OT: Talking Cars Tuesday - Bronco Post Hype
So last week's Bronco reveal was just about everything folks were waiting for. Body on frame, optional 37"s from the factory, removable tops and doors, it sure looks like Ford checked all the boxes. Now that we've seen that it looks pretty darn cool and we've got a year or so before we see them on the street, I have some questions.
- How many people out there want a "Jeep Wrangler" that's not a Jeep Wrangler? Jeeps have been available with most of the same cooler features forever. Jeeps hold their value. Jeeps have a huge following. There's a market for used Jeeps, and Jeep already sells 230,000 Wranglers per year. Is there a big market for people who want that type of vehicle but don't have one?
- Is it a problem that there's no 2-Door soft top? (I don't think so, Jeep doesn't have 4 door Dual tops, and in general the 4-door take rate is much higher).
- Is it a problem that there's no V8? (I don't think so, Jeep hasn't had one forever. Turbos work! That said, Jeep did tease a 6.4L V8 Wrangler, but they've teased V8 Wranglers many times, until it's available at a dealer it's not real)
- Is it a problem that there's no hybrid at launch? Jeep teased the Wrangler 4xe, and Ford has the tech from the F150/Ranger/Explorer hybrids, why wait for the second model year?
- Will there be longer term demand? Ford seems to have made HUGE investments here, including the "Bronco Sport" - an off-roady version of the Escape platform. Ford has had retro-hits before. In 2003 the retro Thunderbird sold 18,000 units. '04 it was 12,000. By 2006 they sold 469. Everyone who wanted one got one, and that was that. After the excitement wears off, will they keep making the investments? Will anyone want one in 3 years who didn't already buy one?
That said, Americans can't seem to get enough SUVs. It'll be interesting for sure! As a car person professionally and personally, I'm glad there's such excitement around cars, whatever form they take.
Also, full disclosure, what with the user name - I haven't owned a Jeep since 2011. Professionally, I and my company are responsible for parts in both the Wrangler and the Bronco. I think for my plant and company the Bronco will have more content... but I'm not 100% sure. Buying either would help me/my company.
Bronco is sharp no doubt and the variants they offer are very cool. But I wouldn't even consider buying one of these til after they've made them for a few years. With the issues Ford has had on transmissions and engines the last few years I'm leary of them to be honest (and I'm a Ford supplier as well).
That being said FCA (Jeep) quality isn't all that. If the Bronco earns a reputation as a quality vehicle in 3-4 years it will hurt FCA sales substantially.
But I wouldn't even consider buying one of these til after they've made them for a few years.
Regardless of the brand, this is how I treat basically any complex purchase more than $100. You don't buy the first edition of anything. Let others pay to work out the mass production kinks.
Seems like Jeep is the Harley Davidson of the car world. Competitors have come out with better engineered, better priced, and more reliable options that also look just as good from an aesthetics standpoint, and yet the culture around the brand is just so strong that nothing can knock it off the throne.
Interesting comparison. Which vehicles would you compare favorably in terms of engineering/price/reliability to the Wrangler? Most folks would say the last competition was the FJ Cruiser, which has been out of production for years.
That said, HD is in big, big trouble. Mainly due to the culture around the brand...
Yep. Harley Davidson stock has been on a death march along with its customers since 2014.
HD as a business is definitely in trouble, as they should be. And yet I know so many people in the biker community that are like "If it ain't a Harley it's shit" just because of the brand. They're all about the lifestyle which I get to some extent, in the same vein as many Jeep owners.
Not as many options vs Jeep compared to Harley vs others. FJ as you said was the biggest and most fits my original comparison. There's been a few others that you could throw in there I think: Hummer, Tracker, the older Bronco, older Blazer. Not quite a like-for-like as with motorcycles, but in the ballpark.
Nothing against Jeep, I live near the beach and it'd be fun to get an old wrangler and use as a weekend beach cruiser, but my kids are still younger and isn't in the cards quite yet.
I was never in the market for one, but always thought the FJ Cruiser could have been a nice option.
Does anyone have experience with how they held up over the years? A clean used one might be an interesting option for my 15 year old next year....
I have an FJ and absolutely love it. 2010-2014 models are all tanks. If money is not an issue it's a great option. They are still very high demand. A clean 2010 with 110k miles will run you about $22k.
To the OP
- How many people out there want a "Jeep Wrangler" that's not a Jeep Wrangler? The market is substantial. Look at the fleet of FJ cruisers, H3's, modded 4runners, Vintage Land Rivers, etc that are still daily drivers. Many will be reaching the end if their DD life soon and be resigned to hobby cars. It's a perfect time to release the Bronco. The demand in this segment is kinda crazy. My FJ Cruiser has appreciated substantially since I bought it.
