ESPN - “What college football coaches are saying about sign stealing”
Interesting article posted this morning on ESPN: https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38727764/what-college-football-coaches-saying-sign-stealing
A bit more balanced of reporting than what we’ve seen over the weekend, giving more voice to coaches that think this isn’t a big deal. Still quite a bit of grumbling featured in the article but the tone is a departure from the pearl clutching going on from Thamel, Mandel, etc.
October 24th, 2023 at 10:04 AM ^
Or how about just be friggin simple and send your subs in with plays or however they called plays long before holding up signs. This shit is a big joke at this point. We all knew they were after Harbaugh when they made him stop satellite camps and busted Michigan for doing too many jumping jacks after practice. This has been coming for a long time. Whatever Harbaugh did to the NCAA they've been attacking him ever since. You'd figure they'd be fine with Michigan being good again since its a top program that generates tons of money.
October 24th, 2023 at 10:07 AM ^
Signs and other direct visual communication from the sidelines is what enabled uptempo offenses (and the defenses to counter them)... which is why they (signs/signals) are so pervasive now as opposed to 20+ years ago.
October 24th, 2023 at 10:13 AM ^
There's the rub though. Every offense has a two-minute drill, and some go tempo the whole game.
Even if you have your opponent's signs, it takes extra steps to use them. You need to read the opponent's call, communicate it to the DC, dial up your answer to it, communicate that to the defense, get the defense set. . . a lot of that is SOP, but the first two steps are exclusive to sign stealing, arguably even the third. So you're going to increase your operational complexity. . . while the opponent's going tempo?? And what if the opponent switches the play at the line?
This may have been relevant like twenty years ago, but today, how would you even capitalize on the information?
October 24th, 2023 at 10:39 AM ^
I'm not arguing that trying to capture & counter an opponent's sign is any kind of significant benefit in this day and age - far from it, in fact. There are so many signs - each to a specific skill group within offenses and defenses these days - that it would be nearly impossible to try and counter them in real time... even if their encryption had been successfully broken in advance.
I'm just pointing out people are using them now as opposed to running in the plays as of old.
Any claims about yielding an "advantage" are almost entirely bogus, which is why it is rather sad that this young Conner kid (mid 20s, right?) may have just ended his career in college sports over something so relatively meaningless.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:33 AM ^
You forget the change in the substitution rule slows down the play which allows the defense to slowly sub personnel, figure out the play-call and adjust accordingly. The up-tempo is not as much "up-tempo" anymore unless the offense keeps the same personnel in the game (very seldom). Knowing a team's signs is a HUGE advantage.
October 24th, 2023 at 12:49 PM ^
Sounds a little like trying to count cards in blackjack, which I have tried many times to do. It's not easy because dealers are typically pretty fast and you have to count quickly and accurately. And your subsequent moves are based on a bunch of scenarios which you need to have memorized. Counting is glorified in movies as some get rich quick thing but in reality it's a very slow and tedious walk up the mountain with a lot of pitfalls along the way. Counting is a mental grind and it's not much fun. Plus, I like to partake in the free drinks while playing and actually, ya know, have some fun. Don't drink and count.
October 24th, 2023 at 10:36 AM ^
Because every school's sign-stealing program is above average and no coach wants to give up his advantage.
October 24th, 2023 at 9:29 AM ^
This story is like catnip for online people because everyone gets to play true crime detective. It is time for people to take a step and breathe. It is likely something occured but the competitive advantage gained was minimal. The only people suggesting punishment this season are Stew Mandel and Buckeyes but that would deviate from the stated NCAA protocol and leave them massively exposed to a lawsuit. If the NCAA follows protocol and punishes Michigan, the AD will likely take it as is. However, if the NCAA violates stated protocol, that is something I could see a beaurcrat like Warde taking offense to and acting on.
October 24th, 2023 at 10:49 AM ^
I think the vacating of wins is lawsuit worthy as that is grossly unfair to the players and coaches who worked hard for those achievements. I expect and demand that UM fight that tooth and nail.
October 24th, 2023 at 10:59 AM ^
I wouldn't hold my breath on Warde fighting something that was come to by a by the book investigation. Again, to get to the post of AD you have to be a bureaucrat at heart, and if the NCAA violates the process I could see that agitating him in a way that causes action.
October 24th, 2023 at 10:53 AM ^
reddit CFB is brutal right now. Everyone is worked up and thinks every minor detail is some explosive finding - reality is going to be much more boring but no one wants to hear that right now
October 24th, 2023 at 11:36 AM ^
Sorry my friend....I disagree - knowing what the offense is running is a HUGE advantage. No different than Astros knowing what pitches are coming.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:45 AM ^
The NCAA instituted the rule as a cost saving measure and almost nixed it 2 years ago because the rules committee admitted it provides a minimal competitive advantage. I am merely quoting the NCAA.
