OT: Debt from Law School at the School in Ohio leaves lawyer unfit for admission to Ohio Bar
A lesson for those thinking of starting law school this coming fall...
Wow. Guy goes to law school, guy racks up a huge amount of debt, guy has no idea how he’ll pay off his debts. Sound familiar? Okay, here’s the twist: the guy failed the “character and fitness” component of the Ohio bar because he has no plan to pay off his loans.
January 14th, 2011 at 11:20 AM ^
I'm starting in a BigLaw firm next year, and I credit a lot of that lucky break from talking college football in my interview/summer associate job and meeting some great UMich alumns.
January 14th, 2011 at 1:08 PM ^
I graduated law school in May 2007 from a school that, at the time, was top 25. I got my first job in October of that year after basically 2 years of panic, and got it over the other candidates mainly because I told the partner who interviewed me that I could play shortstop or third base on the softball team. Turns out he was the shortstop and felt like he was too old to keep it up, and wanted to move to third base. This kind of random thing actually happens. To be quite honest, I'd probably have done the same thing if I were choosing between equivalently qualified candidates.
January 14th, 2011 at 11:04 AM ^
Holy Crap Blue! You are more depressing then the coaching search. I have three daughters and I will now have to do everything in my power to have them avoid Law students as well as the stripper poll and vivid video.
January 14th, 2011 at 11:16 AM ^
At least allow them to give Vivid video a shot........
January 14th, 2011 at 11:18 AM ^
Holy Crap Blue! You are more depressing then the coaching search.
That's gonna be my signature for a while. Well played.
January 14th, 2011 at 12:52 PM ^
In fact, it's starting to look that way. Michigan is tough, and there is veeeery little likelihood that we'll stay in scenic South Bend.
January 14th, 2011 at 1:29 PM ^
why don't you send your contact information to Brian who can forward it to me confidentially. I don't have any openings in our legal department at the moment, but positions become available in the company all the time. I can also circulate your resume to associates in the area (Raleigh, NC).
January 14th, 2011 at 10:31 AM ^
I think going to tOSU for law school is what rendered him unfit for admission to the Ohio bar. Zing!
Since everyone is chiming in with law school advice, here's mine: don't go to law school because you don't really know what you want to do. There are better ways to figure out your future without saddling yourself with $150K in debt. And if you do go to law school, treat it like a job - especially in your first year. Bust your ass to get good grades, because that first year really matters. Finally, like many others above have posted, make sure you know what lawyers do, and that you want to do the same. I'm a litigator with the Department of Justice and I really enjoy my job, but I know many people who don't. Try and make sure that you aren't totally blindsided by what the practice of law really is once you graduate.
But probably, don't go to law school.
January 14th, 2011 at 10:36 AM ^
I think going to tOSU for law school is what rendered him unfit for admission to the Ohio bar any bar in the country EXCEPT Ohio.
January 14th, 2011 at 12:23 PM ^
UM #9, tOSU #34 per USN&WR 2010: Yes, if you are a top 10% from both schools you are in much better shape with a degree from UM in most instances. But that top 10% from tOSU is still better off than a top half from UM getting into large firm or corporate positions straight out of school. The flip side of that is too that I got out of tOSU Law with 25k in loans, not 150k, granted it was 10 years ago. I got my thanks but no thanks letter from UM before the application deadline had come if I remember correctly. To this day the timing of my rejection I still find a bit comical. Would I have chosen to practice law instead of staying in healthcare if I attended UM...dont know. But I seriously doubt I'd be working 3-day weeks like I am now if I had.
January 14th, 2011 at 12:55 PM ^
I make a funny because, you know, it's OSU. Moritz is actually a pretty darn good law school. The problem is that it is surrounded by Ohio State University.
I actually considered OSU Law, before I settled on a slightly less hated rival.
January 14th, 2011 at 1:05 PM ^
Not offended in the least...I was just pointing out that being the big fish in a little pond can be more beneficial...something to consider unless one is sure they can be the big fish in the big pond.
January 14th, 2011 at 10:35 AM ^
Not a lawyer, but reading Third Tier Reality is always interesting. I'd recommend it for anyone looking at law school, though I'll admit the author of said blog uses slightly incideniary language.
