[via Princeton Athletics]

Princeton Transfer Jaelin Llewellyn Has Committed to Michigan Comment Count

Seth April 29th, 2022 at 2:21 PM

How about Ivy League credits, are those okay? It appears so, and also appears like Michigan has finally found a guard to join Kobe Bufkin and air for minutes at the two, not to mention a guy who can create his own shot.

Josh Henschke confirmed it. He's coming.

Llewellyn is a scorer, passing 1,000 points in three seasons at Princeton, including 136 three-pointers. Plugging his 2021 season into my chart generator paints a picture of a perfect Not Just a Shooter™.

image

That's an impressive box: high usage, miniscule turnover rate, and (37% of points assisted) not a lot of help. Princeton didn't really have a point guard last year, running most of their offense through a 6'8"/217 center. Their defensive numbers (see: 6'8"/217 center) were abysmal, so it's hard to tell anything from the stats. The highlights are a lot of scoring, as you might expect:

The Synergy numbers are more encouraging. Llewellyn took 40 percent of his jumpers off the dribble and 60 percent were contested, so those threes came honestly. He's also good pick and roll ballhandler and very effective in transition, though not enough of an athlete to be a true isolation threat.

Michigan—hoo boy—needed a guy, especially once it looked like Texas Tech's Terrence Shannon was turned around by a combination of Michigan's tweedy transfer credit demands, Texas Tech's refusal to let him finish there first, and Illinois's more robust NIL program. Eli Brooks graduated, neither Frankie Collins nor incoming Dug McDaniel are really off-ball guards, and Michigan had all their eggs in 2nd year players Kobe Bufkin and Isaiah Barnes, who didn't even see the field, taking huge leaps forward next year. That could still be the case and Michigan still needed help here, since small forward options were Caleb Houstan again or freshman Jett Howard. Depending on Bufkin's development, and how well Llewellyn transitions to playing defense with athletes more on his level, we could see the two starting together, or Llewellyn as a crucial scoring option off the bench. At the very least they needed a shooter, since their only guy to make the national top-300 in 3P% just gradated.

Originally from Ontario, he was the rare Ivy League 4-star, coming in 99th in the composite rankings in 2018. He played all three season that Princeton did (the Ivy League canceled their 2020-'21 season) so Llewellyn will come in with senior eligibility, the only guy on Michigan's roster who's more than a sophomore right now. Michigan's still waiting on draft decisions from Caleb Houstan and Moussa Diabate, and it's probably not likely both return, but if they do the Wolverines can still open up a scholarship by taking Jace Howard's.

We'll probably get Matt from Endless Motor to do a full scouting Hello later.

Comments

bronxblue

April 29th, 2022 at 2:30 PM ^

This is a nice pickup and I'm happy he's joining.

I do have to ask why the assumption Shannon isn't coming to UM is because of NIL and not the fact that admissions, for the billionth time, makes it quite hard for kids to transfer credits and Shannon doesn't feel like dealing with it.  I know the current talking point about UM athletics is that they are terrible at making money off student-athletes but Llewellyn is a grad transfers and Shannon is not, and that's why the prior is coming to UM and the latter is likely not.  I'm all for reforming the credit transfer process because it'll help all UM students, not just athletes.  I just don't get why we're ignoring that reality in order to take another swipe at a still-undefined problem with UM's NIL system.

DennisFranklinDaMan

April 29th, 2022 at 2:39 PM ^

I would need to know more about the transferring-credits system, but if the complaint is only that it makes it difficult for us to get good athletes in, I'm not very bothered by it. We all feel Michigan is special -- and I'm sure the coaches use the value of a Michigan degree as a recruiting tool -- so let's not be so quick to abandon something that actually makes our "commitment to academic excellence" less than simple marketing bullshit.

