Recruitin' Mailbag: Class Size, Camp Offers, Talent In Ohio Comment Count

Ace

Hello, I'm back, and very thankful to have missed the dumbest week of the offseason thus far. The long-promised recruiting mailbag is here, and I'll have a recruiting roundup tomorrow once I've caught up.


There may be in-class attrition. It probably won't include Mike Onwenu. [Rapai]

At long last, we've gone long enough—hold on...

[checks Twitter]
[checks three different message boards]
[checks Twitter again]

...we've gone long enough without a commitment for me to put together the recruiting mailbag I promised weeks ago.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. Michigan already sits at 21 commits in the class and they have several positions of need yet to fill: wide receiver, tight end, defensive tackle, BUCK linebacker, cornerback, probably one more offensive lineman, and maybe an additional inside linebacker. They may even take a kicker, though Quinn Nordin's recruitment is trending towards Penn State. That's seven or so more potential spots. If they find a way to make the numbers work, this class could conceivably reach 28 players, with the coaches backdating a few early enrollees to fit under the yearly cap of 25.

Can Michigan make this work without oversigning? I think so. Brian covered part of the numbers outlook in his recent mailbag, noting two areas where scholarships should open up:

  • There are 4-6 current redshirt juniors who are candidates for unrenewed fifth years. They'll have spent four years in the program and will leave with degrees in hand.
  • There are a couple potential medical redshirts, not including the now known to the public effort to get Ondre Pipkins to agree to take one. Pipkins, a senior, wouldn't have affected the 2016 scholarship count regardless.

There's another huge factor: the impending depth chart crunch. Michigan is set to have seven scholarship quarterbacks on the roster in 2016; they'll also have seven scholarship running backs. That's 14 players for two starting positions (three if M goes RB-by-committee), and there's a good chance underclassmen pass an upperclassman or two. Depending upon how the depth chart shakes out, there could be 3-4 transfer candidates just from those two position groups. As the pecking order is established in fall camp and during the season, some players will look for playing time elsewhere.

In addition, I looked at Stanford's 2010 class for a reason. Any class that fills this many spots this early is likely to have attrition, and while Stanford's 2010 class had an unusual number of decommitments even for Harbaugh, it'd surprise me more if Michigan held onto every current commit than if they lost at least a couple. David Reese is looking at Louisville and Notre Dame. Dele' Harding camped at West Virginia recently. In-class attrition should be expected.

For those looking at the number of highly ranked targets on Michigan's board and wondering where those spots will come from, that should help provide an answer, as should this: always remember that fans tend to overestimate their team's chances of landing top-ranked commits. Is Michigan going to pull in some four-stars and perhaps even a five-star or two down the stretch? Yes. Are they going to add Rashan Gary, both Kellys, Dontavious Jackson, Terrance Davis, Ahmir Mitchell, and Nasier Upshur to round out the class? No. While Michigan is in very good shape with each of those prospects, anyone who's followed recruiting for a while knows that a class never wraps up so neatly, let alone so spectacularly—especially when dealing with so many out-of-region prospects.

At this point, I'm not too concerned about the numbers. There's still an entire fall camp and football season to play before Signing Day, and Michigan is in their first year under a demanding coach with a markedly different style from his predecessor. If M has to "free up" a half-dozen scholarships in February, we have a problem; I don't anticipate this being a problem.

[Hit THE JUMP for the rest of the mailbag.]

I do not want to add to the already over-discussed topic of taking so many “under the radar” kids with low or no rankings.  What I am wondering is whether there is any concern that so many of the offers seem to be based almost entirely on camp performances?  I admit there could be a major flaw in the question itself if you tell me that many of the camp offerees were well-scouted on tape before the camp sessions, but the timing of the offers and the quotes from some of the recruits about being surprised by the offers suggests otherwise.  I understand that some of the kids have impressive HS stats and that seeing a player in person at a camp is an important and valuable part of the equation, but I know also that every year NFL scouts, coaches, and GMs look foolish for placing too much emphasis on combine performances. 

Thanks,

Ross

I don't think this is an entirely fair portrayal of Michigan's camp offers, but it's one I've seen in some form often enough that it's worth addressing. Let's use Dytarious Johnson as an example; as a two-star on Rivals and unranked everywhere else when he committed, Johnson was seen as a flier when Michigan took him.