January 14th, 2011 at 10:40 AM ^
But I can pretty much guarantee that the guy had a really poor credit rating and/or mountains of debt from non-educational sources. C&F does not ding people solely on educational debt. If that were the criteria, there would be like 6 lawyers in each state. Almost everyone graduates with a lot of debt. I have $135,000 myself and C&F didn't even blink.
C&F is designed to keep people unfit for practicing out of law. Lawyers are often called upon to handle money, segregate assets, etc. A SUPER shitty credit rating, past bankruptcies, loads of credit card debt, gambling problems etc. indicates that a person may not be able to be trusted with other people's money. Hence the C&F ding.
January 14th, 2011 at 11:46 AM ^
three times, and his student loan debt (which is deferred the first year after you graduate) had already gone into default.
January 14th, 2011 at 10:40 AM ^
two words: dental school
January 14th, 2011 at 12:22 PM ^
Maybe it's just me, but I don't feel like my orthodontist ever does anything.
*poke poke poke, scrape scrape scrape* Everything looks good here. Peace out.
January 14th, 2011 at 1:15 PM ^
That's the point, he doesn't do anything, and he rakes in the cash. That's an awesome job. As a lawyer, I have to move metric tons of paper from the left side of my desk to the right side in order to justify my paycheck. All your dentist has to do is buy a fish tank, hire a hot assistant to clean your teeth, make you cry, and then give you a toothbrush.
January 14th, 2011 at 2:28 PM ^
your orthodontist says "Peace out" after a visit? he's that cool? that's awesome.
mine doesn't even tell me when to put my pants back on.
January 14th, 2011 at 12:34 PM ^
January 14th, 2011 at 10:49 AM ^
For those worried about loans, strongly consider moving back home, getting married, or moving in with your employed significant other if you can (the latter two, of course, not always an option/desire). Anything to cut the cost of living burden, which is often $15,000 per year . Significantly helped both my uncle (moved back home) and my wife (married me, probably for money as she'll undoubtedly trade up when she graduates ala Seinfeld) in regards to the debt burden.
January 14th, 2011 at 11:08 AM ^
I went to law school because I realized that I needed and advanced degree to get ahead in my career. I chose law school over an MBA because you can be a lawyer and also be a business man, but if you're only a businessman, you can't be a lawyer. I figured that having my law license would put me into a more selective employment pool. Really, I didn't have any fascination with the law, I just wanted to have more doors opened up for me.
When I got to law school, I sort of just followed the crowd and went to work for a large firm because those were the best jobs and easiest to find.
I really, really hate paying $400 per month for my loans for the next 25 years, but my income would have been more than $400 per month less if I hadn't gone to law school and I'd probably still be working just as hard trying to get ahead - I do like working hard though, so it's not that bad. However, for people who don't want to do large firm life (which I dislike, but can't imagine it is infinetly worse than corporate America), the debt would probably not be worth it.
In the end, I wish I would have followed my dreams of becoming a a naval engineer or a marine biologist, but I did what everyone told me to do - get ahead. If that's what you want to do, then go to law school, work your butt off, treat it like a job, and continue working your butt off to give your family a more affluent life. If you're content with a less lavish lifestyle, go study coral of the coast of Austraila - or create a kick ass blog about sports at the best university in the world!
EDIT: I just realized that the OP did not ask for lawyers opinions on the subject, but we've become so opinionated that almost all the responses are lawyers opinion on whether or not to go to law school. Hah!! At least it's Friday and I get to watch the Red Wings kick Columbus' ass in hockey tonight (with my d-bag brother in law who is an annoying osu fan)!
January 14th, 2011 at 11:14 AM ^
That's not bad at all, is it? Depending on your rate/loan duration, isn't that like $30k total in debt? If you land the large firm salary then that should be a quick repay, no?
January 14th, 2011 at 11:37 AM ^
I forgot about another loan that is normally an additional $150/month, but I pre-paid it through this October with last year's tax refund. So it'd be like $550/month.
My law school debt right now is around $85,000. I clerked during school and was super frugal. Debt from fucking off catches up to you.
