Roster Set, Let's Talk Minutes: Nominal Frontcourt Comment Count

Brian

Previously: nominal backcourt

"Power" Forward

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[Eric Upchurch]

Starter: Zak Irvin (Jr.)
Backups: Kam Chatman (So.), DJ Wilson (Fr.*), Moritz Wagner (Fr.)

On a roster that is suddenly brimming with depth this is the spot at which minutes are tightest. The competition here is not really between Irvin and the guys listed as backups—Irvin's playing 30+ minutes guaranteed—but between Kam Chatman, DJ Wilson, Moritz Wagner, and the two guys we covered as "small" forwards. There's about 50 minutes to divide up between the five players.

This preview projects that the bulk of those minutes go to Aubrey Dawkins and Duncan Robinson. Chatman shot 36/26 last year, Wilson is coming off a redshirt after looking pretty bad in 26 minutes before his injury, and Wagner is physically reminiscent of a freshman Caris LeVert. Dawkins was already a pretty good Big Ten player last year and is likely to improve; Robinson is shooting is shooting is shooting on a John Beilein team. They're getting minutes. These guys will get the squeeze.

It is reasonable to expect that one of the three candidates here steps forwards to become a quality bench player. Who that will be is anyone's guess. Chatman settled down late in the year, using his handle and passing ability to create some baskets. The coaches have been talking up Wilson's "productive" redshirt year… and I've also heard that he stepped it up in a big way after Wagner came in on an official visit and took it to him.

A redshirt for someone seems like a good idea. That would probably be Wagner… if he's not clearly better. Which is a possibility. I just don't know, man.

What I do know: Zak Irvin's going to be on the court a lot. Last year we asked him to become a "threes AND" guy. Progress in that department was dubious at best until a late surge forced upon him by the injury issues. Alex covered his remarkable uptick in things other than shots:

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Even on the post-apocalypse roster it took several games for Irvin to grok the fact that he had to be Nik Stauskas now. When he did grasp it, he turned in the finest stretch of his Michigan career by some distance. It felt like he had grasped not only his role but how to create shots in the Beilein offense. While his role should be less prominent on next year's roster if only because he's no longer Dion Harris, the efficiency of possessions he uses promises to shoot up.

Irvin will be a big deal for other things, as well. He's going to be drawing guys Caleb Swanigan at (apparently) Purdue. Nigel Hayes at Wisconsin. And so forth and so on. Michigan has never been particularly good defensively at the 4 because of the guys they run out there at the spot; Irvin seems better able to hack it than just about anyone Beilein has had at Michigan. Glenn Robinson was pretty good as a sophomore. Other than that…? If Irvin can rebound at the clip he did late in the year and prove something other than weak spot on D, Michigan will benefit greatly.

Minute projection: Irvin 30, Miscellaneous 10.

[After the JUMP: Doyle, rebounding philosophies, and so forth.]

Center

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AAHHHHH I WILL SWEAT ON YOU [Bryan Fuller]

Starter: Ricky Doyle (So.)
Backups: Mark Donnal (So.*), DJ Wilson (Fr.*)

When Ricky Doyle committed to Michigan, he was expecting to redshirt. When Doyle watched Michigan play Kentucky in the elite eight as a high school senior, he was expecting to redshirt. By the time he arrived in Ann Arbor he was the starter by default after Horford's transfer and the NCAA's trolling of Mitch McGary.

All things considered, he did pretty well with the accelerated timeline. Against Syracuse Doyle spurred the first thousand of a million different internet dudes exclaiming "Doyle Rules." I had no idea what you were talking, about, internet, until I Googled it ten seconds ago. I am very disappoint, internet. I suppose some of you were ten when any given Adam Sandler movie came out. You are grudgingly excused. Anyone approximately my age has some explaining to do.

Anyway, against Syracuse Doyle burst onto the scene with a series of late buckets and critical offensive rebounds. That game is his season in 24 minutes: efficient, slightly low-usage shooting, a lot of offensive rebounds (5!), not many defensive rebounds (1). That pattern continued for the bulk of the year. He shot a Morgan-esque 61% from the floor, had an excellent OREB rate (10.4%), and sucked in DREBs like Nnanna Egwu. This is to say "did not suck in DREBs at all."

Some of this was gameplan. Michigan bigs spent the year boxing out to the exclusion of all else, including grabbing the ball. That was what paved the way for things like "six-foot-nothing point guard cracks the Kenpom DREB leaderboard." Meanwhile Michigan's overall DREB rate was almost identical to last year's. They did drop from 7th to 13th in the league, but a lot of that was due to the injuries. Spike, MAAR, and Dawkins, the main playing-time beneficiaries, were all major downgrades on Walton, LeVert, and Chatman.