I don't care if Northwestern, Stanford, Cal-Berkeley, Duke, etc. all have sacrificed their values at the altar of almighty sports. (I don't know if they have or not). Doesn't mean we should. A race to the bottom does little for me.

bronxblue

April 29th, 2022 at 2:55 PM ^

I too don't know the particulars but my understanding is that UM's big issue is they are extremely rigid about class conversions from other schools; if you don't have a class that almost directly maps onto one at UM they won't accept the credits even if the underlying class material and lessons are equal.  I can only speak from experience but I took a class at Oakland Community College while in HS and had more trouble than you'd think trying to get credit for that class because UM didn't have a direct analog to it.  Now, the class used the same textbook as UM did and had all the same chapters covered, but they called it X and UM called it Y and Michigan didn't care much beyond that to figure out the analog.  Ultimately it was treated as a general credit for classes outside of my major, which was fine in my case but obviously wouldn't be fun for others. 

And I don't necessarily think it's academic rigor involved here - the reason UM makes it so hard to transfer credits is because they want to charge you money to take the class at UM.  It's why they don't seem to care nearly as much about grad transfers despite, you'd assume, having similar issues about the academic credentials of graduates from said schools getting the "opportunity" to earn graduate degrees from an elite school like UM.  But since there aren't grad school transfer credits UM can still charge the student-athlete for all the required courses.  It feels like a cash grab wrapped up in "Leaders and Best" bullshit and it hurts everyone, athlete and not, to deal with it.

dragonchild

April 29th, 2022 at 3:08 PM ^

We all feel Michigan is special -- and I'm sure the coaches use the value of a Michigan degree as a recruiting tool -- so let's not be so quick to abandon something that actually makes our "commitment to academic excellence" less than simple marketing bullshit.

Michigan has an excellent academic reputation but the credits transfer thing is nothing more than extraordinarily petty cheapness.

And no, the complaint isn't limited to athletes.  It's just not worth it to transfer to Michigan as an undergrad in almost any context because the policy boils down to, "We won't respect any academic work you did anywhere, but for your effort, we'll be happy to charge you tuition at upperclassman rates."

It's not old-fashioned or choosy or anything related to athletics.  It's just unabashed greed and arrogance; one of the things that gives Michigan a reputation for ivory tower elitism.

pescadero

April 29th, 2022 at 3:30 PM ^

"It's just not worth it to transfer to Michigan as an undergrad in almost any context because the policy boils down to, "We won't respect any academic work you did anywhere, but for your effort, we'll be happy to charge you tuition at upperclassman rates."

 

Just not true.

If you're transferring in as a freshman or sophomore, and you've taken relatively similar classes - almost everything will transfer.

 

The issue is if you are an upperclassmen. 

 

Michigan is NOT going to let you come here for 20-30 credits and transfer 100+ credits and get a Michigan degree. You're going to have to earn at least half your credits at Michigan if you want a Michigan degree.

maizeonblueaction

April 29th, 2022 at 5:01 PM ^

So this is an anecdote from another situation, and might be a slight humblebrag, but here goes:

I'm currently in a non-MBA program at a top 10-ish b school. The original pitch was that you could take the credits from this program, call it the core of an MBA, take a few electives and then get an MBA on the cheap.

Just for fun, I called a few comparable b schools to see if they would consider taking the transfer credits, and they all uniformly said they'd be happy to admit me, but would not take credits. So, my point is, never underestimate how much schools just want to take your money.

TrueBlue2003

April 29th, 2022 at 8:40 PM ^

Nah, they're probably leaving money on the table by NOT giving you the credits.  If they had any attrition, they'd theoretically have spots available in the non-core (2nd year) classes that they could fill and make more money by letting you start there.  But by making you start as a first year, they're just taking a spot from someone else (they admit a fixed number of students each cycle).  So by doing this, they're not getting any extra money from you that they wouldn't get from someone else.

It's about ensuring that everyone that gets the degree took essentially the same path.  That's it.  And doing so, costs them money.  But it's the fair thing to do.  None of their students would be happy if they let you in only to take a couple classes and get the same degree they did.

Commie_High96

April 30th, 2022 at 7:34 AM ^

Actually, other schools don’t have this problem. I know for a fact because my UM credits from classes I took in high school and summers transferred easily to the private undergrad I attended that generally ranks in the top ten schools in the country and above um on those dumb lists.

it also hurts CURRENT UM students because it limits study abroad programs and really serves no purpose whatsoever. You really can’t make a reasonable argument in support.