- Is it a problem that there's no 2-Door soft top? Getting a soft top made is easy.
- Is it a problem that there's no V8? Not for me. Can't see why there would be.
- Is it a problem that there's no hybrid at launch? No. Will be a nice addition to the line later but the competition doesn't have a hybrid in this segment.
- Will there be longer term demand? Everyone keeps citing the Thunderbird. That was a hobby car for an older generation. It was a 2005 car that was an homage to a 1950's design. 50 years from when it was popular. It pulled at the heartstrings of people who were 0-20 years old for the original and 50-70 for the re-release. A market segment looking for a Sunday cruiser. The Bronco, on the other hand, is targeted at a generation of buyers that is now 25-45 and looking for daily driver that that can handle their demanding outdoor activities. Or at least look like it can handle their demanding outdoor activities.
As others have said, as long as they can beat Jeep in stock quality, which shouldn't be a huge stretch, I think they have a winner here. Maybe Im just the target market. All my friends near me in age and outdoor hobbies has said the same thing.
You are right in that Jeep, like HD, is more about the lifestyle than the quality of the product. HD is widely considered subpar, overpriced motorcycles and Jeeps are generally considered overpriced and the driving experience (on road) is poor.
Jeep was smart and expanded their market by creating the 4-door while selling the outdoor, or at least open air lifestyle. On the other hand, HD put on blinders and doubled down on the "loud pipes save lives" and the dentist market.
Good comparison.
On-topic: If you've never seen the South Park treatment of Harley Davidson riders, do yourself a favor and look for it online.
My friends in the off-road community say that for serious off-road and rock climbing the Wrangler is far superior to this version of the Bronco. They say it is because Bronco has an independent front suspension (superior for on-road performance) as opposed to the solid axle on the Rubicon (better off road). Granted even 95% of Wrangler owners never take it on serious off-road trails.
speaking of new ford products, how about the proto-type 1400 hp e-mustang. insanity.
link to an article here: https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/feu/en/news/2020/07/21/all-electric-mustang-mach-e-1400-prototype-by-ford-performance-a.html
7 total motors, 4WD, Mustang Mach-E 1400 has seven motors – five more than even Mustang Mach-E GT. Three are attached to the front differential and four are attached to the rear in pancake style, with a single driveshaft connecting them to the differentials, which have a huge range of adjustability to set the car up for everything from drifting to high-speed track racing.
Sounds like a very complicated machine with lots of things that could go wrong especially in a sub zero environment. The auto makers have a bad track record for first year models and Ford is no exception.
You think an electric motor is more complicated than an internal combustion one that also relies on a transmission?
Absolutely and let's not forget the effect that sub zero temperatures have on electric vehicles
I'm not going to agree with you here. Electric motors have been easily made since Westinghouse finally relied on Tesla's design in the late 1890's. They have few parts, require very little lubrication, are incredibly easy to control, and have a very good performance ratio as to the power you get out of them vs what you put in. And the same can be said for internal combustion engines, also!
The difference is in maintenance. There is no way that an internal combustion engine is easier to maintain than an electric motor.
yeah, especially up north. i think it's great that people can make them work in warmer, urban areas, but the reality is that up here they'd be nothing but beautiful paper weights or wind breaks for much of the year. i don't know that battery technology has taken much of a leap in the last 100 years.
And to add onto xtramelanin, I just went on a 10 day trip to the UP for a family vacation, and there was nowhere to charge an electric vehicle. That's not changing anytime soon. And I wasn't going to completely backwoods-- I started in Trout Lake about 30 miles north of St Ignace and went to Munising, the Soo, Tahquamenon Falls, Escanaba, and then down to St Ignace / Mackinaw. Having an electric car for that type of trip is not practical. Now for the large portion of the population that lives in a metropolitan area where electric charging is commonplace and you don't drive more than 10-20 miles in a day, sure. But if you live anywhere where you regularly drive 40-100 miles a day and may have inclement weather to deal with, IC engines are still superior to electric vehicles (and probably will be for a long time-- and that's not evil, just different optimization parameters for an engineering problem).
Define "complicated" though, because a 1400 hp car with an ICE is certainly not "simple." They're just complicated/complex in different ways.
Just what everyone needs for a nice Sunday drive - a Mustang with 1,400 HP and 7 motors. What could go wrong with that?