October 24th, 2023 at 12:09 PM ^
Understood but please remember, the NCAA receives much of their opinion-based information from their membership and more specifically, what AD's and Head Coaches say.....very seldom is it someone objectively "standing on their own two feet" making the call without any input from the athletic programs. The bottom line is someone sending spies to games to film sidelines for an entire game and then bringing it back to a fleet of "analysts" to break down and decipher is shady....anyone with a brain can see that. The question is how many other schools do it....because it ain't just us. And that right there is why the NCAA considers it "minimal".
October 24th, 2023 at 12:08 PM ^
To decode the signs in real time and get that communicated to your players and have them get lined up and ready to go in 15-20 seconds would be something pretty unbelievable. Also it's not like they're just holding up 1 sign. They have a different sign for each position group plus dummy signs.
If they had minutes between plays that would be pretty amazing still.
The biggest change since 2020 ended was bringing Mike Mcdonald and Jesse Minter. Nfl level coaching vs not good coaching.
October 24th, 2023 at 3:12 PM ^
Just read the link someone posted to the Lions talking about this. Goff calls an audible, the defense yells out 'its a screen!' It is a screen...the offense gets 20 yards.
October 24th, 2023 at 9:30 AM ^
Hugh Freeze, Lane Kiffin, Saban, Jimbo, Urban, Pete Carroll, and Bobby Petrino all think this is highly unethical and immoral. /s
October 24th, 2023 at 9:41 AM ^
You forgot Rick Pitino. Not a football coach, but the epitome of morals and ethics in college coaching.
October 24th, 2023 at 10:16 AM ^
I loved Rick Pitino in Devils Advocate!
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October 24th, 2023 at 10:08 AM ^
Don't forget to add in The Senator and EL A & M's next coach, Urbz.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:40 AM ^
That same group also thinks brown bagging and Pay for Play are “tradition” in the SEC ad ACC.
October 24th, 2023 at 9:37 AM ^
Well, we know what Ryan Day says about it. His team lost because we were stealing signs, it was cold, his team was sick because of our sign stealing, Hassan Haskins ran through their tough defense because we stole their signs, Donovan Edwards ran through their defense because we stole their signs. They had to bring the house most every play because we stole their signs. They have only had one bad half because we stole their signs. Lou Holtz questioned OSUs toughness because we stole their signs. What did I leave out?
October 24th, 2023 at 10:19 AM ^
He has to dye his beard because our sign stealing gave him gray hair?
October 24th, 2023 at 10:22 AM ^
Cryin' Day
October 24th, 2023 at 10:59 AM ^
Third Base!
Seriously, Day is giving the PSU Excuses shirt a run for its money in just two years.
October 24th, 2023 at 9:37 AM ^
Make it stop! Beat Purdue
October 24th, 2023 at 10:07 AM ^
I feel bad for Purdue. With two weeks of the players hearing about this BS they're pissed.
October 24th, 2023 at 9:37 AM ^
"I'm going to admit to this," said Berry, who was last a head coach at Louisiana Monroe in 2015, "I would have fans that would go to opponents' games and film their sidelines and film just on their phones, their smartphones and then send me that stuff." But, he added, "I didn't look at it because that was wrong."
Oh really, and were you just holding those drugs for a friend? And those magazines under the mattress, you only read those for the articles, right?
"It's been a problem for a long time. We need to resolve it."
Has it been around for a long time? Absolutely. Is it a problem? Does it need to be resolved? That is less clear, I think. If it was such a "problem," there'd be no shortage of energy and consensus to fix it. The fact that there ISN'T is telling. Too many people view sign stealing as part of the game, too many coaches enjoy doing it.
"No one's that good," a Big Ten coordinator said.
MSU had fair public warning and it didn't help them. OSU admitted to changing their signs specifically for Michigan in 2022 and they lost by more than 2021. When teams keep failing to get into so much as goal-to-go situations against Michigan, even AFTER being warned, then maybe it's time to admit that yes, someone is that good. And that someone is Michigan.
October 24th, 2023 at 9:42 AM ^
"No one's that good."
This one made me laugh. What a great compliment to this team!
October 24th, 2023 at 11:46 AM ^
I never heard "no one's that good" when Ohio State was dominating the conference. Because, yes, they were that good.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:33 AM ^
"No one's that good," a Big Ten coordinator said.
"There's no way they'd be smart enough to beat my Speed in Space offense," he added.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:55 AM ^
"No one's that good"
Ohio State once won a conference championship game 59-0. Are we gonna take a deeper look into that?
October 24th, 2023 at 11:51 PM ^
Would this be a good time to point out that Berry, the one coach who's gone on record as refusing to look at advance scouting video, had a career record in FBS of 33-78?