Washtenaw Community College has a department that whose sole job it is getting WCC credits transferred and accepted for the 250 or so students that transfer each year to UM.

 

bronxblue

April 29th, 2022 at 2:47 PM ^

Yeah, I understand UM is not the best at NIL right now but you'd think convincing Dickinson to come back and some of the other deals football players have signed recently would prove that they are at the very least competent at it.  And I certainly don't know a ton about Illinois's NIL system but they've had a decent chunk of top-100 guys leave the past couple of years and I've not heard about the guys sticking around making bank.

 

MGlobules

April 29th, 2022 at 3:16 PM ^

So maybe the payola's better at Illinois, or maybe the payola's better for Shannon at Illinois, or maybe we don't know. I'm pretty sure we don't know. We don't really know much about transfer credits, either. And we don't know which governed this situation.

Mostly speculation, up and down this board. Illustration number one of many more to come, though, that Michigan may not always come out on top of this situation about which we've had so much dubious exuberance here. 

Oh, and Shannon is from Chicago, so old-fashioned issues like comfort level and connections may have governed his decision, too. 

I like Llewellyn a lot though, agreed. In fact, we may all be sleeping on Tarris Reed and what Juwan sees about next year's rotation, farther ahead with Llewellyn in the fold than we might have been with Shannon.* Always a question of how the skills translate, never know until he suits up in the B1G. But he is crafty, knows how to get his shot. 

Still wish I saw in someone on our roster what I thought I saw in Shannon--a slashing, muscular presence who might give us a more physical edge. 

*Or maybe not. I don't know how Reed might translate at the four, or how much these guys can flex; Jet is supposed to be capable of playing the 2, 3, and 4, and handling the ball some. 

TrueBlue2003

April 29th, 2022 at 3:32 PM ^

I have a hard time believing the pay is better across the board at Illinois.  At least, it doesn't seem to be helping them with anyone else.  They just lost almost their entire roster to transfers out (or pro declarations).

This is almost certainly just a Terrence Shannon thing.  And it makes sense for them to pony up for him given the crisis they're in.  No one else is taking their money so that probably means they're able to throw more at Shannon. 

Michigan (and their donors/sponsors) are directing a lot of NiL money to Hunter and likely other guys so how much was left for Shannon? Probably just not as much as Illinois (which he also chose over Kentucky, FTR).

pescadero

April 29th, 2022 at 3:08 PM ^

"the fact that admissions, for the billionth time, makes it quite hard for kids to transfer credits"
 

Admissions has nothing to do with what credits transfer.

 

Admissions decide whether you are qualified to be admitted.

 

Individual departments (not admissions) set their own policy as to the maximum number of credits allowed to be transferred in and receive a Michigan degree,

TrueBlue2003

April 29th, 2022 at 3:46 PM ^

Yes, it is an "administrative" issue, even if not admissions.  Admissions let's all these guys in, the question is how much of their credits at prior institutions do they get UofM credit for which is a departmental decision.  And most departments say if there isn't an equivalent class, they can't give credit.  And for this, it makes sense.  And also is understandable that they can't make exceptions for athletes.  It is not a subjective thing the way admissions are.

I completely disagree that this is about getting people to pay for more years of schooling.  That's ridiculous.  Michigan has a certain capacity.  And they can take as many transfers as necessary to hit that capacity.  They don't need to make a lower number of transfers take more classes just to hit that capacity.  And in fact, the university benefits long term by accepting more transfers and graduating them quicker because that's more alums to ask for donations from. And to be able to take more transfers they need to graduate some of them quickly given the limited capacity.  So for example, instead of taking 2000 transfers that will take classes for 3 years each, they would prefer to take 3000 transfers and graduate them in 2 years.  It's a better use of class space.

This is 100 percent about fairness and maintaining the integrity of the Michigan degree.  Why should a transfer get a Michigan degree without taking the equivalent coursework that a non-transfer had to take?  You can't take three years of basket-weaving and then just come to Michigan for a year and get a degree.  I'm good with that rule.

pescadero

April 29th, 2022 at 3:49 PM ^

Admissions:
1 bureaucracy at the University, controlled by the university in a general sense.

