OT: Lou Whitaker's HoF case by Joe Posnanski
Joe Posnanski is writing a series of articles on the top 100 players not in the HoF and #6 is Lou Whitaker.
He was under-appreciated because he was only really elite for 1-2 seasons, and his ability to do everything very well doesn't get attention the way a single elite skill does. The totality of his career sure puts him in good company.
January 19th, 2021 at 3:15 PM ^
It's criminal. And I would say that is not hyperbole. As has been stated by anyone objectively, in New York and he's in. Disgusting.
January 19th, 2021 at 3:36 PM ^
I don't think it's NY-bias in this case. Willie Randolph was a pretty darn good 2B whose career partly overlaps with Sweet Lou's. Whitaker is the better player but it's closer than you might think - Randolph has the higher OBP! - and Randolph has never gotten any real HoF buzz.
I think it's that walking has always been under-appreciated by the voters. It takes a long time (or experience with simulations) to realize that the single most valuable skill on offense is not making outs, and walks really are (99+%) as good as hits.
January 19th, 2021 at 3:53 PM ^
WAR is clearly in favor of Lou, no?
January 19th, 2021 at 6:04 PM ^
Ryne Sandberg(inducted in 2005) career stats:
WAR- 68.0
Batting Avg: .285
AB: 8385
Hits: 2386
HR: 282
RBI: 1061
LOU WHITAKER career stats:
WAR: 75.1
Batting Avg: .276
AB: 8570
hits: 2369
HR: 244
RBI: 1084
Almost identical numbers. Ryne did have 9 gold gloves to Lou’s 3, but 3 is nothing to be upset about. Lou is a HoFamer!
January 19th, 2021 at 6:55 PM ^
Lou should be in, however, Sandberg was a good deal better. Sandberg was a 10 time All Star, while Lou has half as many All Star appearances. Sandberg had 9 gold gloves, to Lou’s 3, had a higher fielding percentage and stole WAY more bases despite playing 250 less games. In addition, Sandberg has a MVP and finished in he top 5 in MVP voting 3-times. Lou never finished in the top 20 in MVP voting. Not once. Simply put, Sandberg was a top 5-10 player in the NL during his prime and he was arguably the best player in the NL in 84, 85, and 90. Lou is deserving for sure, but it’s pretty easy to see why Sandberg is a much easier case to make.
January 19th, 2021 at 7:16 PM ^
Yeah, no way. I’ll take Lou everyday and twice on Sunday. Lou has a championship ring and was much better during winning time. Lou probably had more errors but had way better range and as a result, a much better fielder.
This is strictly big versus small market deal and therefore is terrible.
January 19th, 2021 at 9:34 PM ^
Let me introduce you to the idea of gold glove inertia. Not sure this is still an issue, but it was back in the day:
January 20th, 2021 at 11:12 PM ^
I think there were only 4 gold glove winners in the 1980s -- 2 in each league .AL ( Lou and Frank White) NL (Ryne and Manny Trillio) i think Whitaker and Sandberg both won 5-6 silver sluggers
Lou was a 5-time All Star (not 3 as many are saying)
Hes on every list as a top 10-15 second base All Time
MLB.com ranks Ryne #8 ,Lou # 11
Lou Whitaker should be in the Hall of Fame 100%
January 19th, 2021 at 6:10 PM ^
Sweet Lou's Career WAR is 75.1. The avg HOF 2B is 69.4. Willie Randolph's is 65.9.
If you prefer JAWS as the measurement, Lou has a 56.5 v the avg HOF 2B at 56.9.
For further comparison, first ballot HOFer Derek Jeter's career WAR is 72.4.
Why isn't Lou in?
January 19th, 2021 at 3:21 PM ^
It is a crime that he is not in the HOF. His numbers are better than many other 2nd basemen that are in the HOF. I hope he gets his reward someday. He was one of my favorites growing up.
January 19th, 2021 at 3:22 PM ^
Every stat guru agrees that he belongs. To have Tram in there but not Sweet Lou just doesn't make sense. Sportswriters, get it together.
(BTW, I never knew his middle name was Rodman.)
January 19th, 2021 at 3:37 PM ^
The fact he is not in while a second basemen like Bill Mazeroski and his career OPS of .667 is (got in off of one moment) is criminal.
January 19th, 2021 at 3:50 PM ^
I also like to compare his career to Ryne Sandberg - who everyone talks about as a sure-fire HOF and one of the best 2B of all time. Their stats are very, very similar with Lou having better numbers in most categories (including the advanced ones like WAR and OPS+) while Sandberg gets some of the flash old-school stats like HR, SB, and BA. The biggest difference I see is that....