Hard enough to keep the current models with 310-480 HP properly maintained.and within 10 miles over the speed limit...
This is a one-off, track-only prototype intended to explore the "art of the possible" for EVs. So, with respect to the comments about "terrible in cold weather," etc., it will never be driven in cold weather. Probably not even in the rain.
my guess is that we all know the $250K e-mustang isn't getting dirty, but that the conversation clearly drifted to e-vehicles in general.
I assume that despite all the bravado from Ford about Jeep being nervous, they actually hope to expand the market. They must know that it will be difficult in the near term to overcome Jeep loyalty and a brand that has stood for serious off-roading for over 75 years. However, Ford also has impressive brand loyalty, and I think they will do well with their customer base.
Personally I have owned 10 Jeeps in the past and #11, a Gladiator Rubicon diesel, is currently on order. There is nothing remotely like that vehicle available from Ford (or anyone else, for that matter).
They may be striking while the iron is hot, since Overlanding & Glamping are basically the best vacation ideas in the time of COVID.
I think the Bronco off-road school is a really interesting idea, but Ford did something similar with their "ST" driving school, and now the Focus and Fiesta STs are both dead here...
You definitely qualify as a Jeep fanatic if you buy the Gladiator.
Thanks, I have loved every single Jeep I have owned except for a Patriot that I bought for my kid to drive in 2008. Took me about 2 months to trade it in on a Wrangler Unlimited (which I sold two years later for what I paid for it).
The Gladiator is my 5th Jeep and it is the best one I’ve owned yet. Having the bed adds a ton of day-to-day practicality, and with the Rubicon package it handles the Colorado backcountry near where we live with authority. I am getting it lifted next week with 37s but as you note, I’m well into fanatic territory.
I held out for the blue and the “M Dad” sticker looks great on it.
Want to impress your crush?
Get a fake Lamborghini car key, place it in your pocket, then while you're walking pass your crush you "accidentally" drop your car key on the floor by her.
If she notices and asks you about it, say you just recently bought a brand new Lamborghini, but you don't like to take it out much. Only taking it out to go on a Sunday drive, and that you like to take the bus because you like to know what it's like to be poor.
Moderator rob f: Please? PLEASE?
Have you been watching later episodes of Friends and taking dating advice from Joey? You going to stand next to a pile of boxes in shape of Lambo?
I'm not sure if it was posted here, but apparently the bronco's premium off road Sasquatch package will not be offered with the manual transmission. So anyone that prefers it will likely be needing aftermarket support for lift, tires, proper fenders, etc.
Still, always nice to have variety and competition in the car market.
I had an old 4 banger manual YJ when I was younger which is why I probably don't consider them suitable daily drivers now. I beat the hell out of that thing. Great for a young adult though and easy to work on compared to cars of today.
If I were in the market for an off road vehicle today, I'd keep my truck but look for an old Land Rover Defender to restore.
I had a 4 banger YJ! Then a 6cyl TJ. Both manual. Having had a short drive in a JL Sahara right when they came out... they're much more live-with-able than they used to be.
It was a greatJeep, but dang, highway speeds pushed that engine pretty hard. Probably kept me from getting arrested for speeding a lot. Fortunately never had engine or transmission problems so I have a high opinion of the brand. I did jump an old wooden bridge once Dukes of Hazzard style and broke a motor mount which wasn't fun to fix since it busted the oil filter and sprayed it everywhere in the engine bay, but it certainly was fun to break.
I had a '94 Land Rover Defender 90 that I loved (in yellow, of course). Eventually it got to be too expensive to maintain and I sold it, but I would love to get one again someday.
Definitely not a cheap vehicle to repair or restore.
I've always believed that many modern SUV's have modeled themselves after the Defender. Mercedes G-Ride and Jeep, in particular. I've always considered the Defender the OG of the SUV, and it's square lines and cuts have attracted me since i was in my early teens (I'm 46 now). I've also really enjoyed old Bronco's, International Harvesters, and any big rusty bulky mass.
So I bought a Defender 15 years ago. I don't have plans to unloaded it. Ever. But this being MGOBLOG, I'm sure many would appreciate the sticker collection.
Awesome. Thanks for posting. Love it.
And a Chinese automaker has already copied the design...
I’m on my 2nd Jeep, but have access to a Ford A plan. Lack of a comparable option to the Jeep has always been a disappointment for me with Ford. I have owned/leased several Fords as well and have never had any problems with them. My wife’s recent promotion gave her a company car so there was no point in getting anything new when my lease was up on our Escape last year.