 

Departments: 100 different bureaucracies, each run by their own CEO, who get to largely decide their own internal policies, and not controlled by the overall university.

 

The university president or regents can go to admissions and say "change X".

They CANNOT force departments to change, and they have to deal with 100 of them... all of whom don't really care about athletics, only the prestige of their own department.

 

Seth

April 29th, 2022 at 3:31 PM ^

I'm not making an assumption. Got the same story from three different sources. The transfer credits played a role but that was not the biggest part of the deal.

I'm guessing Llewellyn is a grad transfer but I don't know. I was being a bit petty because you know my stance on transfer credits at Michigan.

bronxblue

April 29th, 2022 at 3:44 PM ^

That's interesting then since all the talk before the past couple of days was that Shannon very much liked UM but there were concerns about admissions.  Now if that's a cover for NIL so be it but that feels like something a person would just come out and say at this point.

I guess what I'd like to see posted somewhere are the actual concerns people have had with the NIL program at UM as it compares to other schools'.  I feel like it's been a steady drumbeat of concern by some people around here but it's very veiled and hard to hammer down.  

Like, if the issue is UM's NIL potential was $150k because they're already paying $800k to Dickinson and Illinois's was $500k because half their team is gone and they've got the cash laying around then that's just economics and not necessarily a failing of UM's NIL program foundationally.   Everyone's got a budget and as long as UM's isn't substantially less than everyone else's so be it.  If it's that UM's NIL program is just bad and lacks good options for everyone then that's a more substantial issue.  

TrueBlue2003

April 29th, 2022 at 3:47 PM ^

The only talk of concern over admissions were amongst people that have no clue / want to scapegoat the transfer credit issue every time we don't get a guy.

And I completely disagree that it's something someone would come out and say.  You don't want to seem like you're all the about the money.  You're much less likely to say, yeah, I took the biggest offer than you would be to say, my credits didn't transfer (since that's no reflection on you).

He took the biggest offer, simple as that.  Illinois must have a bunch of NiL money available since no one else seems to want it.  Speaking of which, his path to playing time is much easier at Illinois too.  If Houstan comes back and he and Bufkin take leaps, Shannon could have found himself as third one up amongst those three (I think it's unlikely but still possible).

bronxblue

April 29th, 2022 at 5:47 PM ^

I'm not scapegoating admissions - that has been repeated numerous times around Shannon for some time; hell, the premature announcement of his commitment included caveats about admissions still being a real point of contention.  

Again, a lot of people here are arguing about admissions vs. credits/degree requirements as if they exist in separate universes as opposed to tightly-coupled dependencies that can submarine people transferring.  And I say that as someone who had to deal, on a very small scale, with this exact issue 20+ years ago and it being a pain then.

Seth

April 29th, 2022 at 3:58 PM ^

Let's put it this way: Michigan was in good shape with Shannon despite the credit problem, then they weren't. Without sharing too much, cause I don't understand it all, TTU put a block of some kind, and made a pitch, and that led to seeking other pitches, and Michigan needs better pitching.

bronxblue

April 29th, 2022 at 5:45 PM ^

I know a lot has come out since posted on both ends so I understand more.  But I guess I still don't know what happened with the pitch with UM.  If it's an issue with money availability that's one thing, but if it's about how it was pitched that (a) seems easily fixable but (b) sort of weird.  I mean, UM saying "we'll give you $X and Illinois will give you $Y", with X > Y, and that not being enough seems like an issue beyond the dollar amounts or the underlying NIL program.  It's why I'm asking for more details, which may be a fool's errand since so much of this is behind closed doors.

Anyway, thanks for responding.  This is all craziness on a Friday.

Kilgore Trout

April 29th, 2022 at 2:35 PM ^

So if he was at Princeton for four years, but only played 3 he should have two years of eligibility if he wants it, right? One for the redshirt / canceled season and one for the COVID year. Does it matter that they happened in the same season?