WTKA Roundtable 11/2/2023: Poor Jim McElwain
Things Discussed:
- Rundown of the ton of false reporting. NCAA is in town: False. WSJ says offer rescinded: False. Thamel says all the B10 coaches are repeating Ryan Day's talking points: False. It's one thing to sensationalize—ESPN sensationalizes all the time—but they're getting provable facts wrong.
- Getting it right means calling someone who could tell you your reporting is wrong. Craig Ross: Shares the time Sam had it from someone that Carr was against the Harbaugh hire and he checked on it with Carr who said he loves Jack Harbaugh and he'd be the biggest fan of the hiring of Jim Harbaugh.
- How much does it matter? Run-pass is the best you can tell; it matters, not as much as how the right tackle's foot is aligned, because the RT's half step is more important than hiding your intentions from the defense.
- James Franklin: Nobody needed your signs to know you were running a zone read on 4th & 2 vs OSU in 2018. Nobody said we need to start a federal investigation against Northwestern when they had Michigan's signs that day.
- Schiano's the biggest sign-stealer in the league, because nobody changes their signs. Sam: they're mad about Stalions though. That wasn't Schiano's halftime comment.
- Want to shut them up? Everyone turn in your sign-stealers and go to wristbands and microphones.
- Stalions on CMU's sideline? Possible that McElwain didn't know who Stalions was.
- Seth: Is it possible that CMU borrowed Michigan's sign-stealer to try to beat MSU? Would explain how he got a placard, how he knew how the coaches were dressing, etc. It wouldn't implicate Michigan, because they get no benefit from that, but would fit Stalions's profile.
- Brian: If Michigan's moving ahead with their contract for Harbaugh their internal investigation found no evidence that
- Balance of news is positive; now we're just down to coaches complaining. Do you think these guys are interested parties?
- The check? Ryan Day doesn't care about the check; the commissioner of the league is a TV guy, and a TV guy is not going to devalue the TV conference's most valuable property because they will get sued by Fox and NBC, and guarantee that Michigan will leave this conference for the SEC.
- Guy who said it's a three-touchdown advantage $1 it's Franklin. And you still lose. Ryan Day you still lose too.
- Why aren't OSU/PSU clamoring to play Michigan without their sign-stealer? Brian: "If you actually believe what you're saying you would be, but you don't because it's crazy."
- Maybe you guys need to get good; we're a TV product and you guys are unwatchable. This conference is Michigan and Ohio State and the four teams we're importing because the rest of you are unwatchable.
[Hit the JUMP for the player, and video and stuff]
You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.
Segment 2 is here. You can watch the video here:
The Usual Links:
- Helpful iTunes subscribe link
- General podcast feed link
-
Direct download link (right-click/save as)
- What's with the theme music?
They can't deny Connor Stalions was on their sideline. No but they could claim the coach he's standing next to is a retired police officer from Florida.
November 2nd, 2023 at 3:12 PM ^
"Maybe you guys need to get good; we're a TV product and you guys are unwatchable. This conference is Michigan and Ohio State and the four teams we're importing because the rest of you are unwatchable."
This times a thousand! At first I was so angry about another round of expansion, but after this football season, I'm actually happy about it. It will be nice to watch good football again. These pathetic, conservative, punt-o-saur programs like Iowa, Wisconsin, and Minnesota are a joke, and they're supposed to be towards the top of the league. Big 10 football is nearly dead outside of M and OSU, so at least bringing in these new teams will bring some excitement back!
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:01 PM ^
Yes, yes. This is the best Michigan team, maybe in my lifetime, and rather than get to see them put that to the test, they've just been stuck with beating up grade schoolers for their lunch money. I can't understand how the rest of the B1G is fielding such poor football teams given the amount of $$ the conference generates.
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:22 PM ^
On the other hand, given Michigan's schedule next year, why would McCarthy stay in school? The increased chances of getting injured when the Wolverines may play five really good teams in the regular season could affect his draft position. If he does leave, it's possible that the chances of going to the playoff probably leave with him, unless Michigan picks up somebody great in the portal.
November 2nd, 2023 at 10:46 PM ^
OMG. Sam chuckling during this monologue is maybe my favorite moment of this “scandal” so far. Great stuff everyone!
November 2nd, 2023 at 3:12 PM ^
I think Seth's take on Stallion and CMU is brilliant! It may not be right in the end, but it does make total sense.
