OT: WI supreme court strikes down governor's stay-at-home order
Posting this since MI (and most other states) have a similar dynamic playing out with respect to the conflict over state executive mandated lockdown/closures (to varying extents).
While there is a marked partisan political overtone to this (especially in WI and MI where Republican legislatures are fighting Democrat governors), nationally this is not an exclusive partisan issue (for example, OH Republican state legislature is fighting similar orders by the Republican governor). It is a more fundamental issue of defining the powers of a state's executive vs legislative branches during times or crisis (as well as what constitutes a time of crisis and how long it can last). This is getting into some uncharted waters since the nation is not at war, nor are the states under martial law - in a murky gray area that hasn't been much of an issue until late, especially at the state level.
I will not comment on whether the WI court's ruling was right or wrong (not sure there even is a "right" answer), but it is interesting to note that neither side in the case wanted to ruling to go into effect - a stay was requested by the plaintiffs in order to negotiate a compromise but the court refused. I'm not a professional legal scholar or practitioner, but I think that this recent health crisis will further define (or redefine) aspects of governing at all levels for years to come - with this ruling being the first of many to come (and many likely to be conflicting).
Interesting times.
I'm really curious what this link is, but I don't want to be rickrolled so I'm not clicking on it.
My company is blocking youtube from work computers to save on bandwidth for actual work. It reminds me of March Madness when they block ESPN and the like for similar reasons.
My secret shame is that I like being Rickrolled.
Here you go, the ultimate RickRoll:
My first concert ever was this album tour, and they opened with this song. A bit later they had supermodels in high heels and G-strings dancing on stage. It was at this point that I fully realized what it meant to be a rock star.
I think I still have hearing damage.
Powers need to be clearly defined for each branch, ideally it would happen before a situation like this occurs... To flip the political associations with this, to me this is no different than when democrats were complaining that Bush didn't have the right to keep troops in the Middle East since Congress never declared war or Trump declaring the border a national emergency.
If powers are not clearly defined, then in every situation it seems like the executive in power just says "well I'm going to do what I want until the courts tell me I can't". Good on the Wisconsin Supreme Court for actually making a quick decision on this, Michigan's should be doing the same.
You don't even need to go that far back to raise questions around executive privilege. See the Supreme Court hearings on Tuesday.
Agree--unfortunately now even our courts have become partisan. Not sure the solution for that.
I know it is horribly naive to think this shouldn't happen.....but when courts become fully political and there's no 'middle ground' because everyone has to take an extreme position on either side of the aisle....what's left?
I am seriously concerned for the future of our country with the state of politics right now. Everything is now extreme politics - media, science, courts, etc.
The US is going to cease to exist as a country within a century.
I agree. Came to this conclusion a year or two ago. Electoral College, Gerrymandering, the flat cheating to tip the Supreme Court toward conservative. Gun laws, income inequality/taxation add to it.
NE states like NY, CT, MA, RI, DE, VT and the west coast will secede b/c of it.
The right in the US lost the culture war over the last 25 years and they have been cheating the system ever since bc they know the demographics are shifting away from them.
What is gaslighting, Alex?
"NE states like NY, CT, MA, RI, DE, VT and the west coast will secede b/c of it."
Because the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled: (from the NYT article)
"In their majority opinion on Wednesday, the justices ruled that Ms. Palm did not follow the proper procedure for setting stay-at-home limits, and should have followed a rule-making process that permits members of the Legislature to provide input.
“We do not conclude that Palm was without any power to act in the face of this pandemic,” the justices wrote. “However, Palm must follow the law that is applicable to state-wide emergencies.”
Seems pretty reasonable to me.
Yeah, he wasn't saying they are going to secede because of the WI ruling, but rather secede due to an accumulation of bullshit over the last several decades, and more bullshit to come in the decades ahead.
And secession or civil war is really one of the most logical outcomes of how this (politics...not the pandemic) all continues to play out in the decades ahead. Eventually, the high earning and more liberal states are going to say fuck this and vote to leave and form their own country and let the flyover states and south hash it out on their own.
Yeah...they lost the culture war to the party that will do anything to win elections, but not be held accountable for that approach. Is that the war the right lost?
That map is kind of misleading Vlad. I mean the 10 people in North Dakota may indeed be Red or whatever shade floats your boat, but it certainly doesn’t represent population density. Red, Blue, Purple Yellow. It’s all the same to me. Just thought I’d throw that out there about the map.
I don't know. The Blue country has no military or cops with guns. Oh wait, forgot they're friends with China. Sorry.
I'd be OK with that.
Right Wing Thursday means downvotes. U were spot on.
Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely
Yeah, it's difficult. If Michigan's Supreme Court rules against Whitmer, does everything open back up immediately? I don't think any branch of the government wants that, but at the same time, the Supreme Court shouldn't really be looking at that... If something is ruled to be against the law or unconstitutional it should be stopped immediately.
