets.  Instead we put our eggs in the Shannon/Love basket, watched them end up not getting in, and blamed admissions.

At the same time, we did bring in three transfers this offseason (Burnett, Nkamhoua, Jackson).  How did our roster management get to the point where three transfers in one offseason wasn't enough?

dragonchild

December 14th, 2023 at 12:24 PM ^

Yeah I'll cop to being hyperbolic.  But I'd say the focus on Shannon and Love was at least as destructive as the failure to get them on campus.

Missing on a player, that happens.  Missing on a transfer you gambled heavily on when just asking around would've gotten you a roomful of guffaws about how Quixotic your idea is, you dun goofed.

bronxblue

December 14th, 2023 at 12:20 PM ^

Largely agree, though I'll add that I think Howard has really only missed on two transfers - Shannon and Love - who he likely assumed (and was probably told as much) would be grad transfers.  The Love situation is less acceptable because Howard had seen with Shannon but lots of these guys technically graduate within 3 years because they're on campus over the summer and so take courses.  Nimari Burnett is from the same class as Love and is a grad transfer, for example.  

I don't think we should blame everything on admissions and Howard deserves some blame for not locking this down with transfers before they come in but also it does feel a bit like he's just been snakebitten with situations that had they just gone as expected would have alleviated a number of issues.

4th phase

December 14th, 2023 at 1:12 PM ^

The most frustrating thing is that if Howard just tampered with Shannon and Love, instead of being above board, their schools would have been more willing to let them finish their degrees. At least that was the case with Shannon, who once he committed to Michigan, Texas Tech decided to be petty about letting him graduate.

Maison Bleue

December 14th, 2023 at 11:03 AM ^

I agree that admissions policies are certainly not the biggest issue. Would it have been nice to get Shannon and Love? Of course, but maybe make sure you are allocating time and resources to bring in players you KNOW will be admitted. That's on Coach Howard.

UM had two first-round NBA draft picks and the #1 transfer portal target on its team last season and couldn't make the tournament. That's not an admissions problem, that's a coaching/roster construction problem.

I also find it odd that Coach Howard can't give a press conference but is well enough to sit on the bench, get thrown out of games, and allegedly beef with other staff members.  We haven't heard him speak to the media since UM lost to Vandy in the NIT. That was almost 300 days ago. A lot has happened over the last 3/4 of the year even before this season started and his heart surgery, including two players getting drafted, his best player transferring, transfers coming in, and transfers not getting in. Not a peep about any of it. Can we get an explanation of what Howard's plan is for this team and the future of the program from someone... anyone... please?

Couple these points with Coach Howard's inability to control his emotions and ability to create drama(Turgeon, Wisconsin slap, and now Sanderson)maybe it's time to reset the program. It feels like it's lost its way and doesn't look like this is the staff to turn it around.

ST3

December 14th, 2023 at 11:54 AM ^

The Sanderson thing feels like it could be strike three, but the pitch was close to the edge of the strike zone so they’ve gone to instant replay and now we’re all waiting for some unseen judge to review the pitch and make a decision.

Have I mentioned I hate instant replay? 

MGlobules

December 14th, 2023 at 12:16 PM ^

I think it was probably Sanderson who was out of line. And the HR move may be an attempt to deflect that. Screaming at a player in front of the other players that he, the coach's son, is emblematic of a culture problem? Totally inappropriate. (And what does it say about Phil and the assistants when Juwan's been gone for months? Everyone of the assistants is worth ten of Sanderson in the real big boy world of basketball.) Hummel was right that Juwan should have called Sanderson, his employee, into his office to ream him. But Juwan didn't create that incident.

And--let's remember, at least those of us interested in what really happened and not just looking for excuses to pile on--both Goodman and Hummel were sympathetic with Jace, who teed off in frustration at his slow recovery. If the call was that Jace was half-assing it and he hasn't been, and Juwan knows it, then having his strength coach tee off on his kid and saying the team has a culture problem, in front of the rest of the squad, that might piss a person off. 

It's Phil who needs to move on, and a clear chain of command re-established.

Those calling for Juwan's head are likely to be disappointed. They're going to give him the year. And after losing multiple NBA players three years running, what he's managed is perfectly okay. They moved heaven and earth last summer, and put together a team with real potential. It's not Juwan's fault they didn't get Love (or TSJ last summer), and this team can be good, anyway.

 

bronxblue

December 14th, 2023 at 12:23 PM ^

Yeah, nobody handled that situation well but screaming at a player that the team sucks and questioning the coaching of both Howard and, by extension, Martelli as the acting HC is pretty bad on Sanderson's behalf.  In a normal world this would have been handled in-house but this current one,  where apparently that weird OSU kid stopped playing NCAA football on his Xbox 360 and instead picked up Athletic Director Simulator 3000, UM has to deal with dumb bullshit like Signgate and this situation where two large humans yelled at each other.

bringthewood

December 14th, 2023 at 1:01 PM ^

I completely agree. As a basketball follower since the 1970's I have seen a ton come and go. Some were better recruiters but outside if Beilein I am not sure I have seen a ton better coaches than Juwan - and he LOVES the University. Johnny Orr did well without a ton of high level talent but Amaker, Frieder? Fisher was able to manage teams of great players.

