FWIW ESPN's College Football Final Crew criticizes Borges.
It's not my intention with this thread to start another who's fault was it thread about last night. Perhaps I'm naive in that, but I'm just pasing along that when I watched College Football Final, Rece Davis, Mark May and Holtz all agreed that in their opinion the offensive game plan called for way too much pocket passing from Denard, and they criticized Borges by name, particularly May. IMO May is wildly inconsistent and Holtz is a parody (I admit to liking Rece Davis) so that critique does nothing for me, but since it's a national show I thought I'd pass it on. As for me, 6 turnovers does not necesarily equal poor game plan, but WTF. I think there may be some strategy changes made in the bye week.
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:38 PM ^
Other than that Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?
September 23rd, 2012 at 5:34 PM ^
but for all those damn INTs.
September 23rd, 2012 at 2:45 PM ^
I've never seen a Coordinator get a free pass like Borges is getting from this fan base. I've seen this fanbase crush countless coaches for much less than this but Al seems to be the exception.
Can someone possibly tell me what I am missing? I'm not really for him or against him..I'm a guy that will slightly wait until a Pro Style big Arm QB is here. But i will also say his lack of adjustments for the QB and personnel he has now scares me for a guy with 20 plus years under his belt.
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:11 PM ^
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:40 PM ^
September 23rd, 2012 at 11:41 PM ^
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:21 PM ^
September 23rd, 2012 at 5:20 PM ^
Borges didn't have many friends here after that game. I was never a huge Borges person, but I'm basing that on him not staying at one place for a long number of years. If you're that good, I would think that you should be able to stay one place for a long time, especially since he was in the SEC for a while. I don't know if he was calling the offensive plays in his previous stops, but it seems like the playcalling is an issue, not necessarily the plays/formations they run.
Considering the length of his previous stops didn't exceed five years, odds are Shane will have a new OC during his tenure. Who knows what the offense will look like then.
September 23rd, 2012 at 2:46 PM ^
September 23rd, 2012 at 2:46 PM ^
ESPN is wrong.
September 23rd, 2012 at 2:46 PM ^
Two major complaints from last night:
1.) Under center way more than we should have been, particurarly in the first half. (Didn't we learn that last year the first three quarters vs Notre Dame?)
2.) The Vincent Smith call was stupid. I think it was first down? We should not have our back up RB throwing passes in the red zone.
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:38 PM ^
September 24th, 2012 at 8:41 AM ^
More like six feet... That throw was turrible.
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:39 PM ^
dileo was wiiiiiiiide open on that call. vinny just got a dude in his face and tried to make a play throwing it way behind the reciever had he thrown it anywhere near the sideline that play was an easy touchdown
September 23rd, 2012 at 4:12 PM ^
Regarding your point about last year's game and being under center too much, about 70% of the plays in the first three quarters of last year's game were from the shotgun. When they started stringing together some drives laced with the I-Form, things began to happen. About 80% of our passing came in the last 20 minutes of the game that time. Further, Denard has been shown to be quite efficient under center (something on the order of a 65% completion rate) - the fact that it would tend to make Denard less of a contributor in the run game is one of Borges' quandaries, and probably one of the better ones he has had in an offense. It's been mentioned in other threads, but 13-25 for 138 yards last night for about 10 yards per completion is indicative of how the offense - save for turnovers - really was giving ND headaches otherwise. Under center works just fine by the numbers.
September 23rd, 2012 at 2:53 PM ^
Borges ran Denard and he fumbled...he threw the ball and he was picked off. I guess there could've been more Fitzgerald carries, but you can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit
September 23rd, 2012 at 8:37 PM ^
I hope you're not speaking from experience?!!!
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:02 PM ^
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:02 PM ^
does Denard have to fit some mold of pocket passer/plant his feet and throw like all prototype Pro style qbs? I admit there is method to that theory, but there is also a point you take one of the most electric players in college football and design an offensive game plan around what he does best....OR put Gardener in at QB who is more of the pro style passer with a respectable arm...and put DENARD at wide out with end arounds, bubble screens, and plays like the gardener sweep/pass play in the first series
. If Denard gets the ball on an end around and is full tilt when he hits the line of scrimmage with the ball...I can't think of many players in the NCAA who can legitimately stop him one on one...and once you start to load up the line to do so, you expose other weaknesses by compensating.
Sorry I honestly believe there are plenty of fingers to be pointed.