November 2nd, 2023 at 3:21 PM ^
Yes, it's hard to believe that Stallions could have sneaked in and stood so close to the action and no one asked him who he was. He's carrying a clipboard in one picture. Was that a prop, or was he reviewing something? CMU is just going to say they don't know who the guy was. Stallions can deny it was him since his career on the sidelines is over anyway.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:03 PM ^
To be fair, if I'm sneaking in anywhere I'm gonna bring a clipboard!
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:16 PM ^
That is what I thought initially... was shocked it had never crossed Sam's mind until then...
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:20 PM ^
I hope McElwain paid him in cash.... :-)
November 2nd, 2023 at 7:03 PM ^
I heard he just gave him an 8×10 glossy autographed picture with him and his shark lover.
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:59 PM ^
CMU must have been doing something wrong because it looks like they lost that game 31-7 (???).
November 3rd, 2023 at 10:57 AM ^
Yes, but as we know, if they didn't have access to Michigan's sign stealers, they would have gotten 3 fewer touchdowns for a score of negative 14. :)
November 2nd, 2023 at 3:14 PM ^
Wanted to add this to the comments as its one of the few instances of an active coach actually putting their name to criticism (while also demonstrating why its absurd):
Matt Rhule says two things that stand out as absurd. The first:
"It’s one thing when it’s recruiting"
So its not about the rules, its just about this particular rule (which may or may not have been broken anyway). I give him props for honesty, but this is why every other coach is speaking anonymously: They don't care about the rules and don't want anyone looking to closely into practices at their own program. If Nebraska were actually good, I'd say someone should start digging into their recruiting department and see what comes up.
“I’ll tell you this, players go out there and they get hurt, and if I ever knew what plays you were running and my guys were running to the ball before the snap, I don’t know that that’s fair to the health and safety of our players or anything,” Rhule said. “So I certainly hope it’s not what everyone says it is. But I don’t know, so I can’t comment on that specifically.”
...What? By this logic why should scouting or even blitzing be allowed, let alone sign-stealing in any capacity?
November 2nd, 2023 at 3:31 PM ^
What I don't get here is that he seems to be arguing against the idea of sign stealing totally, which is, for the hundredth time, completely legal by NCAA rules.
I get coaches being mad about this but I also feel like what they're mostly doing is just playing to their bases in public and better be careful, say, other sign stealers on other teams aren't named.
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:05 PM ^
Yea this. I don't venture too far out reading nor listening to other media entities but I do enjoy the Lebetard show/crew. They've naturally talked about this somewhat and they also seem to fail to realize the actual, basic "sign stealing" isn't illegal. I half don't blame them, as there has been a lot to unpack with this ordeal and we've all learned on the job what the rules are (or are not).
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:11 PM ^
Well I'll be. The "health and safety" angle has started to spread its wings. MSU, CFB Nerds, and now finally Rhule, which is the first time we have an actual real live coach saying it.
I think this won't be the last we hear of this.
I'm going to see if I can find out any injuries Nebraska suffered from the Michigan game.
Update: From what I can tell, they suffered one injury during the Michigan game. A defensive back. I don't think a defensive player injury fits with the narrative Rhule was going for. So, perhaps this is proof that we didn't even steal any signs, since no one on Nebraska's offense got hurt.
November 2nd, 2023 at 5:17 PM ^
The whole "it's different from blatantly breaking the rules in recruiting, which everyone does" line of thinking has shown up a couple times, and it's always unbelievable to me. Like, the only way that people routinely breaking the rules all over the place is different is because you're used to it. They're still breaking tons of rules, in every direction, with no remorse.
"The only moral cheating is the cheating that I routinely do" sure is one hell of an argument.
November 2nd, 2023 at 5:48 PM ^
I don't get the idea of "it's one thing if it's recruiting". So schools can stockpile 5* talent using illegal methods and that's fine, but we all have the vapors because a low level staffer pushed the boundaries of an NCAA methods rule to steal signals (which, I feel must be emphasized every time it is brought up, is a completely legal and common practice in college football).
I don't get it. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills on how many people are coming out and saying this is Very Serious™. If it is a proven violation of rules, hand down some punishments, probations, fines, even suspensions...whatever. The idea that Michigan must be summarily and immediately punished with DC/OC/HC show causes, vacating wins, postseason bans for something that sits firmly in the grey area and has not been 100% proven yet is so fucking crazy to me (the CMU thing is the most damnig, but nobody has proven that it is actually him...which feels quite important here). Even if you prove Stalions has violated rules, you still gotta actually pin it on other people in the Michigan program to go scorched earth on punishment. And despite daily drumming from this story, not one shred of evidence has directly connected Stalions' potential rules violations with anyone above him knowing and accepting or even directing him to do it. That may in and of itself constitute a violation to Harbaugh given the new rule that NCAA implemented, but it sure doesn't feel like it's worth the level of drastic punishments some want to see.
