John U. Bacon weighs in on Izzo & Dantonio
On the difference between Izzo and Dantonio's situations"I would make a distinction between Izzo's situation and Dantonio's," Bacon said. "As far as I know, Coach Izzo's got three situations to answer for. One of course is Travis Walton, the one being discussed, also Adreian Payne and Keith Appling were both part of an incident with a woman that looks horrible, and what happened will be a question worth answering for sure. We don't know about that. In Dantonio's case, he's got a ten-year pattern of 16 players accused of sexual assault over this stretch.
"I'm not dismissing in any way Izzo's situation, but it seems to be at least contained. Now, how bad that is, we're going to find out. I don't see Dantonio's as contained. I see it as a pattern that has been rolling out for a decade, class after class, and that, to me, is a different situation."
http://michiganradio.org/post/bacon-izzo-dantonio-need-be-ready-some-tough-and-necessary-questions
I'm not sure why Bacon is stating that Izzo has his situation "contained". Contained, because from what we know thus far, he's only dealing with Walton and Appling/Payne? That seems like a strange choice of phrase since we just found out more info yesterday when it was reported that Walton was living with Izzo when both of his issues happened. And who were the other two basketball players involved in the gang rape with Walton? That doesn't seem like a contained situation to me. I do know that Izzo was frazzled and lost after these last two games and now he can expect to get grilled about Walton's living arrangement with him going forward.
Dantonio clearly has a massive culture and image problem to deal with and I'm fairly confident that more damning evidence will come out on the football team. And this narrative from spartys that Dantonio was so upright because he booted four assaulters last year is nonsense. Those guys were only booted from the team because of the Nassar ugliness and ESPN snooping around campus. Unlike Izzo, Dantonio has the sad luxury of not having to go in front of the media 2-3 times a week until the end of March.
January 30th, 2018 at 9:27 AM ^
before the axe falls. He won't get away without punishments, but he may have a softer landing then Dantonio (no jail time vs jail time).
January 30th, 2018 at 9:35 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 11:19 PM ^
Isn't in jail, Dantonio isn't going behind bars either. Use some logic.
January 30th, 2018 at 9:55 AM ^
I can see Izzo announcing his retirement on the eve of the tournament.
January 30th, 2018 at 10:16 AM ^
I dont think jail time is in the cards for either.
Izzo looks far more contrite. It looks like his past mistakes are really eating him up inside and Im willing to give him the benefit that it is due to the victims plight as least as much as it is his legacy going Whooosh. It looks like that guilt, together with the pressure of the very pointed questions he has no answer for, may force him out before the administration does.
Dantonio will be defiant to the end.
January 30th, 2018 at 12:44 PM ^
Izzo appears to have somewhat of a conscience.
Dantonio is pure sociopath.
January 30th, 2018 at 2:48 PM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 11:00 AM ^
There is literally nothing new in the ESPN piece, nothing. and there so far have been zero new facts presented at all. Every thing we know today we knew 2 years ago. What's changed? Nassar? This has zero to do with that. Where do the facts show Dantonio hindered any investigation anywhere? Or covered anything up? That is what Baylor and PSU did. And that would deserve his immediate firing. But all the facts say right now is that Dantonio was too lenient, if you don't count the fact that he dismissed four guys last year immediately.
January 30th, 2018 at 11:45 AM ^
I wouldn't say there is zero to do with Nassar. It seems apparent that there has been a pattern of underreporting (or non-reporting) of sexual assault committed by people associated with the MSU athletic department. The inaction on Nassar starts to make more sense when we see this broader pattern.
January 30th, 2018 at 1:58 PM ^
often does change things. People that knew about one or two incidents aren't going to feel the same way when they learn there were many more. Having ESPN do it means they are reaching a far wider audience. That puts more pressure on MSU. I disagree on whether there was anything new in ESPN's reporting. There were certainly things in there that I was unaware of and I haven't seen any contemporary references to them.
The absolute bare minimum takeaway from the story is that Dantonio was too lenient. Another very likely one is that MSU's athletic department, was breaking rules for how sexual assault complaints are handled and that Dantonio played a role in that. The way he and they handled the case last year was 180 degrees different than the past. It was done completely by the book. Clearly that happened because of the Nassar case, not because there was any change in the relevant laws or rules.
January 30th, 2018 at 8:20 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 9:34 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 8:30 AM ^
I love JUB but have to disagree
Comparing numbers isn't necessarily fair when you have 85 scholarships and 100+ players on a football roster vs. 13 scholarships and 15 players on a basketball roster.
I think the details in Izzo's situation are pretty clear and I find it difficult to say his situation is "worse" than Dantonio. This isn't like a game of golf where the higher tally means one situation is worse than the other. Both of their situations are pretty fucking bad.
Izzo's situation is going to draw more press. He's a much bigger name. That's just how it works.
January 30th, 2018 at 10:30 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 10:38 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 10:51 AM ^
The fact that people are talking about and comparing the "rates" of sexual assault is the clearest sign that both teams (and the school) have a cultural problem.