September 23rd, 2012 at 11:40 PM ^
September 24th, 2012 at 12:12 PM ^
So you don't think that Borges has alterred his offensive philosophy with Denard? I think that is laughable. Let me ask you another question, let's say he did design an offense around Denard...that means next year or following two more years he is doing a complete overhaul of the offense again to comform to his preferences...how patient would you be then. He is taking concepts that benefit Denard while at the same time trying to develop Denard to posible run some of his offense and help Denard develop into a future NFL quarterback. You do not design an offense around 1 person...because when he gets hurt, or graduates, you have no offence
September 24th, 2012 at 12:22 PM ^
you undermine yourself but making silly personal attacks. I mean, if I said your "guru" built his rep on the legs of Steve Slayton and Pat White, that wouldn't be fair. No coach is enough of a genius to look good with bad players.
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:04 PM ^
I think we need to run it out of the Ace formation more frequently. Almost every time we came out in that set, the ND linebackers were all over the PA pass. Yeah, the offensive line gave Denard a lot of time to throw, but ND was dropping linebackers into zone coverages that allowed the Irish secondary too outperform our previous expectations. I was surprised that wasn't one of our second half adjustments, running Fitz out of the Ace when ND consistently was playing the pass would have probably been a good way to earn yardage in a secure manner.
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:05 PM ^
The people who think Borges deserves no blame probably didn't watch Denard's sophmore season.
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:18 PM ^
Everyone that has a different opinion from you has clearly just started watching Michigan football and, hence, as less of a fan then you. Is that really what you are saying? Come on TheGhostofYost.
Note, I don't really have a opinion on the 'who is to blame' question, but I think we can have a civil debate on this.
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:42 PM ^
September 23rd, 2012 at 5:44 PM ^
that 2011 OSU game where we ran 50 times and passed 17? ya, that one.
September 24th, 2012 at 12:28 PM ^
We ran 41 times in 2010, for a yard less a carry. The difference was we were 16 of 33 in 2010, and completed 14 of those 17 in 2011 (for almost 10 yards a play). The fact that you are hurting them on the pass means they have to cover it, which opens up what you want to do, and that's run. And in return running opens up the pass, but you have to show you can pass first, because in a Denard offense, they're going to try and take away the run first. When Denard can't beat them in the air, you get Notre Dame. When he does, they have to play honest, and you get Ohio State.
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:42 PM ^
September 24th, 2012 at 11:16 AM ^
First-year starting QBs tend to make horrible decisions. What's your point?
September 23rd, 2012 at 11:12 PM ^
Among the four of you who responded, you would think at least one would get the point. Oh well.
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:29 PM ^
Thought about it...and it is not Borges fault. He is saddled with trying to make a kid who is not a good QB, fit in to what he and Brady want to do. As for the Vince Smith throw, my only problem with the play was that as I recall it was called on 1st down, and Id like to have seen it on 2nd down.
The game plan was sound...in fact ...it was excellent because ND was stopping the run early and they had to throw the ball...or at least try to. WRs were open.
It is time to switch to Bellomy at QB and put Denard elsewhere. People disagree with this now, but I guarantee that after 2 B10 losses similar to this, they will understand why the change needs to be made in order for the program to get better. Right now Denard at QB is holding them back as crazy as that is to say, its true.
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:55 PM ^
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:35 PM ^
what else would you do? ND had a supposedly weak secondary and a strong front 7, logically you would gameplan to thow the ball. ND was getting a lot of edge pressure on most of the rollouts borges called so really what else could he have done? the best drives seemed to be denard in the pocket with more of a max protect look to keep the pressure off him.
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:37 PM ^
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:41 PM ^
I blame The Knowledge. He predicted the win and it didnt happen. Is this another alter universe dimension problem?
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:46 PM ^
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:56 PM ^
Offensively, we controlled the line of scrimmage for a good portion of the game and owned the time of possession.
Defensively we looked like a different team altogether.
Despite the turnovers and the outcome, this team took a step FORWARD last night. Let's treat the six turnovers as what they are. No one left on the schedule that's that much better than us. We are going to get better and be a handful for every team from here on out.
September 23rd, 2012 at 3:57 PM ^
Its not like just one person is to blame. The whole team is too blame. Denard executed poorly. Borges got too creative. The receivers didnt get much separation. No one really did anything exceptional. Even the defense, who played great all game, couldnt make a stop when they had to.
I have confidence that they learn from this and move forward. While it would have been great to beat our rival, winning the B1G is really what matters given that after the Alabama debacle, any shot of national honors was out the window.
September 23rd, 2012 at 5:27 PM ^
the one regarding the defense not making a stop when they had to. Yes, you did admit the defense played great all game (which they did), but to say they choked when the pressure was on I think is unfair. We turned the ball over SIX TIMES and gave up one touchdown. There was an incredible amount of pressure on that defense the entire game because of that, with little-to-no momentum on our side on ND's home turf, and they came away with 13 points when they should have had 30+. I mean hell, even when we kept vomiting out turnovers on offense I had some hope we'd eek (sp?) out a win just because our D kept stonewalling them and get the ball back for us.