Sort of weird that there's no provisions for public health crisis. So it is illegal for the government to take steps to protect people....so then is it lord of the flies? Or we have to wait until some legislation gets through all branches and approved to say "this is how to handle public health crisis." I'm sure that wouldn't take long at all and would sail through without the legislation being influenced by special interests.
Can a governor call for a state of emergency?
I don't know how to feel. No one wants the economy to tank, but I also don't want to have a bunch of people die because "we have the right to be reckless and the government can't stop us".
I would say the governor should have power to call a state of emergency, but for only say a week.
Then both the governor and congress should not be able to leave the capitol building until legislation is passed. They are public servants. If something like a pandemic is so extreme that they are going to deprive millions of people of their freedoms, they should have any personal freedoms completely removed until they agree on a permanent resolution.
We as the governed shouldn't accept bipartisan bureaucratic bullshit as an acceptable reason why something can't get done.
edit: Another solution is that you give the governor full power to call a state of emergency, BUT during so, the governor's signature is no longer needed to pass legislation relating to the state of emergency.
Allows quick action, but provides a checks and balances system. Governor can temporarily overstep their normal power, but by doing so, are reducing their long-term power.
I get where you're coming from, but then I think of this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uTP_EaXLg0
Leadership is needed sometimes. A single, decisive voice is sometimes needed because otherwise, we spend weeks debating (see: First stimulus). Imagine if Mich/Ohio/NY/etc didn't lock down for another 2 weeks?! Someone in this comment thread very well could be dead. I don't think that's being alarmist, it is just extrapolating the exponential growth of the virus that we were on.
It's not like Whitmer is acting without support. She would change things if her approval rating was lower. She has made adjustments and is largely playing it safe. Some people are ready to be risky, that's fine. Some people are running out of financial ability to play it safe - that's important to consider.
I think we (read: media and social media echo chambers) need to do a better job being patient with each other and trusting that we're all Americans that love America. The libz aren't out to piss on the constitution. The republicans aren't illiterate morons. Most Americans fall in the middle and are friends and family with people who fall on the other side of the aisle. Most importantly, our elected officials need to model this behavior. Right now, too many don't and they act accordingly and react to the extreme bases accordingly.
This is an utter failure of the political class. The Governor can issue edicts but they pretty much entirely rely on the public choosing to go along. The longer "shelter at home" goes on, the greater the economic toll and the reality of laws circumscribing the Governor's authority to issue states of emergency will lead to greater public repudiation of the entire premise. It should be self evident that public support willingly given is what political leaders need to accomplish. But no, it's just sniping back and forth and a Governor issuing legally dubious fiats. Shame on them all. Governor and legislature. When it really matters they can't set aside petty disagreements and social media bloviations for the greater good.
That is not the purpose of government. It’s job is to protect the rights of its citizens. At least that’s how it’s supposed to work
This may be a chicken/egg problem. If it's the government's job to protect the rights of its citizens, why does it seem that no one can agree on those rights? Just as it's the gov't's job to protect the rights of citizens, it's also the citizen's job to respect the rights of other citizens, whether we personally agree with them or not.
Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness... Decision on whether to open/close clearly favors one of those while hurting the others.
Our government is not 1 person that get's to decide how to protect the rights of its citizens. There is a reason why we elect senators and representatives to also have a say in the government's decisions.
Yes, and Michigan's lawsuit springs from the same grievance that Wisconsin's did, i.e. that the legislature was not being consulted or given any voice in how the government should be addressing the Covid crisis. That freezes out all the people who those state legislators represent and puts all power in the hands of just one governor. That's not how our system was designed to work.
Hard to do that when your legislature won’t work with you at all and would rather delay to make you look bad instead of caring for peoples health.
Republican playbook in 2020:
1) Blame minorities
2) Call science “left wing” conspiracy
3) Keep rural voters voting red even tho they are federal welfare leaches by blaming #1
4) Defund public education thus making #2 #3 and #1 easier
5) Lie, cheat and steal via gerrymandering and obfuscation since majority of this country doesn’t GAF about your backward ass party anymore
Fuck Republicans. The Party is single handedly destroying this country from the inside out.
Last voted red in 2012 and feel ashamed I ever even considered it today.
I'm not a big GOP guy but right now it seems like this is the key political argument in this country:
GOP: We want you to be able to work
Dem: We don't think it's safe for you to work
If these positions hold, it's going to be a big November for the GOP. The Democrats are playing a dangerous game right now. I would advise them to rethink this.
The economy is in the tank. The party in charge at the top always loses in that year.
Trump is leading in almost every battleground state as of yesterday including Michigan. Unless the left changes their rhetoric quickly whomever the democrat nominee ends up being is going to get annihilated. It has been a spectacular backfire. They know this now and they don’t know what the hell to do about it.