- Sandberg was media savvy and played on WGN for his entire career while Lou was very quiet and played in the shadow of more flashier players like Morris, Trammell, and Gibson.
- Sandberg had a short section of his career where he was elite while Lou was more "very solid" for a longer time.
I'm not arguing that Whitaker was as good as Sandberg - but they are much closer together than their HOF status would suggest.
January 19th, 2021 at 4:22 PM ^
yep. peak vs longevity. unfortunately for lou, peak gets you noticed more.
January 19th, 2021 at 4:24 PM ^
Whitaker was BETTER than Sandberg.
Better defensively throughout his career, and other than Lou's first 4 full seasons (when he hit a total of just 12 homers before his body matured, but still had a great OBP and very good other numbers) comparable in just about every offensive category.
January 19th, 2021 at 6:59 PM ^
This is just silly. Sandberg was so much better than Lou defensively. Guy didn’t make errors and had amazing range. In fact, he went like 160 something games in between errors.
January 19th, 2021 at 8:13 PM ^
And if I'm being silly, you're being wacky by insisting "Sandberg was so much better than Lou defensively".
You cite 9 gold gloves to 3 as your proof? There's probably no baseball award more subjective than the Gold Gloves Award. On top of that, Lou had none other than Frank White in his way (their career overlap as full-time starters stretched from 1978-1989, White "only" won 7 of his own 8 Gold Gloves over those 12 seasons to Lou's 3, Harold Reynolds the other 2) for that award for much of his career, and I'd argue that White was one of the 2 or 3 best in our lifetimes defensively at 2nd base.
Name one better if you can.
January 19th, 2021 at 9:36 PM ^
I posted this elsewhere in the thread:
January 19th, 2021 at 10:31 PM ^
Thanks, great article that says better what I was trying to get across: counting Gold Gloves is far from the best measure for defensive greatness.
I will acknowledge that Sandberg was good defensively. He was a heady player who knew where to position himself and was sure-handed with the balls he reached. In a lot of ways, he was like a 2nd base version of Alan Trammell. I'd have to look it up, but I would guess Tram had a very slight range advantage.
That said, I still believe Lou to be better. Nobody I remember from those days not named Frank White had quicker hands when handling the relay on a double play. And Whitaker's arm was 2nd to none in arm strength at that position back then. Deep in the hole, on a bang-bang play, or gunning a runner down at home on outfield relays, Lou was one of the best and better than Sandberg (who I watched often on WGN back then).
Back briefly, though, to my earlier gold gloves discussion; did Sandberg have any strong NL competition for the Gold Gloves Award back then? Other than Craig Biggio (their careers slightly overlapped, if memory serves me correctly), I can't recall any other 2nd basemen who really stood out back during Sandberg's 9 year run of gold gloves.
Anyway, I found an interesting Bill Parker piece from 2011 discussing Whitaker vs Sandberg.
As an aside to this particular MGoBoard discussion, Parker says Frank White was one of the two ALL-TIME best defensively at the position.
Another fine piece from 2017 I found, comparing the two:
January 19th, 2021 at 11:27 PM ^
Sandberg.
January 20th, 2021 at 12:55 AM ^
You seriously think Sandberg was better than Frank White defensively?
Seriously??
January 20th, 2021 at 2:16 AM ^
Yes. More assists and higher fielding percentage than White even though White played longer.
January 20th, 2021 at 6:12 PM ^
Be honest, that's only a fraction of what goes into defensive metrics.
If that's all that's considered, one could conceivably cherry pick statistics to try proving Ozzie Smith wasn't the greatest defensive shortstop ever.
Serious questions: do you watch teams other than your Cubs? Did you read any of the linked articles I and others posted? Did you read Posnanski's article in The Athletic that was referred to in the OP?
I'm not arguing that Sandberg was not a great 2nd baseman, which he definitely was compared to his NL competition during his career.
If you don't care to read any of those, try googling any number of well-written articles explaining the metrics available to accurately measure defensive greatness. You'll be doing yourself a favor.
January 19th, 2021 at 7:20 PM ^
In the game you need to win, you want Sweet Lou at 2B over Ryno all day.
January 20th, 2021 at 12:34 AM ^
This is the craziest thing I have ever read on this tweetblog. I don't think there was a single season in which Sweet Lou was even the second best player on the Tigers let alone in MVP consideration.
January 19th, 2021 at 7:01 PM ^
Sandberg was shy as hell and didn’t speak. Media savvy? No way.
January 19th, 2021 at 9:37 PM ^
Forgot to mention that user name pretty much checks out here .....