But Michigan was quite familiar with Johnson before the Prattville camp. Harbaugh took a commitment from his teammate Keith Washington in the 2015 class. It's a good bet that when the coaches were going over Washington's film, the junior linebacker on his defense also caught their attention. Like the rest of the camp commits, Johnson had junior film to evaluate. In his case, the coaches had been monitoring him during the spring, and Johnson had even been on campus for the Spring Game with Washington, though at the time that was noted by few. The camp simply provided the final piece of evidence needed for the coaches to decide he was worthy of an offer.

There's also a reason the camps are arguably more valuable than watching high school film*: it's the only setting where a coach is able to actually, you know, coach his prospective recruits. That's valuable not only for gauging a prospect's ability and potential, but also for knowing how well a player takes to instruction—"coachability" is a big thing for this staff, which believes they can get the most out of a player's raw ability if he's willing to listen. I certainly wouldn't compare Harbaugh taking camp commits from players he got to instruct in what's essentially a practice setting to, say, Al Davis drafting Darrius Heyward-Bey because of his 40 time or JaMarcus Russell because of his cannon arm.

*To be clear, I'm not advocating for the coaches to not take high school film into the equation, and that's certainly not what this staff is doing.

Hi Ace,

Putting aside the debate many of the MGoBlog readers of signing so many "lightly" recruited players so early in the cycle, I was wondering if the recent rash of 2&3 star player commitments should have been expected, and if maybe this is the downside to the seemingly pan-offering approach to recruiting Harbaugh and Co. appear to be taking.  From the player's perspective, if I was a HS football player with some low level offers and Power-5 major player like Michigan (especially if I cared at all about academics) came calling, I would jump all over it before the choice is taken from me by a 4 or 5 star.  If I garnered other interest from other Power 5 schools, I could always de-commit later.  So why isn't the class currently "full" of 2 and 3 stars and how does the coaching staff juggle this possibility while hoping to land some of the bigger fish when they make their decisions later in the recruiting cycle?  Thanks for the insight.

Brian VanderBeek (MGoBeek)
Philadelphia, PA

This one's pretty simple: the coaches have been up front with recruits about whether an offer is truly "commitable," so if a prospect has committed, it's because the coaches found him worthy of a spot in the class. That's an easy way to safeguard against Plan B types filling up the class, and given the way Michigan is recruiting there are still plenty of Plan A options out there. I don't think any camp commits took the spot of a top target.

Michigan may, in fact, get some in-class attrition because of the type of scenario laid out in this question: lower-ranked, out-of-region camp commits may think twice once the initial euphoria of adding a Michigan offer wears off and other programs closer to home start sniffing around. I'm guessing Harbaugh factored that into his recruiting strategy when he laid out plans for the satellite camp tour.

With the increased national recruiting emphasis under Harbaugh, it looks like the big sacrifice has been Ohio. Do you think this is part of the overall strategy or does it just seem like Ohio has fallen off the map (yes, please).

While it's true that Michigan hasn't focused on Ohio in this cycle as much as they have in the past, I don't expect that to be a long-term thing, in large part because it'd be really stupid on Michigan's part to give up on the most fertile nearby recruiting ground. The recent deemphasis has been the result of a temporary dip in talent.

There are just 11 composite four-star prospects from Ohio in the 2016 class, according to 247, and this coaching staff was working from way behind Notre Dame and Ohio State for the guys they targeted (namely OL Tommy Kraemer and Liam Eichenberg). For comparison, there were 19 composite four-stars or better from Ohio in 2013, 15 in 2014, 17 in 2015, and the early 2017 rankings have 15 Ohio prospects with at least four stars. While these coaches are focused on California, Florida, Alabama, New Jersey, Texas, and out-of-region prospects in general much more than the last staff, I doubt they're going to punt on recruiting Ohio.

Comments

dragonchild

July 6th, 2015 at 7:40 PM ^

Indeed.  Though the "these kids finally have to work and the wimps will leave" crap here (not you, here = MGoBlog) needs to die.  I think most of those posts get negged but FFS I think some jackass here even said that about Countess not long after Jackson specifically praised Countess' work ethic.  Yes, he transferred.  He's an all-B1G zone merchant on a man press unit.  He's also not stupid.

We're going to lose some QBs and RBs and it has jack to do with "toughness".  I'm done with toughness as a buzzword.  Pretty much every FBS player has the requisite toughness.  Toughness alone -- and especially talking toughness -- isn't enough or Hoke would have gone undefeated three straight seasons.