Eh. If people are going to continually vote against their self interests, let em suffer. Perks of being in healthcare. I’ll always have a job.
The lack of education in this country cements just how much people don’t know what the govt really does. The sabotage is working and the right wing cronies are loving it.
At least Chad and Karen will have their their guns and their feeling of superiority when in reality they’re just on the teet of the wealthy.
The biggest issue right now for a vast majority of the voting population is complete financial chaos and the complete inability to offer any civic, educational, or developmental opportunities to their children. It isn’t Covid-19. Many are not speaking/acting out as to pretty legitimate fear that doing so could result in direct harm or collateral fallout to them or their family. Whitmer is directly stating that questioning her authority will lead to the extension/increase of her actions and rhetoric. When given the opportunity to actually vote between continuing freedom and opportunity v. endless despair and stunted developmental, people are going to vote for the former and that is how the issue is now being framed. The Democratic Party is toast in November. What’s scary is that as of right now she can effectively “punish” the voting populace afterward.
We flattened the curve. It was commendable. This is now basically a political movement that is failing and now badly scrambling to reframe the issue. Meanwhile families and children continue to suffer indefinitely. I have been a democrat my entire life but the actions of most democrats in power right now are sick and truly frightening.
You’re not a Democrat. Quit lying.
Read your own Governor’s plan to reopen you idiot.
Michigan is in phase 3-4 out of 6 I believe. Y’all are right on track with the rest of the states around you.
Looking at the polling averages from Realclearpolitics, most of the battleground states are Biden favored w Trump leading Ohio or within MOE. Put down the pipe.
Think what you want.
I have never cast a vote that was not for a democrat, but as of this moment would never vote for one again. There existed a very radical element of the left that I did not existed and it is ugly. You can dismiss it if you want but there are A LOT of voters who feel the same way.
Yesterday, CNN, the leftest of the left media, has Trump polling 3 point ahead in Michigan. Expect that number to grow substantially.
What happened to this website? Did BRIAN just say fuck the message board. No policing. I loved this board when politics was absent. It was only Michigan and that united us. I cringe at half the shit on this board right now. I am sure everyone would agree to just exclusively go back to Michigan and Michigan sports and delete all this trash. But that clearly won’t happen because no one gives a fuck any more
Unlike coronavirus, It's not hard to trace back to where civility was dumped into the trash on this thread.
The (non-existence of) moderation on the message board and being stuck in HUEL... 
There are no sports so there is nothing else to talk about.
"Quit Lying" "You Idiot"
Typical lack of civility from extremists of all stripes.
And speaking of feeling superior to others:
"At least Chad and Karen will have their their guns and their feeling of superiority when in reality they’re just on the teet of the wealthy."
p.s. "teat"
iljohnb and his 50 pseudo-names (J, CC, NittanyFan) have been trolling the board since the pandemic began. I don't respect his nonsense.
It’s funny that you think this point of view is just one person with several different identities. No, it is that the majority of the (heavily liberal) board now disagrees with you.
You are proving my point re: November 3rd.
The majority of this board believes in cautious re-opening.
That isn't what you have been espousing for a month now. You've been screaming doom and gloom since day 1 and how you can't play with your kids yadda yadda yadda.
Again, this "landslide" you're predicting is a massive reach with current polling trends as per RCP, but we shall see.
If you want to understand what I am saying, look no further than the new data just released by the State of Michigan for Tuesday. The ability of schools and businesses to reopen is dependent on the number of days of decline in new Coronavirus cases and deaths. Now, (and for some time), they are artificially inflating “new cases and deaths” by including old backlogged cases that they count as “new” to keep the current Order in place. Whitmer is not acting in good faith.
First off, politics is power, and power is a light that brings on swarms of power hungry bugs. That is true of every government everywhere in history. It's as true of the left as of the right.
You want to argue that there are stupid power games on the right? Yep, I'll agree. You want to argue that there's some blind partisans? Sure, 100%. But let's be right clear - EVERYTHING here is equally true of the left.
You know what is destroying the country from within? Blind delusional hatred. Hubris. Horsecrap white-hat black-hat nonsense thinking that your side is lily-white good and the other side is Gargamel/Sauron/Darth Vader incarnate. Lying to yourself damages this country Cube.
Most people, left and right are pretty decent people. We want what's best for everyone, we want people to go to bed with food in their stomachs, in a safe, warm home, with full confidence of a good next day. We want there to be opportunity for everyone to be successful - EVERYONE, of every race, religion, gender, sexuality, whatever. YES REALLY. Where we disagree is not in our goals, it's in our attempts to achieve them. Our directions are opposed, but that does not mean our goals are not fundamentally - and equally - good.
What's going to fix things? LISTENING. Open your mind, assume that someone has something worth hearing. The right is not one thing, the left is not one thing. Individuals are often not one thing, so how the hell can an entire political party be one thing?
Your post is a far bigger threat to our nation than either party, I promise you.