I'd be really interested to know if there was much difference in team rebounding between Doyle and Bielfeldt. Bielfeldt's individual numbers were way better than Doyle, but when he got big minutes things didn't go well on the boards:

  • MSU: 33 minutes, 37% opponent OREB rate
  • Iowa: 20 minutes, 43% OREB
  • Illinois: 29 minutes, 32% OREB
  • also Illinois: 31 minutes, 34% OREB
  • Wisconsin: 21 minutes, 44% OREB

Michigan also got blown out in that department when Bielfeldt didn't play much, but it didn't seem like he was much of a solution despite his gaudy tempo-free stats.

This rather long aside is an attempt to explain that I didn't feel like Doyle's unimpressive DREB numbers had much impact on Michigan's ability to win games. (I've been skeptical about individual rebounding stats meaning much ever since I looked at the Pistons in the immediate aftermath of Ben Wallace's departure and their rebounding stats didn't change at all.) It's a common assertion in the basketball stats community that defensive rebounding is a team activity while offensive rebounding is an individual skill.

If that's true, then Doyle's promising start on OREBs is more important than the meh DREBs. And the rest of his stats are similarly enticing. Amongst players with qualifying minutes he led the team in ORTG thanks to that shooting percentage and an absolutely-terrific-for-a-post 12.0 TO rate. He drew a ton of fouls for a Beilein player, and committed them at a reasonable-for-a-post 4.0 per 40. The context there helps, as well: Michigan had fewer free pick-and-roll dunks than they had at any time in the last few years; Doyle got some of that offense by posting up gentlemen. He had the occasional take that cocked eyebrows across Michigan's fanbase: remember that time he clubberated Frank Kaminsky?

Doyle does have to get much better with his hands. Too many balls doinked off them this year, contributing to that DREB rate and limiting his usage somewhat. When that happens to bigs it's often the case that their hands are not quite as oversized as the rest of their body and there's not much you can do about it. I'm not sure if that's what's going on with Doyle or not, but I have the feeling that'll be a long-term frustration.

Despite that I'm extremely high on him as the starting center. His minutes last year were limited thanks to endurance. He was injured in preseason and then came down with a strange long-lasting bug midseason; half the time he came out it seemed clear that he was just exhausted. Some better luck and a summer at Camp Sanderson should repair that problem; reasonable advancements in all the departments freshman bigs usually struggle in should mean Michigan has a find in Doyle.

A lot rests on that since Mark Donnal was clearly overwhelmed a year ago. Donnal was a massive liability on defense, committer of 6.4(!) fouls per 40 and target of all teams when he entered the game. A little bit of outside shooting could not make up for that.

There are things that seem like they can get fixed and things that do not seem like they can get fixed, and Donnal's issues shaded towards the latter. Outside of five stars, freshman bigs are like freshman offensive linemen—almost always terrible—but Donnal had the benefit of a redshirt year to attempt to mitigate some of his issues and didn't come out of it able to check many folks. Despite the fact Doyle and Donnal are listed at the same height and just five pounds different on the roster, Donnal looks and feels small compared to his compatriot. That probably won't change either.

Donnal can hypothetically pull opposing centers to the perimeter. He shot 37% from three last year—the problem is he averaged well under one attempt per game. His best path to a significant role is to get a lot better on D and to make the pick and pop game a major factor. I think he's been passed for good.

Michigan has repeatedly mentioned that they don't see DJ Wilson as a center, long-term. Short-term, they appear to be dealing with the fact that they might be playing a stick insect at the five when the situation dictates it. (That situation: foul trouble.) Wilson does have one major asset as a post: his pogo stick legs and long arms give him a shot-altering potential that nobody else on the roster has. Bacari Alexander referenced Evan Smotrycz as a comparison for Wilson's role this year, and that's on point: he's a four. You'll see him at center a bit because your third center plays no matter who you are.

Minute projection: Doyle 25, Donnal 10, Wilson 5.

Comments

Zok

May 8th, 2015 at 12:20 PM ^

Coach B won't ever get stud 5's and thats ok bc you can coach up solid players into good college 5's. IMO, its the 4 spot that we are missing from becoming elite vs very good.

Unless of course they can catch lightening in a bottle again with the National Player of the Year at PG combined it with an NBA "4" playing at our 5 spot...which I don't see happening but once every 7-8yrs if we are lucky.