I'd like to pay it off as quickly as possible, but there also mortgage payment, car payment, kid expenses, etc. My paycheck is a joke after all the deductions for taxes, saving for retirement, and HSA/medical, so an extra $400to $550/month post-taxes is very much appreciated.
January 14th, 2011 at 11:54 AM ^
That's not too bad, really. I graduated with over $150k from UMLS and am paying around $1580 a month in loans. It's tough, but I don't regret it. I actually like being a lawyer more than law school, although the hours suck (work at a midsize firm, but still have to bill 2100+ per year, even though our salaries are below BigLaw numbers, which leads to some internal grumbling).
January 14th, 2011 at 2:43 PM ^
Damn, that is a lot.
Assuming 4 weeks off per year for vacation and sick time, you're looking at a 44 hour week of BILLABLE hours. Which surely equates to probably 55-60 hours a week.
Not all that uncommon in high paying jobs, but it hurts.
January 14th, 2011 at 10:52 AM ^
No matter what kind of school you attend, you do need to have a realistic plan for what you are going to do afterwards and how you are going to meet your financial obligations, whatever they may be. Even then, having a few back-up plans is smart. A lot of people don't realize that legal jobs are scarce and that "having a law degree" by itself doesn't make you a marketable commodity.
I was on a plane a couple months ago talking to someone that works for a state bar association (in a Big Ten state) and they told me that only about 40% of their law graduates have legally related jobs six months after graduation. That's a sobering statistic.
January 14th, 2011 at 10:54 AM ^
go for it. enough small and mid-size practices out there with good hours, good pay.
January 14th, 2011 at 11:01 AM ^
Here's an idea for you law students about some current "hot" and "cold" areas of practice:
Hot: Patent/Trademark, healthcare, government contracting, bankruptcy
Cold: Securitization and other sophisticated secured transactions, commercial real estate
January 14th, 2011 at 11:09 AM ^
For government contracting, what type of law would you specifically study? Would it be mostly related to contracts. (Note that I have no idea what most of law school curriculum consists of, so feel free to dumb it down.)
January 14th, 2011 at 11:14 AM ^
Honestly, from experience, the courses you take do not correlate to a career. In law school, you basically learn a work ethic, how to research and think critically, and how to write. I practice in the corporate bankruptcy area and my bankruptcy course in law school was about worthless. If you want to do government contracting (where lawyers with that skill are in HIGH demand), you'll really want to focus on getting an internship in the area during both summers. Agree to work for free, if you have to!
January 14th, 2011 at 11:36 AM ^
Interesting. Not a lawya, but I've basically worked my entire professional career in government related things. Not that I have a professional career. Digression over.
You are correct though. Government contracts and purchasing is huge right now. Definitely a place to get into if you're already in law school (or planning to go).
January 14th, 2011 at 2:47 PM ^
Most important thing is to intern or work in the area you want to work in. There are so many applicants out there for each position that firms can be really choosy and will seek to minimize their hiring risk at all costs. Figure out what you like, intern in it (for free if you have to), and you'll be ok.
January 14th, 2011 at 11:03 AM ^
January 14th, 2011 at 11:10 AM ^
though it's client-dependent in some cases (i.e., if client waits until the deadline to provide instructions, you may get stuck, but stuck in this case means staying in the office an extra hour).
trademark is very difficult to get into.
January 14th, 2011 at 11:12 AM ^
Even with patent prep. & pros., there is still the difficulty of having the right technical/scientific background. Many lawyers do not have the necessary technical/scientific background to sit for the patent bar. There is also a strong preference in patent for candidates with additional degrees (Ph.D. or M.S.).
January 14th, 2011 at 11:15 AM ^
don't plan on practicing patent law unless you have a science or engineering degree.
also, the masters and phds are more important for the chemical, bio-, etc., arts. patent law job market is friendlier with electrical (ee, cs, ce) and mechanical arts, you'll be fine with a bachelors
January 14th, 2011 at 2:50 PM ^
Our patent guys when I was at IBM were pretty sharp, and we threw a lot of pretty exotic stuff at them. So if you enjoy that kind of a challenge, patent law might be good for you. It's extremely detailed, though, which I hate. That is of course why I'm not an engineer anymore.