Anyway, my point is that with one QB and one tailback on the field, it's the closest thing to a mathematical certainty that we're going to lose a few, if only because these guys aren't stupid and will look for playing time elsewhere.  That's not conceding defeat, but simple math.  One on the field with even 3-4 padawan reserves leaves a couple squeezed out, and an upperclassman way down on the depth chart would see the writing on the wall.

JeepinBen

July 6th, 2015 at 2:28 PM ^

OSU also just won the national championship, might be a bad year for a new coach coming into a team that hasn't had great results recently to try to plant a flag in Ohio.

That said, this year might be opportunity costs, I agree with Ace that Harbaugh won't abandon it totally.

Yard Dog

July 6th, 2015 at 2:39 PM ^

I've been concerned about the lack of Ohio activity, but I think you've uncovered the main reason with "only" 11 4 star or better kids in this class.  We have long had Ohio kids act as pillars of our program, and I'd hate to see this end.  The 2016/7 recruiting cycles may change our position relative to OSU and others, especially when the victories start piling up.

Tyrone Biggums

July 6th, 2015 at 2:46 PM ^

I think we take 28 for sure. We had a really small class last year (15) so backdating won't be an issue. I'd imagine that Harbaugh wants as many of his guys in the program asap. Do we really take another kicker though? Andrew David isn't even on campus yet and Harbaugh seemed to praise and really like him?

Ron Utah

July 6th, 2015 at 3:11 PM ^

If you can get Quinn Nordin, you take him.  The kid can already kick a 65-yard field goal off the ground and a 50-yard punt with good hangtime.  Kickoffs would be touchback city.

That said, if you can't get him, I'm not sure we are actively pursuing more kickers.  Andrew David was a great prospect as well, and we've got the Aussie this fall.

But yeah, if Nordin wants to come, he's well worth a scholarship.

chatster

July 6th, 2015 at 9:57 PM ^

Incoming freshman Andrew David’s circumstances remain a mystery to me. I’ve read that he’s a very good shortstop, as well as a very good placekicker. I believe that he has indicated a desire to play both baseball and football at Michigan; but Michigan seems to be set at shortstop with Freshman All-American and Big Ten Freshman of the Year, Jake Bivens.
 
I see that Chicago Cubs' draft pick Ramsey Romano is no longer listed on Michigan's football roster and is back on the baseball roster as an infielder, but that he has played in only 13 of 40 games this summer for the Wisconsin Woodchucks in the Northwoods League. Maybe with Jacob Cronenworth having signed with Tampa Bay, Andrew David sees an opening at second base for 2016.
 
When I read Magnus’ write up on Touch The Banner about incoming freshman Andrew David, he commented that, from what he’d heard, walk-on Kyle Seychel is going to be Michigan’s kicker this fall. If that’s true, then could it be, as one poster asked on Touch The Banner, that Andrew David has indicated to the football coaches that he’d prefer to concentrate on baseball for now?  Wouldn’t that have something to do with the talk about recruiting another scholarship kicker for the 2016 class?

alum96

July 6th, 2015 at 2:55 PM ^

Thanks Brian.

If I only had a nickel for each time someone asks question #1 on these boards the next 7 months....

I did a similar outline in a message board post a few days ago but I also included upperclassmen WR(s).  I didnt include RBs but I guess 1 could come from there too.  If guys want to play football there are going to be roadblocks for some here - that's just reality. 

  • I have 4-5 RS JRs who have played either zero or near zero meaningful Big 10 snaps in their entire career.  Unless that changes this year....
  • 1  very obvious OL medical
  • Upperclassmen WRs who there is zero buzz around and apparently are being passed by 2014/2015 types
  • You mentioned RBs - I guess if Higdon comes on that might push one out.  Not sure.
  • The normal 2-3 yearly attrition of guys you don't expect  (Ferns, Countess types)
  • And I'd add 2 non linemen guys who have been moved around a lot in positions but never seem to get even 3rd string snaps.  One might get some in the DBs this year.

Now not all of these guys (outside category 1 who can go play immediately somewhere else) will leave early because maybe some see writing on the wall in terms of football and they just want to finish school rather than sit out a year to go play for Central or Ferris State but some good portion will, I'd assume.

I'd also caution about expecting this to be a yearly thing - until it is proven it is.  Could just be guys out there Harbaugh and player disagree on, in terms of their future.  That happens in a coaching change so what might be a yearly 3-5 guys leaving is probably going to take a 1 year spike.

chatster

July 7th, 2015 at 7:03 AM ^

The size of Michigan's 2016 recruiting class begins to make more sense when considering what you, Ace and Brian have written. . . . . Some clever lyricist might be working on a parody of the opening song from the Broadway musical Fiddler on the Roof -- And how do we keep our (recruiting class size) balance? That I can tell you in one word. Attrition!