October 24th, 2023 at 9:40 AM ^
The way all of this has been reported and reacted to seems wayyy overboard. I've never seen anything like it. Everybody is jumping to some sort of conclusion when honest-to-God, I'm not even trying to play dumb or obtuse, I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the big deal is and why people are losing their minds? Is it just because it's Michigan?
October 24th, 2023 at 9:49 AM ^
It's because most of what we are hearing is from OSU slappies. They cannot fathom that they can get beatdown as much as they have the last two years for how tough they are as a team (according only to their coach). This whole thing is ridiculous!
October 24th, 2023 at 10:36 AM ^
And I learned that Will Compton is big, big mad about this. Now he knows why Nebraska got trounced so badly.
Or, maybe being a team that has to scratch and claw their way past Northwestern might just completely suck.
October 24th, 2023 at 10:01 AM ^
If Michigan had their signs stolen my only thought would be, "Fix your opsec you idiots."
October 24th, 2023 at 10:07 AM ^
I feel the same way. The amount of people who don't know what is currently legal and what Michigan actually did is making social media unusable right now. The competitive advantage Michigan got from doing this was slim to none and the NCAA Board of Directors literally admitted to it:
The Board of Directors Infractions Process Committee requested that the Legislative Committee Modernization of the Rules Subcommittee focus its rules modernization efforts on identifying rules that no longer serve the needs of the membership and the 21st century student-athlete, and recommending modifications to or the elimination of such rules. Specifically, livestreams of intercollegiate competition and prerecorded game film are readily available in the digital age. The minimal competitive advantage gained by scouting future opponents in-person is outweighed by the monitoring and enforcement burdens of ensuring compliance with the legislation
But people are acting like we somehow telepathically new every play and that we should get the death penalty for it
October 24th, 2023 at 11:11 AM ^
You should leak this to Thamel and Mandel! Show a fire burning in the background so they can sensationalize it!!!!!!!!!
October 24th, 2023 at 12:20 PM ^
The NCAA itself has acknowledged, sign-stealing affords "minimal competitive advantage."
So, the fair Michigan punishment should be to go back and dock us a field goal from the score of each of our games.
OK, dock us a touchdown just to be safe.
OK, dock us two touchdowns just to be safe.
OK, dock us three touchdowns just to be safe.
What's that you say? Still doesn't matter.
October 24th, 2023 at 10:17 AM ^
It's because the media has learned how to create a frenzy through how they frame and tell stories. Not just sports but politics as well. They're putting on a gladiator show, with heroes and villains, and taking sides is deeply ingrained in us. All for the almighty dollar. We're not immune to it, either. All those Mel Tucker threads had a ton of interest and comments.
October 24th, 2023 at 10:24 AM ^
This is exactly right. Reporters know they have two of the largest fanbases in the world completely enthralled in this news and they will get clicks galore no matter what they put out. Most of what has been reported is pure speculation but is being reported as facts. This fuels both fanbases.
October 24th, 2023 at 12:48 PM ^
I've literally had opposing fanbases get mad at me on social media for saying "if the allegations prove to bet true" as if this investigation isn't brand new and all of the evidence produced so far is just allegations and hearsay. They're treating everything said so far as fact and are cheering for the hammer to come down
October 24th, 2023 at 10:25 AM ^
Come on now, the Mel Tugger saga had far more organic drama and intrigue than this. All of the outrage about this is a massive reach due to sensationalism combined with the appalling dearth of media literacy in the US. A college football coach sexually harassing an anti-sexual harassment counselor by cranking his hog on the phone with her, unsolicited, and losing tens of millions of dollars as a result? That's some dark, twisted shit straight out of "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia" - no embellishment necessary.
October 24th, 2023 at 9:41 AM ^
Some teams push the boundaries more than others, but ultimately coaches say it's not hard to tell when you've been skunked.
A former head coach said it's simple. If a defense blows up your bubble screen three times in a row, chances are they have your number and you better switch things up and hope your players don't get confused.
It sounds to me like every team was stealing Michigan's signs in years past. Otherwise, how do you explain that they stopped all our great RBs when they tried to run into a stacked box over and over again. Stealing signs is the only answer that makes sense.
/s
October 24th, 2023 at 9:46 AM ^
For reasons no one can understand, Josh Gattis' signs are uniquely stealable. And it is definitely his signs getting stolen, and not that Gattis is a predictable idiot.
October 24th, 2023 at 10:02 AM ^
Gattis wasn't 27-for-27.
October 24th, 2023 at 9:42 AM ^
I think many coaches are being soft on it, because it happens a lot all over.
October 24th, 2023 at 11:36 AM ^
Tuck wouldn't be soft on it, because--
Oh, never mind.
October 24th, 2023 at 9:46 AM ^
If Michigan is 6-2 no-one gives a shit about this. The investigation is typical in-conference vendetta where they throw everything at you because you're at the top of the league and they can't deal with it. If you're a top dog, you gotta expect that they'll pull that crap on you.