We are just going to get killed on the boards again. We will be extremely fun to watch on offense (be top 5 in offense nationally probably) but in the tourney we will run into a bigger team and likely lose in sweet 16 or elite 8 (depending on draw).

 

 

 

 

 

Zok

May 8th, 2015 at 3:39 PM ^

not NPOY but players as good as Burke (NPOY is a vote so anything can happen). 1st RD NBA PG's. I think we can expect that more than most teams based on Coach B and Co's track record.

Thats not enough though bc the NCAA Elite do that too...plus have NBA bigs.

Hail-Storm

May 8th, 2015 at 2:52 PM ^

Beilein's system plays the 3 and 4 similarly on offense.  This means those players are going to be similar, longer, but not necessarily big enough to pound down low. This does lead to a 4 having to take on bigger guys, but it also allows Michigan to pull the opposing 4 out on offense to open up the lane for pick and rolls and baseline cuts. 

Yes this leads to more rebounds by other teams, but Beilein's teams make up for this with a very low turnover rate.  Teams also tend to back off on OReb against Michigan to get back on defense. 

The bulls ran a small line up in the 90s and dominated.  Other teams tried to replicate, but couldn't. It's more important to get the other team to replicate and account for your lineup, than for you to try to replicate their lineup. 

Zok

May 8th, 2015 at 3:35 PM ^

Bulls also had a guy named MJ...the GOAT and some defensive stopper named Pippen. Unless you see those two rolling through the door I'm not sure that is the best approach.

  • To win in the tournament you need great guard play -  check, will always be check with Coach B.

 

  • Bigs that can rebound for you, limit the other teams possessions (defense doesn't stop until you actually get the D Reb). If we can actually get D Reb's we can then let our guard play (see above) win the game. - not check

 

I mean with Trey Burke and Co we had the best offense in the country and a very solid college Big in Morgan and  NBA talent at the 5 in McGary. We literally cannot do better than #1 O efficiency. It's not possible. So why not look at the other side of the ball where we are medicore. Why as the #1 O in the country to do more??? I mean Oregon football has never won a title for all of their numbers on O....

BTW, IMO you can't completely make up for getting killed on the glass with a low TO. It helps, heck it's required when we get dominated so much on the boards but it doesn't cancel out the fact that we give the other teams more possessions...we will continue to lose to the ELITE when we do so.

Remember our Kentucky game???

They had 17 O Rebs to our 10 D Rebs (out rebounded by 11 total ). They won the game by 3. You telling me the rebounding wasn't the difference.  We won TO battle by +4. We were fortunate to get by Tennessee that year (another huge team) as well. We barely beat UT despite shooting 55/55 from FG/3pt....UM puts too much pressure on the O.

Remember Louisvile?

Louisville had 15 O Rebs (UM had 7) - outrebounded UM by 5 otal. They are great at D so actually won the TO battle by 3+. That right there is 8 extra possessions and won by 6 points...

Sure when we are clicking on all cylinders UM can beat anyone in one game. But to beat 2-3 Elite teams in a row that will have NBA size at least the 4 spot and/or the 5 PLUS their own great guard play (ACC-elite guard play is as good as ours and they have NBA 4's on their team) its a tall order.

I'm not saying UM needs to scrap its philiopshy and turn into MSU or UL. I just think that if our 4 could defend better (really just get D rebs) and still be able to shoot well enough for spacing on O UM would make it to the top of the mountain.

 

 

 

Lanknows

May 8th, 2015 at 6:46 PM ^

If Beilein can land a kind who has the requisite athleticism/shooting to fit in the Beilein system, while also being a long defensive factor it would be a huge impact.  I think Beilein can make his offensive system flow with people like Spike.  The offense is a machine.  But for defensive reasons, Michigan needs to recruit talent and length.  Now, obviously 6'10 guys with guard skills are wanted by everyone, so it's easier said than done.  But one of these days Michigan will land a Kevin Looney or develop a better version of Evan Smotrycz...perhaps Wagner or Wilson can be that guy.

Hail-Storm

May 8th, 2015 at 8:00 PM ^

Would bring MJ comment. But my point was that during their dominance it was a team effort and ran a small lineup. I just don't see many players that fit your criteria here. Great outside shooters who also have the athleticism to cut baseline and muscle to grab rebounds. Yes there may be a one and done occasionally available, but not often enough to change the offensive efficiency. I agree that the games you mention were tough based on rebounds, however, Kentucky had 7 NBA guys and we lost by 3. I the Louisville game had a few questionable calls and Louisville had sliced through all the other teams in the tournament. I'm just saying, close losses and close wins in the tournament are just the reality of the sport. I just don't think the 4 you want exists and think the offensive efficiency and turnovers make up for the rebounding disparity.

funkywolve

May 11th, 2015 at 10:41 AM ^

Were those Bull's lineups really that small?