Here's a 1937-d, three-legged buffalo nickel for your efforts. Some say that it might be more valuable than just five cents. LINK

But that's just my two . . . 

 

 

TrppWlbrnID

July 6th, 2015 at 2:56 PM ^

Brady Hoke's class had that receiver from Florida, was it george something AND Damian Harris on it?

that killed my obsession with summer recruiting

the real hail_yes

July 6th, 2015 at 3:11 PM ^

George Campbell... who incidentally fell pretty far in the rankings due to butterfingers, but thats besides the point.

While I agree that summer recruiting can be painful to follow/invest time in, the reason those guys left was the same as a lot of the other attritioners... we sucked.

HeWhoMustNotBeNamed

July 6th, 2015 at 3:29 PM ^

http://mgoblog.com/content/hello-future-george-campbell

WIth all of the recent verbal committs and last year's verbals who eventually committed elsewhere over last year's season, does anyone have an attrition % of 3 -5 star who ended up elsewhere after previously giving the verbal committ?

Lanknows

July 6th, 2015 at 3:00 PM ^

The excuse for oversigning was always attrition. The unsavory element comes in the post-season gap between signing day and the fall.

That said, it's a fine line between pushing attrition during the season and pushing it in the offseason.  Normal attrition (due to transfer, injury, off-field, etc.) would put Michigan north of 20 recruits, but 25 is uh...aggressive.  Pushing for attrition is still uncomfortable.

It's not worth worrying much about numbers now (I've never understand the emphasis on discussing 'open' positions 8 months before signing day) but you can see where this is going to lead to some unpleasant situations with current players and we've already seen the start of it with Pipkins.

wolverine1987

July 6th, 2015 at 3:15 PM ^

underestimate Ace's other point: there is a radically different coaching staff and HC here from last year. While any new coaching transition means new attrition, in Harbaugh's case I think we will see a very large spate of transfers, because we are going from laid back coach who everyone loved, to a guy that doesn't care less what you think of him, challenges players, and can be, objectively, hard to deal with for some (many?) people. I think this adds up to RR levels of attrition this year.

JeepinBen

July 6th, 2015 at 6:08 PM ^

Let's see where the numbers are in January. The coaches should have a much better idea of who's graduating, who gets a firm handshake rather than a 5th year, if there are any injuries, and where the recruiting class is (attrition there too).

If Michigan has 25 recruits for 15 easily-accessed spots in January, I'll worry a bunch.

LKLIII

July 6th, 2015 at 9:54 PM ^

What I don't get is why should it take until January? I've got to assume the team got a pretty good taste of Harbaugh during spring practice. If guys were prone to washing out just due to the physical uptick in practice I've gotta assume they'd have left the team already. The conclusion is this means the attrition would be more playing time and possibly injury related next year rather than just s team culture thing. Otherwise it would've happened already, no?



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Ronnie Kaye

July 6th, 2015 at 3:36 PM ^

Whoever he is, he thinks way too much about high school recruiting. This mailbag reminded me of a time I walked by HopCat a few weeks ago and some guys ranging from 30-70 were outside talking about the Michigan commits and how their bodies projected to grow. It was creepy as hell.

WestQuad

July 6th, 2015 at 4:37 PM ^

My wife thinks it is creepy that I look at MGoBlog at all.  I think this is the problem with fandom and the internet.  There is too much information.   You want to know every detail, but it just gets a little much.  There was a college/pro coach a couple of years ago that had a quote about projecting players ability based on the size of their thighs and butts.*  Very creepy.  

 

*I'd google who it was, but that would be creepy in and of itself.

Low Key Recidivist

July 6th, 2015 at 6:47 PM ^

I doubt they got in on Dytarious Johnson via watching tape since he plays defense.  My guess is that while they were recruiting Washington, the head coach mentioned that they should take a look at him.

chatster

July 7th, 2015 at 1:58 PM ^

I’ve been reading your 2015 Countdown write-ups on Touch the Banner and find them to be very informative. When I got to Andrew David, like some others, I was surprised that you (a) ranked him so low and (b) said that you’d heard that Kyle Seychel would be Michigan’s starting placekicker when the season starts. Have you heard anything further about Andrew David’s status for 2015?

cujoweju

July 8th, 2015 at 8:06 AM ^

 

 

 
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