OT: UVA suspends all fraternities after Rolling Stones investigative report on gangrape
Not sure this is an appropriate topic, but it could definitely have widespread implications. And, UVA's president is Teresa Sullivan (former UofM provost). Link: http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/uva-suspends-fraternities-following-rolling-stone-campus-rape-investigation-20141122
Anyway, for anyone interested in the original Rolling Stone report: http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/a-rape-on-campus-20141119
It's definitely a...strong move. I'm sure it will be critiqued in the coming weeks. Could lead us down a slippery slope--a pretty extreme move rather than an attempt to reform anything.
EDIT: this comes a week after WVU suspended all greek life following the death of a student related to hazing
http://www.nola.com/education/index.ssf/2014/11/after_pledges_death_west_virgi.html
November 23rd, 2014 at 1:58 PM ^
November 23rd, 2014 at 2:15 PM ^
November 23rd, 2014 at 3:01 PM ^
Let us not forget, though, that at many schools they have not.
November 23rd, 2014 at 2:20 PM ^
At my frat at CMU, the year after I graduated.....they raped some chick and lost their chapter. I was only in a frat for 2 years and met my g/f there who was a Zeta, which after that I was not heavily involved. That incident pissed me off and soured me on frats, but I knew the guys who did it and it did not surprise me at all. It is despicable and it happens at every school.
Fathers should really be careful in letting their girls join sororities. They are easy pickings for frat boys.
November 23rd, 2014 at 3:00 PM ^
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November 23rd, 2014 at 4:25 PM ^
Where? I dont see how you get that. If anything Im coming down on dumbass frat boys and their manipulation (and sometimes worse) of defenseless women.
November 23rd, 2014 at 5:16 PM ^
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November 23rd, 2014 at 8:00 PM ^
I didnt say that. You and the other guy are putting words in my mouth and making assumptions.
November 24th, 2014 at 10:13 AM ^
I don't think you are a bad guy. We are on the same side that rape is despicable. Some of what you wrote comes off as blaming the victims because they might make themselves too easy of targets without a man to correct them. I don't think you fully mean that but this language is part of the problem in the perception of crimes.
"Fathers should really be careful in letting their girls join sororities. They are easy pickings for frat boys."
-I don't think you intend to say that girls joining sororities is why they are so easily raped by frat boys. You can see where many would read into this statement "if only those girls had a father to protect them from sororities they wouldn't be so easily raped" why not a "parent" why does it have to be a "father" protecting these girls from their own choices which in turn make them more easily rapeable? Furthermore, why is it the sororities' fault that the boys in frats choose to rape and commit heinous crimes? It is not even a little bit the fault of the sorority that some boy or boys prey on them. They have nothing to do with it. Just like it was not even a little bit your fault that your frat brothers raped a girl and you knew enough before hand to write that you weren't surprised when it happened. Your statement, however originally intended, suggests that you needed to tell that girl not to join a sorority so that your frat brothers wouldn't, as you already feared, rape her. If only she had a father like you are going to be one day, your frat brothers would have raped someone else and she would have been safe. Oh wait, that kinda misses the issue of those boys being rapists in the first place doesn't it?
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November 23rd, 2014 at 8:48 PM ^
November 24th, 2014 at 10:17 AM ^
That is quite the straw man argument you've created there isn't it? Of course nobody is saying any time a father disciplines or guides his daughter away from sleaze bags he is being sexist. Literally nobody is saying that.
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November 23rd, 2014 at 2:57 PM ^
At U V A and at the military academies, makes me wonder whether any of the "proud" boys clubs are worth a fuck. How much of this shit is perpetuated by the fact that previous classes ( now in positions of leadership and sponsorship) did the same thing?
November 23rd, 2014 at 3:46 PM ^
While I thought Mary Sue was ignorant in desiring all on-campus residency requirement for all years. After observing some british housing models and their sucess, It seems we would be better off with this style.