January 30th, 2018 at 1:35 PM ^
You can parse "rates" of assault, etc. and believe me the MSU football and basketball fans are bending over to do so, but to concede that these things were going on in what is now understood as a sick institutional culture casts the football/basketball programs in a whole new light. Where they were able to get away with these cover ups in the pre-Nassar world, they will not be able to post-Nasser. It ALL looks a whole lot different suddenly, and the relentlessness of these investigations going forward for the next several months I believe will have them both wilting under the heat. There are bound to be sanctions on the entire athletics program, and recruiting will absolutely be impacted until there is a clean slate.
January 30th, 2018 at 2:05 PM ^
so the "accusation rate" per player is actually worse for the basketball team over the last ten years.
Izzo only has, what, 13-14 players on the team at any given time? That's 1/6 of the guys on the football team, yet we know Appling, Payne and two others were involved, plus Walton.
I think they're both sitting in bad spots, but it looks like they're going to fight to the bitter end (and their fans are going to defend them the whole way).
The case will break if the Michigan AG gets someone or multiple people within the AD who had knowledge of cases being handled internally that involved Dantonio or Izzo making statements to that effect. If the AD employees insist the coaches weren't involved and had no knowledge of internally handled cases (because they wouldn't have been dumb enough to document their involvement), then it's possible they get through this. The investigation will have to uncover more people that corroborate Allswede's claims of complaints being handled internally.
January 30th, 2018 at 11:29 AM ^
Has been coaching at MSU for far longer than Dantonio. So you have to factor that in too with the rate of allegations he's had
January 30th, 2018 at 2:11 PM ^
there have been a lot of rules recently enacted about reporting requirements in the last ten years including title IX. I think that's the timeframe you work with here.
Izzo and lots of programs probably handled all kinds of stuff on the hush hush in the 90s and 00s.
You evaluate how they're doing under current rules, in a current environment. Plus, you could argue that if Izzo was clean until 2010 (which again, no f-ing way), and then had a spate of incidents, isn't that even worse as evidence that his prior lax discipline is starting to be taken advantage of?).
January 30th, 2018 at 8:31 AM ^
Doesn't the "containment" have to be normalized for the number of people involved with a particular program? Lots more football players than basketball players, so lots more chances for incidents relating to the football team. "Contained" ought to relate to appropriate actions being taken in response, not the number of incidents.
January 30th, 2018 at 8:38 AM ^
I wonder if he means that those instances happened in 2010/11. It wasn't handled properly, but it also doesn't appear to happen regularly under Izzo's watch. Maybe Izzo protected those players but he learned from it to be proactive instead of reactive.
Dantonio on the other hand has had reoccuring issues for 10 years now. And his handling of those instances has enabled the acts to continue.
January 30th, 2018 at 8:31 AM ^
Izzo's situation certainly seems more spinnable, even though so far he doesnt' seem to understand that he has serious questions to answer. (Payne and Appling were never charged, maybe he asked Walton to live with him because he knew he was troubled, etc.)
The part that stuns me is that nobody is picking up the Auston Robertson thread and running with it. Dantonio welcomed him to the team even though he couldn't sign an LOI because he was sitting in jail for something that was at least sex assault-adjacent. Now he's accused of rape. Dantonio has no ground to stand on for creating a safe culture on campus.
January 30th, 2018 at 8:39 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 8:50 AM ^
Piranha mentality is exactly right. I have to keep reminding myself actual human beings were hurt because of lack of institutional control from MSU leadership. It is a reminder to me as a company leader to remain vigilant in creating a safe positive culture for my team. I can't shake this knot in my stomach every time I think about just how many people knew about this unsafe culture and did nothing about it.
January 30th, 2018 at 8:46 AM ^
Austin Robertson is, essentially, a high school student that nobody ever heard of. Nobody is reporting on him because he never made it to a single game before he was booted - nobody knows who he is. Well, nobody but UM crootniks that have followed this more closely than 99.999% of the American public.
If the AG's special investigator actually does a half-decent job (doubtful, given all the MSU connections between him and Schuette), then the world will know his name.
I have my doubts about the AG/MSP investigation, though. Too many close MSU ties to both Schuette and Forsynth to be credible.
January 30th, 2018 at 9:27 AM ^
They showed a clip of him in a game. He official totals are three games played, three tackles.
Also, I'm pretty sure he was a 4* recruit.
January 30th, 2018 at 9:44 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 10:23 AM ^
Schuette is gearing up for a gubernatorial run. In light of that, there is absolutely no way he perpetuates the MSU culture and pattern of covering up sexual assault by playing the game you are suggesting. It not even in the realm of possibility.
January 30th, 2018 at 10:35 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 1:42 PM ^
State Journal reporting the special prosecutor has a close friend and political benefactor that is a big MSU booster (Secchia). Also Schuette had Dantonio write the foreword for his book. I don't like it. Of course the politicians are saying it will all be on the up and up, but these days I'm finding that most politicians aren't even bothering to speak from both sides of their mouths--they've proven that they can just outright lie straight at the public and get away with it.