I always get a sense that Juwan, for whatever reason does not get the love or even the leash that other Michigan greats seem to get. I guess I am surprised at the amount vitriol directed towards Juwan.

We also always seen to measure our coaches vs perfection, instead of the realistic alternative.

jwfsouthpaw

December 14th, 2023 at 2:19 PM ^

This is interesting, because I am surprised at the number of people who seem to be supportive of Howard given the trajectory of the program, especially in light of the on-court and off-court issues that have been become public.

Your comment touches on something that I've been wondering about: Do people's perspectives on Howard depend on whether you watched/were invested in the Fab 5 era? 

snarling wolverine

December 14th, 2023 at 2:29 PM ^

I always get a sense that Juwan, for whatever reason does not get the love or even the leash that other Michigan greats seem to get. I guess I am surprised at the amount vitriol directed towards Juwan.

Did other Michigan greats regularly come close to blows with other coaches?

I've been a Juwan fan, and it brings me no pleasure to say this, but at this point it is difficult to keep justifying his behavior.  The man is 50 years old.  Why is he on the verge of blowing up all the time?

snarling wolverine

December 14th, 2023 at 2:24 PM ^

Here's the thing ... it really is immaterial which guy started it.  What is at issue is that our head coach, who previously needed to be restrained from going after one coach (Turgeon) and then actually slapped another coach (Krabbenhoft), may have once again found himself in a situation that threatened to become violent.

It goes without saying that coaches shouldn't be looking to fight other coaches.  That is not normal sports behavior.  Juwan isn't 18 years old anymore.  Can he control his anger?  It's an open question at this point.   

MGlobules

December 15th, 2023 at 8:07 AM ^

No, it's not immaterial. Juwan is Sanderson's boss. Sanderson called out Juwan and the program in front of the players. And "looking to fight. . ." do you have some inside information that we don't? The story was that they shouted at one another, no?

Let's say you own an auto shop. Your manager comes in one day just before you arrive and starts shouting that the culture stinks. The statement doesn't just implicate you--since you've been gone for three months. . .

How ya feelin' now, boss?

As Robbie Hummel and others have noted, a calm cool and collected Juwan calls Sanderson into his office. And (I'd say) fires him on the spot. Like you would do if you owned the auto shop.

We spend hours around here justifying all kinds of violence when that suits us, sometimes celebrate it. The cries for Juwan's head have a real stink about them.

m9tt

December 14th, 2023 at 12:53 PM ^

The team has continued to degrade and play sloppier, dumb basketball for several years... Whether that's not making free throws or defensive lapses or poor plays/bad looks in key spots out of timeouts... it just speaks to a lack of attention to detail from the coaches, which feels like it rings true for Juwan, who seems more like a program/big picture guy.

 

 

NotADuck

December 14th, 2023 at 10:47 AM ^

I haven't listened to the pod yet so this may be answered, but how is Alabama like 2021 OSU?  Can't be referring to the offense cuz Milroe =/= Stroud.  Are they referring to the defense?  If so, that's a very large indictment on their toughness and character.  That defense was the softest of the soft, especially up front.  I have a hard time believing a Saban-coached team would play like that.

Blau

December 14th, 2023 at 10:50 AM ^

RE: Milroe

Any chance Orji can simulate him enough in bowl prep to give the defense at least a taste of what to expect in the Rose Bowl?

Offensively, can the ground game turn this into a boa constrictor-type squeeze game using 6-7 minute long drives to play keep away from the Bama offense? Keeping the defense fresh should be a priority one would think, no?

Koop

December 14th, 2023 at 12:25 PM ^

RE: Milroe

Any chance Orji can simulate him enough in bowl prep to give the defense at least a taste of what to expect in the Rose Bowl?

For sure, yes. Milroe is talented. He's not Superman--not yet.

Offensively, can the ground game turn this into a boa constrictor-type squeeze game using 6-7 minute long drives to play keep away from the Bama offense? Keeping the defense fresh should be a priority one would think, no?

This season's Alabama is a very tough defense, coupled with an offense that depends on defensive breakdowns and big plays. IMHO, while I am concerned about Milroe as a threat this year's Michigan team hasn't yet seen, I'm more concerned about Alabama's elite talent on defense, particularly at DE and CB.