They worry about the sanctity of the games and feel bad about the team that might get left out for the cheating cheaters who cheated the worst cheating of all the cheating. ...but what about the players on Michigan who are working their ass off to win a championship? Do they not matter?
November 3rd, 2023 at 10:13 AM ^
This. I saw this yesterday and I just can't wrap my head around it. While I applaud Brando for giving a tepid call-out of the media, there's one thing that just sticks in my craw. His whole notion of it's different than the Cam Newton situation because "[Cam was] not an issue of competitive advantage". WHAT? If he was ineligible, how does having the Heisman winner--who shouldn't be playing because he is in fact ineligible--not relate to a competitive advantage? It totally smacks of the idea that some rules are being broken by everyone and no one really cares, but other rules are somehow sacrosanct because INTEGRITY OF THE GAME. I just don't get it.
November 2nd, 2023 at 3:17 PM ^
Maybe you guys need to get good; we're a TV product and you guys are unwatchable. This conference is Michigan and Ohio State and the four teams we're importing because the rest of you are unwatchable.
Ain't that the truth. B1G football is consistently a bad product, outside of the top two. What will everybody from MSU through Northwestern do if nothing happens to UM? Leave? Go form a super conference with the Big 12? Leave and watch a 40 team super league form in your wake.
November 2nd, 2023 at 3:43 PM ^
Sharkey and Hutch?
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:03 PM ^
He's the only one on the boat and he and the shark left the dock like that. Tinder is weird.
November 2nd, 2023 at 3:47 PM ^
In ESPN's article on the Big Ten coaches meeting, their conversation is quoted. A call with just the coaches and the commissioner of the Big Ten. They revealed that Harbaugh left the call so that the rest of them could discuss this. Who's giving this up to Thamel? Who's leaking this? If I'm Michigan, and the NCAA tries to use us an example, I go scorched earth on everyone in the conference. I use them as an example. I reveal all the secrets and name all the sign stealers.
November 2nd, 2023 at 3:58 PM ^
I've been pretty chill about the "Warde should do this..." stuff. But this is a hand deliver gift to call out HQ and the member institutions. The only way I'm not doing this is if I've been assured by the conference that this is a nothingcheeseburger.
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:17 PM ^
One of the quotes: "What are we waiting for? We know what happened." Really? Well if they know what happened, let's hear it. I want details, names, dates, photos, etc. If anyone is calling for our punishment in an official setting, and they're basing that on speculation, they need to be named and called out.
November 3rd, 2023 at 6:17 AM ^
I question this too. Do these head coaches really have 90 minutes to sit on the phone and discuss this nonsense?
November 3rd, 2023 at 10:16 AM ^
And did they all just ignore the elephant in the room that:
1. They all have sign stealers too, and
2. Wristbands are literally $10 on Amazon?
Was there just an implied understanding that they're all 10-ply soft?
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:00 PM ^
Shares the time Sam had it from someone that Carr was against the Harbaugh hire and he checked on it with Carr who said he loves Jack Harbaugh and he'd be the biggest fan of the hiring of Jim Harbaugh.
There have been posters on this board who have made that claim about Carr, including recently. I don't know where they get that from. The 2007 comments?
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:07 PM ^
I got it from MGoBlog, verified by you, as both had these words in your messages, and I quote:
"Carr was against the Harbaugh hire."
NOW, I suppose you're going to play the out-of-context card...
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:07 PM ^
Re: the supposed 3 touchdown advantage. If you spotted every opponent this year 21 points, Michigan's still 8-0.
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:09 PM ^
It was Franklin who said that, right? He's probably hoping PSU gets beat by less than 21 points. Then he'll be QEDing all over the place.
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:26 PM ^
But we won't have Penn State's signs. Unless he says that he never changed them over the last month, even after all of this. Then he looks like an idiot to his own program.
James, some helpful advice navigating these tricky waters: Shut up.
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:23 PM ^
It's a three touchdown advantage if you are stupid enough to not change your signs.
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:29 PM ^
Yah, but not changing signs is a handy excuse for losing.
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:35 PM ^
Serious question, that none of us know the answer to. Before we suspended Stalions, did we make sure we had whatever information on signs he had already collected so we could still access it? Or do we not really care because we're assuming most teams will change things up now. And also, do we have a backup signs guy who is not suspended?