November 23rd, 2014 at 3:04 PM ^
November 23rd, 2014 at 3:29 PM ^
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November 23rd, 2014 at 4:19 PM ^
Name an ethical statement made or action performed by a frat in the name of "fraternity" that couldn't have been without the frat. And name, if you can (this is easier) a wicked action that could only be done in the frat "culture."
there just isn't much place for them in civilized society, IMO
November 23rd, 2014 at 4:33 PM ^
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November 23rd, 2014 at 4:47 PM ^
so, without the frat context, the pledging scenario or the hazing culture, these guys would have thought it ok to gang rape a girl and somehow found a way to do it anyway (allegedly)?
November 23rd, 2014 at 5:24 PM ^
Having been through both Greek and non Greek hazing and pledging, I can say with certainty that my frat was much more tame (read: no hazing at all) than the latter
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November 23rd, 2014 at 5:39 PM ^
November 23rd, 2014 at 5:42 PM ^
But I think the Greek system specifically at UVA has become so entrenched and enmeshed in this rape culture that a suspension is absolutely called for while the university tries to figure out a way to deal with it. If I were in the UVA admin, I would make each fraternity and sorority reapply for authorization and require each one of them to show a rape prevention plan that they are going to put in place to keep this from happening again. And I would have a probationary period where they're closely monitored to ensure that they stick to it.
November 23rd, 2014 at 5:51 PM ^
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November 23rd, 2014 at 6:29 PM ^
no one is arguing that frats contriubte 100% of all rape or hazing incidents, nor that removing them will prevent all future such incidents on earth.
but within the contrained borders of a university community (or universities as a whole) the greek system generates a culture more inclined to such behavior that would never remotely be considered tolerable among peers (college educated young adults) outside of the frat culture.
is it possible that individuals could conspire to do this without a gree system in place? sure. but there wouldn't be an existing institutional structure that is set up to shelter/shield/normalize- these activities. And there certainly wouldn't be an organizational culture that would defend (<--lack of a better word) the behavior on their behalf.
Imagine there was a group of 7 males who just got together to conspire to commit this act (w/o a greek system involved)? we would be asking what types of conditions these people were in to think that this was an OK thing to do.
November 23rd, 2014 at 7:18 PM ^
Your argument only holds for the specific UVA greek system and UVA's campus culture. The answer is not to eliminate greek like from society entirely as you suggest in your OP because every college campus has a different culture and a different greek culture.
I do hope this inspires other universities to take a second look at their own campuses and greek houses to make sure they are not guilty the of same issues that caused UVA's problems.
November 23rd, 2014 at 5:41 PM ^
November 23rd, 2014 at 10:15 PM ^
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November 23rd, 2014 at 4:48 PM ^
In this particular case (UVA), it may well be that the fraternities are especially bad. Certainly it seems clear that a thorough investigation is required. But it is silly to think that getting rid of frats will solve this problem. While frats might not be necessary "in civilized society" (I'm not sure that we qualify, to be honest), what's needed is broader reform and oversight, and not just of frats.
I say this as someone who isn't a member of a frat, most of my friends at M weren't in frats, and I'm not a big fan of them in general. But banning frats is unlikely to be a good solution to the problem universally (although I'm willing to concede that it might be a good idea in the case of UVA).
November 23rd, 2014 at 5:44 PM ^
November 23rd, 2014 at 6:54 PM ^
Right, sanctioning (recognizing, not punishing) fraternities brings them into the fold. It is good for fraternities to have this association, and for universities to offer that option to students. I believe the only U.S. president to attend Michigan joined a fraternity. The history goes back many years, and fraternities were opposed by university administrations even in their inception.
November 23rd, 2014 at 7:07 PM ^
I also worry that if UVA (or some other school) bans frats then some people will pat themselves on the back and feel that the problem has been solved when in fact it changes very little.
November 23rd, 2014 at 5:30 PM ^
You could make the same comment about literally any organized group of people.
November 23rd, 2014 at 6:54 PM ^
sure, there are tons of groups that one could make that comment about. but the point is, in this context of university greek life:
With or without the greek system you would have good people doing good acts and evil people doing evil acts. But for (previously apparently) good people to commit evil acts, that takes an institutionalized system of peer acceptance of such acts. That institutionalized system is the greek system.*
*again, in this context. I'm sure other institutions would lead to similar situations- sports clubs, etc.