Their first run of 3 straight championships had lots of height.  Cartwright was 7'1", Grant was 6'10", Perdue was 7', Scot Williams was 6'10" and Stacey King was 6'11".  Pippen was 6'8".

Even their 2nd run of 3 straight championships had a good amount of height: James Edwards was 7', Longley was 7'2", Salley was 6'11".  Heck, Kukoc was 6'10".  Rodman might only be listed as 6'7" but he was one of the best rebounders and defenders in the game.

umumum

May 8th, 2015 at 12:33 PM ^

Someone needs to explain to me why Wagner is a red-shirt candidate.  Unlike American players, Wagner has the option of simply staying in Europe and actually playing.  He could then come over next year.  I will be surprised if he red-shirts--with an injury caveat.  I also suspect that Wagner may not be planning on staying 4 years--though that might not be a reasonable plan for him.

Erik_in_Dayton

May 8th, 2015 at 12:36 PM ^

He's the one guy who I think I'm more optimistic about for 2016 than the average Mgblogger.  My guess is that the kid is ready to contribue right out of the gate.  He knows what it is to play against high-level competition, and I assume he would have stayed in Germany if he wasn't ready to go up against D1 players.

Lanknows

May 8th, 2015 at 3:50 PM ^

It's guesswork at this point, but if I had to bet on it, I'd say Wagner plays more than MAAR, Chatman, Robinson, Wilson, etc.

Irvin and Dawkins are very good but similar players. Wagner presents a different look, more size, while also potentially bringing a high enough skillset to set himself apart from the other bench guys.

BigHouseBoyz

May 9th, 2015 at 1:32 PM ^

IMHO JB will start the season with Irvin @ 4, but with the hope of more development of Wagner, Robinson, Wilson, Donnal for the 4.  Irvin will then be able to play more or exclusively at the 3, which is his natural position.

This will give more length on D, better DREB, create matchup problems for opponents, but still have D ability & size to contend with other power 4s in our conference and tournament.

With continued ball handling development and driving ability of Dawkins and Irvin, they could even play together as the 2/3.

I am excited for this team because JB has a tremendous amount of flexibility in his line up, JB does a great job in developing guys through out the year, and we will be able to match up with those elite teams in the tourney better.

champswest

May 8th, 2015 at 3:56 PM ^

Red shirting these days. If guys are good enough, they don't stay around for 5 years and if they are average they don't get invited back for the fifth year. Then you have cases like LeVert and Dakich that waste a half year red shirting and then end up burning it.

funkywolve

May 8th, 2015 at 12:48 PM ^

Maybe I'm being a bit to pessimistic but until I see Robinson on game days, I'm not completely buying the hype.  Donnal was getting a good bit of hype during his redshirt freshmen year, and then left me scratching my head this past year.

AC1997

May 8th, 2015 at 1:21 PM ^

I think he is going to play and will have a few games where he is hot and will play solid minutes. Here is my reasoning.... Even if you assume his D3 year was a glorified high school prep year, his stats were very, very good. Besides that fact, his D3 year was in a similar system, he is 6'8", and he got to learn a year on the bench. I think he is closer to a freshman Irvin than he is bench warmer Vogrich.

wile_e8

May 8th, 2015 at 1:36 PM ^

There are a lot of annoying things about the internet, but my personal pet peeve is the need to shame anyone who likes something besides the 5 movies/TV shows/beers/restaurants Twitter has decided don't suck. Just, why?

PS: Brian, does this mean you've been on the internet for all these years and had no idea where this meme comes from?

PPS: A Royal Red Robin Burger is delicious. COME AT ME!