November 2nd, 2023 at 5:56 PM ^
But you don't understand, that is HARD and UNFAIR, it takes TIME to do that.
-vast majority of CFB subreddit right now, mostly OSU flairs.
Like they really embraced the "charmin soft" mentality of their coach, it's embarassing. A month isn't enough time for you guys to prepare to work around an issue that is no longer relevant against your biggest rival and most threatening opponent? Fucking really?
November 2nd, 2023 at 7:40 PM ^
I don't buy this excuse at all.
You have to be prepared for the fact that your signs might be stolen during a game. So the idea that you are simply powerless is ridiculous.
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:31 PM ^
Wait did someone say sign stealing a 21 point advantage? Or that the in-person scouting is worth 21 points?
Because everyone is stealing signs. So in-person is probably worth about a FG at best.
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:27 PM ^
How much does it matter? Run-pass is the best you can tell; it matters, not as much as how the right tackle's foot is aligned, because the RT's half step is more important than hiding your intentions from the defense.
I have heard Jansen or Skene or other fairly large human beings point out time and again 'see where his back foot is, that's why he got beat on that play'.
I swear they need to go out against Purdue with signs that say Running Play, Obvious Passing Play, RPO, and one for for later in the game that says 'We're Running Right, try to stop us'. Maybe one that says 'don't worry about the qb, he can't throw the long ball' and 'no need to cover Wilson, he's slow and can't catch'. I'd add one for 'big drum play', just to be safe.
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:31 PM ^
Are we still defending that photo? Why? Who is saying that’s real? What is happening?
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:48 PM ^
Found the sound bite that Ira referenced re: (wrt) Finebaum:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcIXnJMrrjo
It is such a 180 that it really does make you wonder if ESPN has actually has gone around to their people to strongly encourage--or directly demand--that they take a certain position on this.
I don't really think that's the case, but I also don't really think Finebaum changed his mind this dramatically based on literally no new allegations. Just to recap, things that have come out that made Finebaum change his mind:
- Stalions kept his files on a computer drive (we have no clue who looked at the files).
- Stalions was POSSIBLY at the CMU-MSU game. Which isn't materially different than sending a rando to go (if you aren't arguing gray area, which Michigan wasn't).
Uh, that's it. That's literally it.
I am kind of assuming he just saw which way the wind was blowing and got on board rather than need to be told. His only regret is he didn't realize that's where it was going to be headed in the first place.
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:55 PM ^
I am increasingly aware that the line between WWE and "real" sports is thinner than one would hope.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:03 PM ^
ESPN has literally embraced WWE in an effort to improve its deteriorating revenue.
November 2nd, 2023 at 5:06 PM ^
ESPN lost out on the Big Ten pie. They have a financial interest to see the conference's biggest brand (that's right) smeared. Less eyes and a crappy Big Ten and more eyes on their SEC.
November 2nd, 2023 at 5:15 PM ^
I don't disagree but I feel it will backfire. Who's not going to want to watch Michigan-PSU or Michigan-OSU now?
November 2nd, 2023 at 6:22 PM ^
Not so much for this year, agree. But if the program gets nuked the way ESPN is hoping and Harbaugh is gone, then the Big Ten will definitely be a weaker draw for viewers.
November 3rd, 2023 at 1:00 PM ^
I don't think that's it. I think what happened here is that there is a big segment - Finebaum and others - who were CONVINCED that the CFP would punish Michigan and that the actual position that they (Finebaum, etc. that they were outraged by this) would be covered by that punishment. In other words, they could stay above the fray. But then, when that punishment didn't come, it smoked out their real positions all along and they lost their minds. I am truly convinced that's what happened with these folks, because you're completely right about what (hasn't) changed between position A and position B.
November 2nd, 2023 at 7:05 PM ^
I'd only 100% believe it was Stalions if he was wearing Michigan apparel. Dudes not that bright.
November 2nd, 2023 at 7:14 PM ^
If we can use A.I. and analytics to help develop game plans what use are signals. It 2023 the use of signals seems archaic and unnecessary, but I guess if you have a deep operative like we do you really get a leg up on the opposition.
Also, on the Matt Rhule subject. Didn't he just come from the NFL? Where advanced scouting is 100% legal. Is that why he left because his PTSD from so many of his players dying or getting injured because the other team did their job. Wow he's a great pick Nebraska. Bring back Pelini he wasn't such a wuss.
Comments