January 30th, 2018 at 11:22 PM ^
Is collusion. He's been fucking useless at AG and now thinks he can run the state. Absolute joke.
January 30th, 2018 at 9:36 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 8:45 AM ^
is that at least we already knew something about the two cases involving basketball players and they went through the process no matter how tinted the process was. The football program seems shovelled all allegations under the rug, aka Baylor.
January 30th, 2018 at 8:52 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 8:58 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 9:06 AM ^
I get your point, but lets look at it... The media will never say they should be gone - maybe in an editorial at a much later date, when more 'facts' come to light. The media has reported all of this, and helped to sweep it under the rug, but it's so early in the process that no 'journalist' is going to call out the nuclear option right now.
And what fanbases have paid much attention to MSU going's-on aside from MSU and UM? The MSU fanbase is obviously tilted, right? This here blog is as obsessed about all things MSU/OSU as it is about UM. We want to know what's going on with them as a barometer of how we're doing against them. We pay attention because it means more to us than it does to the Illinois fanbase (no reason to use Ill, but no reason not to, either).
There are only two groups in the world that care enough to follow MSU sports closely enough to already know a lot of these details - MSU and UM.
This is why we believe they're already gone - we know more about it than any other fanbase out there...
January 30th, 2018 at 9:17 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 9:49 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 10:31 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 10:49 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 12:10 PM ^
DIng, Ding, Ding!!! We have a winner. The core issue here is MSU creating an environment ripe for bad behavior. The Payne/Appling case is a perfect example. ZERO punishment? Other players on the hoops and football teams heard about what happened, as did the women of MSU. What sort of message does ZERO punishment send to other players?? What message does it send to young women as it relates to the type of support they can expect to find should they be assaulted?
I will take a shot at answering: It sends a message to the players that they can behave poorly with no repurcussions. Not good. It also sends a message to potential victims that they are swimming at their own risk, knowing full well there are sharks in the water.
January 30th, 2018 at 1:47 PM ^
Exactly. This gets to the heart of the matter, as far as I'm concerned. A thug culture--especially cultivated by Dantonio. Narduzzi: "We try for unnecessary roughness on every play." Dantonio is a fucking jerk and his players took their cue from him.
January 30th, 2018 at 9:50 AM ^
I agree with your general sentiment. And every program has issues, for sure, but I do think MSU has been pretty loose with disciplinary issues for a while.
I recognize that UM has had similar issues in the past, but not as many as far as I recall. And I've also been pleased with how Harbaugh has handled those. Hoke on the other hand, definitely not, and UM/Hoke deserves criticism for that.
But I also think searching for "proof" is likely going to be elusive. Sexual assault cases are often very difficult to proove, especially from a legal perspective. This is a point that a lot of MSU fans are hanging their hat on right now and misses the point entirely.
There is a pretty strong witness in Allswede since she was involved in the process as a whole. What would likely tip the scales is some of the claimants (victims/survivors) coming forward.
January 30th, 2018 at 12:15 PM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 9:17 AM ^
I'm not calling for their heads because if what has been reported is true, just firing Izzo and Dantonio is not enough. MSU and the Athletic Department there has proved over and over again to be completely in control of the institution while purposely skirting and/or breaking the law and protecting sexual abusers above all. Michigan State Athletics has no place in the B1G, it has no place in the NCAA. Anything shy of that is an afront to the countless victims. If the whole athletic department is kept around, keeping around Izzo/Dantonio isn't that far of a stretch either.
January 30th, 2018 at 9:29 AM ^
My first reaction was that they were gone, but both seem to be relatively defiant, Dantonio in particular (which I find odd, given it's a horribly kept secret of all the character issues).
I have heard it in another spot or two, but I'm also not convinced that both of them go. There's certainly a possibility it happens, but I don't think it's a foregone conclusion at this point in time. There's a ton of smoke, and a small fire. But there hasn't been much indication that MSU is not going to fight that fire for their two "legendary coaches."
January 30th, 2018 at 9:54 AM ^
I don't think they are gone. Maybe mildly reprimanded. MSU will fight tooth and nail for these guys. And mark my words, unless the investigation turns up something catastrophic they'll play the 'wait it out' game. If Mark delivers a B1G title two years from now, you will never hear about this again.
I don't think it's right. I don't think it's okay. But I think that they will evade. I'm not sure that the guy set up by the AD is unbiased. And unless someone outside (like Federally, given the NCAA connection) gets involved, I think theyw ill play the waiting game, drawing this out till people stop noticing due to fatigue. Then they will end up with an apology and call it good. Spartan's will.
All this makes me really sad.
January 30th, 2018 at 10:58 AM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 11:10 AM ^
And given the hero's send off. He's probably closer to the end of his career anyway.