We have a few years left to pay off my current Jeep. If the Bronco is looking to be reliable that will be my next car.
Ford needs to have a clean launch (looking at you Explorer), especially with this being a "new vehicle".
For #1: I think there is a definite market for taking off-road vehicles on adventures such as dropping the kids off at school, going to the grocery store and sitting in rush hour traffic.
For #4: I'm sure an electric option is in the pipeline. Ford has made electrification a major priority.
For #5: I think the Bronco Sport will sell really well. The price point is good, and you still get to say that you drive a bronco. I think the door is still open to expand the "bronco stable". Electric option, possibly a pick up option (similar to Gladiator).
I'm excited, considering the Bronco Sport but may wait a year to see how launch goes.
Bring back the Bronco XLT!!
Everyone said Muscle cars were dead in 2003-2004. There was no market for them, so GM stopped making the Camero. Ford came out with the retro Mustang and there was a boom market of retro muscle cars and huge boosts in horse power.
Jeep created a whole new market of Jeep owners by making the 4 door version. I honestly think this will be good for both Ford and Jeep, as competition will drive better vehicles and continue to challenge the market.
I bet GM comes out with an off-road ready Blazer next! Oh, wait...
Plenty of people want a Jeep but can't get it or it's not worth it to them because they have access to Ford A/Z plan pricing.
I'd be more worried about Edge sales falling the way of the Thunderbird than the Bronco.
I've never understood the appeal of the Edge. If you only want two rows, the Escape has better mileage and close to the same cargo space. If you want size, the Explorer has the third row. And yet Ford consistently cranks out 150,000 of those suckers a year with very little loss in sales as the car ages.
A lot of people like plain, boring things that don't stick out. Not too big, not too small, boring styling. Every townhouse or condo community I drive through with exactly the same looking residences is full of Edges.
The Edge definitely appeals to me (a full size car driver with very limited options of a full size American car). The Escape is noticeably smaller than the Edge when you sit the front/rear seating. I don't need three rows or the added cargo space or added cost* of an Explorer.
*Base model cost isn't much different, but Edge Titanium is listed at $36k and the Explorer Limited is like $44k. (based on Bill Brown Ford A-Z pricing right now)
Although at $36k I'd be looking at an F-150 instead.
My wife has the Escape, and I can tell you that it is small! The Edge would be a nice step up in size, because she doesn't need an Explorer. I have one child, and it's a chore to fit everything inside the Escape for a day at the beach. I have both a 5'x8' trailer and a hitch carrier just to make sure I can move whatever might need to be moved.
- How many people out there want a "Jeep Wrangler" that's not a Jeep Wrangler?
Me. I have been burned by quality of Chrysler/Jeep/FCA products and would probably not buy one again. IF I was to buy a Jeep like product if MIGHT be a Bronco. I like the looks of the Gladiator pickup but do not want a 4 door short bed and it is massively overpriced - and my history with FCA quality deters me.
Not so sold on the Escape/Bronco sport.
I am more of a midsized/small pickup guy but like this space - considered a Toyota FJ a few years back but just need a pickup bed.
Part of it is reality and part of it is mythic, but there's a combo of reasons that the Cherokee XJ's are one of the most in demand used SUVs right now. That was the last model design that a lot of folks consider still having heritage with the "old school reliable" Jeeps with the inline 6 engine. Many Jeep fans on the message boards will claim that with the switch from the XJ to the Liberty & Patriot platform, Jeep "cheaped out" on the components and design that made Jeeps, Jeeps. I actually think the Bronco Sport is focused at this crowd (the old Jeep XJ crowd, current Edge/Escape/RAV4 crowd that wants an SUV to fit the family but not look like an overly slopey sedan with lift shoes) and not the Wrangler crowd. Wrangler crowd is targeted with the 2-dr / 4-dr full Bronco.
If you take a look at probable A-Plan pricing, you're going to be able to get a Bronco Sport and probably a 2-door model Bronco with a decent option package for under $30k. That's a sweet spot for a lot of folks who don't want an overly sloped SUV that at least appears rugged, that can pull a small pop-up, or trailer with a ATV/snowmobile, or a small boat/jetski, but also have to fit 2-3 kids and a dog in a car. Or can at least park at a campground without risking breaking a tie bar arm.
And as to the hybrid version, I assume that's coming next generation. Get the initial version off the ground to the target audience of amateur to moderate off roaders, let the off road nuts have fun tricking out their versions with after market accessories and lift kits. Then integrate the hybrid or all-electric version in a couple years after working out the kinks with the Mach-E and hybrid Escape.