November 23rd, 2014 at 7:19 PM ^
If it can apply elsewhere what exactly was the point of saying a fraternity shouldn't exist in civilized culture? There is absolutely nothing inherent about a fraternity that says "institutionalize evil acts".
November 23rd, 2014 at 7:34 PM ^
fine, shut them all down.
just like the garbage mashers on the detention level.
November 23rd, 2014 at 8:03 PM ^
So does your negative opinion of organized groups that have members who do bad things extend to ALL groups or just the ones you personally object to?
For some reason I have a hunch that if someone were to make the same statement you just made about abolishing fraternities about a particular religion that was populated with extremists who liked to blow themselves up while committing mass murder, you'd have a fit.
November 23rd, 2014 at 8:24 PM ^
Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Islam is at the top of the list
November 23rd, 2014 at 8:30 PM ^
I guess this thread will be deleted now
November 23rd, 2014 at 8:34 PM ^
I stand corrected.
November 23rd, 2014 at 8:54 PM ^
I mean are you that stupid
November 23rd, 2014 at 8:29 PM ^
I think it relates more to the culture associated with frats--such as the culture associated with extreme, religious sects. It's undeniable that fraternities, through popular culture and actual behaviors, promote some very harmful deviant behavior, from what happens during pledging to what happens at parties. I wasn't in a frat when I was in college, but I was appalled by some of the comments women made about frats (e.g. Guys from Frat X are nice, and don't try to get you drunk so they can sleep with you).
This is a deviant culture embedded within a university, and serves a purpose (and I don't mean the nominal purpose frats proclaim) that perpetuates these extreme behaviors. I'm not for abolishing fraternities, but maybe, as is done with extreme religious groups, they need much closer monitoring and swifter, harsher punishments from school administrations until these behaviors are no longer normalized.
November 23rd, 2014 at 11:02 PM ^
Holding people accountable?
The school I attended was a small private school with a very strong Greek culture. The school was notoriously strict with Greek organizaitons. Kicking bad fraternities off campus, taking homes away from fraternities and turning them into campus housing, rewarding well behaved Greek organizations with improved housing options.
It worked.
November 23rd, 2014 at 5:59 PM ^
The sad state of human empathy in today's youth is appalling. Blame video games, blame bad parenting, blame kids on meds like adderall, blame anyone and everyone because this story, as sad as it is, is just one in a long list of horrible stories involving today's youth and their complete and total lack of human empathy.
November 23rd, 2014 at 6:13 PM ^
I don't think the young people of today are any less empathetic than any generation that preceded them. The issues this article raises go back a very, very long time.
November 23rd, 2014 at 6:16 PM ^
While this is a very terrible situation, as a member of "today's youth" (and I only represent myself) please don't act as if all these terrible problems and campus issues never happened until the last 10-15 years. I know it is popular to decry the behaviors of the youth--Juan Williams echoed sentiments similar to yours at my alma mater--but let's not act as if this wasn't commonplace when you went to college, whether you remember or want to remember.
November 23rd, 2014 at 7:56 PM ^
of rape has decreased in the last decade or so. the difference is people actually care now, whereas in the past nobody cared about that shit.
November 24th, 2014 at 4:43 AM ^
November 23rd, 2014 at 7:48 PM ^
Not to rain on the debate going on here, but this seems way too OT for the season. I recognize it's about college and that Michigan is a college, but the link stops there. This thread is just collapsing into some arguments that are tripping along the edge of "no politics." Not to be a dick. But it's a sports blog. Thoughts are obviously with the victims, but given the hot button topic, can we get this frozen?
November 23rd, 2014 at 8:01 PM ^
HOT TAKES.
edit: as an aside, i kinda figured it would be ok only b/c this season doesn't have a lot to talk about anymore. in fact, i'd rather think about anything other than the game next weekend.
November 23rd, 2014 at 10:36 PM ^
special, wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be a total fabrication ala Duke lacrosse.