January 14th, 2011 at 11:17 AM ^
Clients have an idea of how much they want to pay per action, and that's all they'll pay. As such, a lot of my prosecution buddies are working their asses off and not able to bill for anything. They work like 4 hours and end up billing 1, since the clients are starting to have the power to pay whatever they feel like.
January 14th, 2011 at 11:23 AM ^
generally the case with big domestic clients (IBM, Microsoft, etc.), known for being "cheap" on the prosecution side, and it's not uncommon for some firms to take on the less-profitable prosecution work to secure the litigation work.
foreign clients (which are the big u.s. filers outside of IBM) still pay top dollar, though during the economic downturn fixed-cap fees have become more prevalent.
January 14th, 2011 at 11:28 AM ^
I can't speak for everyone, but in the situations I know of, the firms have become so desperate for work that they basically let the clients name the price. (Foreign included)
In any event, I'm doing litigation. Kinda curious if I could get a better pay/hours worked deal in prosecution, but would need to pass the patent bar first.
January 14th, 2011 at 11:52 AM ^
I can only speak for my experience. I graduated UM with a CS degree and a poor GPA (3). I got into a tier I law school (GW) due to a strong LSAT. I graduated law school with a poor GPA (3). Easily found work at a small IP practice, required little effort (though it's a different time). Working finally got me focused. About 14 months ago, the small practice tanked because the big client pulled out. the small practice was doing what you said above, i.e., groveling to clients essentially letting them set the price. I was lucky to have established good relations with the big client, and that carried me to a big prosecution practice one year ago. tough economic times for a few months where there was very little work and we did offer clients discounts. about april that ended, and we've been busy as hell.
difference in lifestyle btwn small and large practices is crazy. small firm i was making great money working a max of 40 hours a week. big firm pays more, but i have to put in 50 hours a week and travel some. overall can't complain. best part of this job is exposure to some really cool technologies that do find their way to consumer market, like digital multimedia broadcasting, 3D tv, optical storage media, etc.
January 14th, 2011 at 12:07 PM ^
For what it's worth, I attended UMLS, and it was the best 3 years of my life, both socially and intellectually. I loved the sense of community living in the law quad. I loved that I got to witness the Braylon game. I loved eating all my meals with big groups of friends in the dining hall. I loved that our flag football team kicked everybody's ass, including the undergrad frats. And the UMLS brand name allowed me to grab a good job with smart people I enjoy working with (I was lucky, I got in right before the hiring dropped off a cliff). My total debt was around $140K, but I paid off all my private loans (~90K) in 2.5 years and am carrying 50K in fed loans only because I'd be semi-foolish to pay it off (it's about 1% APR, and I'm doing better than that just sticking the cash in an online savings account). There is something to be said for living well below your means for a few years (or forever). I make a really good salary. I ride the bus every day.*
*(I don't own a car. But if I were a car owner and was a vanity-plate kinda guy, I'm pretty sure my UM plate would say "MOXIE". Come back to school, Tater)
January 14th, 2011 at 12:34 PM ^
The way Sopwith describes paring down the loans is the way to do it. Knocking out the higher interest private loans is the key.
January 14th, 2011 at 10:57 AM ^
Lesson 1, don't go to law school at that school in ohio. Lesson 2, Don't go to law school.
January 14th, 2011 at 11:08 AM ^
I will say that there are tons of kids who hate law school and hate the idea of practicing law after going thorugh law school.
But not every job sucks. If you work at a big firm in Chicago/New York/D.C. etc, then yea you are going to work a billion hours. I work in a midsize city and at my firm no one is at there desk past 530 except on rare occasions. The hours aren't that bad at all, 50 hours a week probably. If you like legal work, you don't have to sell your soul and never see your family to do it.
January 14th, 2011 at 11:10 AM ^
One more thing. Your first year grades matter a ton. Do everything you can to get good first year grades, it's huge. If I hadn't had good first year grades I wouldn't have gotten my job. I also wouldn't have made law review, which was also huge in getting my job. Take first year SOOOOOOOOOOOO seriously.
January 14th, 2011 at 11:15 AM ^
by Robert Miller.
It is a fantastic guide to navigating law school.
January 14th, 2011 at 11:14 AM ^
Are you hiring?