Of course, Michigan would love to play its usual grinding game on offense and limit Alabama's opportunities on offense. The challenge will be that Michigan's perimeter passing game is going to be severely stressed--Michigan's OTs v Alabama's pass rush and Michigan's WRs v Alabama's secondary. Nick Saban's Cover 3 match rip-liz zone, particularly with Alabama's elite pass rush and corners, is designed to avoid big plays in the passing game, and Michigan's edge pass blocking and WR separation are not strengths at the moment.

One weakness for Cover 3 match--four verticals--is not a high percentage play for this year's Michigan team.

However, other weaknesses--flooding a zone with three receiving options, targeting the flats, exploiting the void left by the run-support safety, and pounding the front eight with diverse run fits, including QB run--all do tend to play to this year's Michigan team strengths. Heavy doses of JJ runs, Donovan Edwards and TE passes, and multiple TE-OL sets are all things that should help. 

Anyway--Bama is good, but (to borrow a phrase from a Certain Team in Ohio), they put their pants on one leg at a time, too. And this Michigan team is #1 for a reason. Go Blue.

InHoc548

December 14th, 2023 at 2:42 PM ^

I'm tired of hearing "Donovan Edwards in the passing game".  He's not in the passing game, and he's not going to be and its because our coaches, who do a pretty good job of talent evaluation, don't think he should be.  He's made a few nice plays in the passing game over a 3 year career against inferior talent.  He's not Christian McCaffery.

smitty1233

December 14th, 2023 at 10:52 AM ^

Please for the love of all football GODS use play action to exploit them rolling the extra guy down. Do not settle for just running into stacked numbers for three yards. 

Defensively mix coverages and bring heat force Milroe to get ball out before he knows what he is looking at and FEAST 

I want to win this so bad! 

dragonchild

December 14th, 2023 at 11:09 AM ^

That's my first guess.  It's too obvious of a problem.

Look at how we fared against elite edges: Our otherwise-okay tackles turned into turnstiles.  The staff probably feels the beat McCarthy & Corum would spend selling run is an extra beat the edges get to arrive, and that's basically all the time JJ has to get the ball out.  Keep in mind, even if they're faking a zone read (meaning JJ's looking ahead not down), Corum can't block while he's pretending to mesh.

The slant might be wide open, but that's immaterial if JJ's on the ground with crushed ribs.

djmagic

December 14th, 2023 at 11:48 AM ^

Your post seems right on...and is what makes me think our use of extra o-linemen (think PSU) combined with the ability to attack the 2nd level with the TE's with passes that come out quick, could be key in their chances for a win.  Do enough of that, and then maybe you find an opportunity to take a shot with PA.

 

GoBlueSMB

December 14th, 2023 at 12:08 PM ^

There are many ways to run "Play Action" so I think that if the staff gets more creative and adds a few wrinkles here and there, they could be fine.

Many will look at PA as the more traditional i-formation/Ace Formation straight drop back after the fake hand off.  However, we can still run a successful PA out of multiple formations, sets AND we can also get JJ on the move:

  • Bootleg or Waggle action that gets JJ moving outside the tackle box.
    • Our tackles, when beaten, usually it's not wide but inside, which if you get JJ on the move in a Bootleg or Waggle action, negates that inside d-linemen.
  • RPO out of Pistol/Shotgun with a layered route tree (short slant/smash/square out, Middle In route and then the deeper post route)

Another thing they should do, is add in those small wrinkles on existing plays, thus the defense can no longer key once the recognize the formation, down and distance:

  • Example:  On the Donovan Edwards half back pass, I believe I've seen it run out of the same formation and Donovan always rolls to the right side of the field.  So for Bama, we can run the same play out of the same formation, but this time, JJ should roll wide left after the pitch and DE should hit JJ on the backside of the play.  That is something I am pretty sure Bama wouldn't expect.
  • When we run Zone / Stretch Right, run that play a few times and then out of the same formation, sneak Barner or Loveland out to the flat, and add in a JJ Bootleg.  Now he has a Run/Pass Option to the backside of the play.

We really don't have to have "New Plays" per say, but add in those wrinkles to existing plays, which IMO has a great impact.

I will also say, JJ has got to keep on the RPO and Arch read at least 1-2 times a quarter to keep the defense honest.   I lost count of how many times the DE keeps crashing down, and JJ just doesn't keep the ball.  Had he kept, he had 6-8 yards in front of him before a single defender was there.  We had a similar problem when Shea was here, so it makes me think it's more of a coaching decision than really giving the QB the free reign to make the decision in game.

Last thing (sorry for the long post, work is DEAD right now), would love to see an old school/traditional screen to the RB instead of these wide side flanker screens.  I think with the speed of the Bama DE's, a more traditional screen could be devastating against them.

ehatch

December 14th, 2023 at 11:00 AM ^

I was kind of thinking Alabama is 2022 PSU. Strong secondary, elite defensive ends, DTs that can be moved. On offense a elite running backs, mobile QB, one outstanding WR, OL that is a bit questionable.