The defense 100% did their job. There certainly some mistakes (hmmm PI in the redzone = no good) but dude, they did a helluva job considering the circumstances. I know you didn't mean to imply a whole lot of blame on the D for the loss, but I feel really strongly that the D did a bang up job given the position they kept getting put in.
September 23rd, 2012 at 6:14 PM ^
Not 100% of the job. You can say they did 95% of their job and I'd agree, but we needed one more possession and they couldn't get it. I was disappointed that ND was able to pick up six yards on its first two plays (when everyone in the stadium knew a run was coming). That set up a 3rd down in which they could either run or pass. Floyd was alone with no safety help on Eifert because we were bringing our safeties up in case of a run. We really needed to shut down the run on those first two plays to set up an obvious passing situation on 3rd down.
They played a good game overall, but we needed one more series out of them and they didn't have it in them. (And let's be honest: ND is not an offensive juggernaut. They've scored 53 points in their last three games combined.)
September 23rd, 2012 at 4:00 PM ^
I cannot imagine as meticulous as the coaching staff is with development and preparation that they're NOT coaching Denard on how to handle the inevitable blitz up the middle. This one play has been in complete and utter nemisis. I just don't understand.
The dip shits on ESPN can criticize Borges all they want, but the ND adjustment was a desperation one, and one that likely left them without another bullet to fire. They weren't moving the ball, and they saw that their "stop Denard from running, make him pass" wasn't working because he was, in fact passing.
It wasn't the "pocket passing" that was the issue. It was poor blitz recognition, pick up, and just flat out bad decisions with the football. Had those issues gone even marginally better, Michigan wins going away as ND's offense was being held in check by an inspired Michigan defensive performance.
September 23rd, 2012 at 4:07 PM ^
Aside from the turnovers and a few painful events (whistle from the stands), offsides, taking some bad sacks deep in their end, our offense moved the ball very well against them. Also our defense I thought overall played very well.
I'm in the minority on the Vincent Smith interception also. I really liked the call. It is easy to label this "a trick play" with therefore bad connotations but with the way the ND linebackers were crashing down on the run this was a perfect response at a perfect time to uncork this on them. It really was just the execution, Smith simply needed to throw the ball more to the outside, not just hang it up for grabs inside. Either its caught or its incomplete....
Also I don't really blame Borges as Mark May and others are doing. Again his offensive plan was working very well. Borges still has to rely on Denard to not make those mistakes. He is still the quarterback, he has to throw the ball, BUT he has to know when to throw it away versus getting it intercepted or taking a sack. Or know when to tuck it and scramble for what he can get - none of which it seems like he does at all. On pretty much all of those picks he is clearly not setting his feet bc he has pressure in his face. That right there is how to beat Michigan. Come all out against Denard, speed things up for him. You will tackle him running or you will almost certainly force a bad throw.
The other critical mistake was not throwing the ball in bounds for Gardner to even have a chance to catch it on the play he got hurt. I don't expect he would catch it though. He hasn't shown the Hemingway ability to catch a ball in traffic with any expected contact. Again Denard not getting time and Denard not setting his feet.
Those interceptions were all on Denard. The fumble was just crippling bad luck. I mean we were really in this game late despite giving the ball away as much as we did. I thought we were going to win up until that fumble....
September 23rd, 2012 at 4:10 PM ^
I don't fully understand the big bright line people want to draw between blame on Borges vs. Denard...in part because Borges is the quarterbacks coach.
So are we talking about blaming Borges the OC or Borges the quarterbacks coach? There could be a case for three elements here.
September 23rd, 2012 at 4:13 PM ^
September 23rd, 2012 at 4:14 PM ^
September 23rd, 2012 at 7:26 PM ^
Hoke.
We had six turnovers.
Out of bounds, as in boundary. Not bounce.
WTF
September 24th, 2012 at 11:29 AM ^
That was a chuck-and-pray attempt that had absolutely no impact on the outcome of the game, because the alternative was to essentially take a knee. So really there was only 5 turnovers of significance.
September 23rd, 2012 at 4:16 PM ^
I only ask this from Borges play calling with a clear limited passer. Teams (bama doesn't count for obvious reasons) are constantly 10 yds off the WR's...at what point can we at least give denard 3 step drops and get rid of it. I'm sorry asking someone who has not been able to read coverage's very well for 3 yrs to suddenly take huge drops and drop passes in windows he cant drop them in is not a good combo.
I love the fact Al wants to get vertical and make teams pay for cheating up and that is fine and dandy if your QB has ever been able to make that pass.
Borges may not like it but maybe the best offense for Denard is to dink and dunk and make his reads extremely easy. The threat of a Denard run is always going to keep teams at bay and should open easy throws for him instead of some of the naked boots that get him in trouble.
September 23rd, 2012 at 4:25 PM ^