93Grad

May 8th, 2015 at 2:23 PM ^

and still I don't get the Billy Madison hate.  That and Happy Gilmore were solid comedies.  The rest of his fims, not so much but those two are classics.

champswest

May 8th, 2015 at 12:58 PM ^

by player, but it is usually a futile pursuit. That is especially true this year. Lots os capable players and several guys who can play more than one position. Part of the logjam at the 4 is having Irvin listed there. I am not convinced that Zak will play a lot there when you have Chatman, Wagner and Wilcox waiting in the wings. I would prefer Irvin/Dawkins/Robinson at the 3 and Chatman/Wagner/Wilcox at the 4 with Doyle/Donnal/Wilson at the 5. But who knows at this point?

corundum

May 8th, 2015 at 2:27 PM ^

I actually see his point. Start the following with Spike backing up Walton, Dawkins backing up both LeVert and Irvin, the three-headed sharetime at the 4, and Donnal and Wilson backing up Doyle. Provides a much bigger lineup while still giving Dawkins 20+ minutes a game. MAAR can either redshirt or play spot minutes when needed. Walton LeVert Irvin Chatman/Robinson/Wagner Doyle

Qmatic

May 8th, 2015 at 2:31 PM ^

Ideally I actually would. Chatman is taller/longer and has shown he can rebound better than Dawkins. Chatman showed great flashes towards the end of the season, and I hope he makes the leap so he can start at the 4. That leaves Dawkins as a lethal 6th man who can spell the starting 2-4.



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PburgGoBlue

May 8th, 2015 at 2:07 PM ^

My question is why does it seem like we get outrebounded every year on the Defensive end? Is it our Def lineup, lack of Athleticism? I don't get it, does it compare to recovering fumbles? Sometimes the ball seems to bounce right to the O-rebounder. 

JLi5

May 8th, 2015 at 2:17 PM ^

I've heard Brian mention the catching issue a lot and his skepticism for improvement.  I think a large element of catching the basketball, especially on quick actions like cuts or rolls to the basket, or fast breaks (ie. not a simple post-up), has more to do with catching up to the speed of the game and anticipation.  The gaps close faster, the speed of the game is quicker, and the point guards are seeing the action open up with even greater anticipation.

It's similar to a receiver in football coming out of his cut to see the ball already there.  It's more about anticipating the play and having your hands ready than any physical talent.  In that regard, I do think there is a good chance Doyle's hands improve significantly over the offseason (of course, some guys just have stone hands).

Lanknows

May 8th, 2015 at 4:08 PM ^

Interesting defense of Doyle, and there is very likely something to it.... but it's not very consistent with the frequent criticism's for GR3.  To me that same "too busy boxing out to get rebounds" defense applies far more to the Beilein 4 than the Beilein 5.

So - why such a defense/excuse-making for Doyle but not GR3?

My general opinion on these narratives is that when they are physically unimpressive white guys (Spike, Nik, Zack, Doyle) the fanbase often accepts their limitations/weaknesses or glorifies their production by framing the issue relative to expectations.  Meanwhile, guys like Caris, Zak, GR3, get a lot of negativity thrown their way.  Even Morgan came in for heat because he wasn't blocking shots or finishing at a high enough rate prior to his senior year. It was only when he turned into an absolutely flawless role player that he was truely embraced by the fanbase.

 

Erik_in_Dayton

May 8th, 2015 at 5:15 PM ^

It feels like I've been beating this drum a lot, but Doyle's rebounding was turrible.  His TR%  was tied for the worst among Beilein's Michigan centers per Alex's post the other day.  And his rebounds per 40 minutes were only 0.3 higher than Chatman's. 

I also think there is something to Brian's point about boxing out, but there is only so much you can do to dress up Doyle's lackluster performance.

Lanknows

May 8th, 2015 at 6:22 PM ^

It's valid to say both -  that raw rebounding numbers aren't everything AND that Doyle struggled last season.  Brian did above, and I would agree with both.  It's just curious to me that it's only being applied in this case.  It's definitely not a scheme thing, as nearly every other Beilein 5 had a better rebound rate.  I guess I'm just commenting on some persistent inconsistencies/favoritism. Saw some of the same stuff for Spike last year -- of course he's going to struggle on D, look how tall he is -- (completely ignoring that Walton and Trey aren't exactly Magic Johnson).  Nik's defensive problems were almost never mentioned, but Caris gets picked on over and over for this.

I like Doyle, a lot, but he needs to improve a lot for MIchigan to be a top 10 team like we all hope they can be. 

In reply to by Lanknows

Rabbit21

May 9th, 2015 at 5:33 PM ^

Niks defensive weaknesses were constantly mentioned, but he was a sublime offensive player that Caris has not yet become. Don't think that's entirely fair.

Totally2

May 8th, 2015 at 4:15 PM ^

is stupid?

what about sometimes going long & athletic with; or sometimes zone with:

Pt. LaV; 2 Zak; 3 Dawk/Chat; 4 Wilson; 5 Doyle