January 20th, 2021 at 12:32 AM ^
Sandberg definitely had ZERO media savvy. An exceptionally shy individual. Rarely gave interviews. Sandberg is in the Hall of Fame because he was a better player than Lou Whitaker. I believe Sweet Lou should also be in the HOF but he was not at Sandberg's level. The dude above that posted about the MVP differences is spot on.
January 19th, 2021 at 3:54 PM ^
Trammel and Whitaker - boy, that brings back memories of listening to baseball on the radio as a kid in 1984. What a summer!
January 19th, 2021 at 4:00 PM ^
I played football with a guy who was fast, he was the fastest runner on the team. But his stride was so effortless that it looked like he was hardly working. Our coach was constantly riding him to get him to work harder. That's how I see Lou Whitaker's career. He was so smooth at everything he did, and he made it look so easy. He didn't get accolades for flashy plays (I'm looking at you, Ozzie Smith) because he made them look effortless.
Come on, writers, do the right thing. It's time to put the best double play combination in MLB history into the Hall of Fame, side-by-side, just like they were at Tigers Stadium for all those years.
January 19th, 2021 at 4:23 PM ^
this, 100%. well, except for the ozzie thing.
ozzie in his time wasn't just flashy...he made more plays than anyone at that position. i'm honestly not sure if his numbers hold up now, but in the early days of sabermetrics, comparing his range factor to other shortstops made it look like everyone else was playing 7-inning games.
January 19th, 2021 at 4:27 PM ^
oh, many years from now the veterans committee will finally put him in after he's dead. they do that far too often. i'm still bitter about ron santo and buck o'neil.
January 19th, 2021 at 4:39 PM ^
And Dick Allen.
January 19th, 2021 at 4:47 PM ^
Dick Allen, BTW, was the subject of yesterday's write-up by Posnanski. #7 on the list and lonnnnnnng-overdue for induction in Cooperstown.
Shame on the Baseball HOF for not getting it right before Allen's recent passing.
January 19th, 2021 at 4:06 PM ^
That series by Posnanski has been a very-good-to-great read throughout. While I don't agree with a very small handful he's unveiled so far, I've been clicking on my "The Athletic" app every morning in anticipation of that day's chapter. Michigan Baseball's Bill Freehan was another well-deservingTiger on Posnanski's list a few weeks ago.
Well worth my subscription.
As for Sweet Lou, hell yes he belongs! Posnanski makes a great case for Whitaker's HOF induction (although I thought he should have emphasized Lou's quick hands and his accurate and strong throwing arm as one of the keys to the success of the Trammell/Whitaker DP combination). I think/hope the unjustified omission will likely be corrected next time the appropriate HOF Veteran's Committee takes up Lou's case.
January 19th, 2021 at 4:20 PM ^
freehan was clearly the ALs best catcher for several years. he likely just fell a couple years of stats short of the HOF. sucks he played in the best pitcher era since the early 1900s. that muted his stats.
January 19th, 2021 at 4:08 PM ^
I'll take Whitaker over Ryne Sandburg all day.
January 19th, 2021 at 4:15 PM ^
Heck. "Ryne" didn't even know how to spell.
January 19th, 2021 at 4:15 PM ^
Ooooh, hall of fame talk. One of my favorite things.
Lou is one of those classic cases of "Hall of Fame Time" without a "Hall of Fame Prime". See similar cases such as Jack Morris, Bert Blyleven, and Harold Baines (all in the Hall); or Keith Hernandez, Kenny Lofton, or Bill Freehan (none in the Hall).
Sweet Lou is a casualty of his era, where the traditional stats reign supreme. The modern stats, which favor longer term success and continual excellence rather than a couple positive outlier seasons, are really favoring these types of guys. The problem is they're off the ballots.
January 19th, 2021 at 4:24 PM ^
me too. i could argue the hall of fame for hours. i HAVE argued the hall of fame for hours.
January 19th, 2021 at 4:36 PM ^
Going to the Hall of Fame induction was one of the few traditions my dad and I had growing up. We'd wake up before dawn, drive the 3.5 hours to Cooperstown, walk around the town, go the the museum, and then sit in the field for the induction speeches. Went to the last induction in 2019, and it really hasn't changed much. That tiny little town is really untouched by time.
Now that I'm older, I've been able to better plan in advance to go there for a few days at a time, and it's really cool to walk around and see hall of famers hanging out at the restaurants, and being totally normal people... except for Pete Rose. He's always a weirdo.
January 19th, 2021 at 4:16 PM ^
i will never, ever understand how trammell got in before whitaker, although i have an inkling.
trammell was (and is) beloved by media and fans and held up as this paragon of "hard work," while whitaker was, in his time, regarded as this guy who kinda floated along on talent and never quite reached his potential, despite the fact that, for years, they had scarily similar career stats. but one is in and one isn't. hmmm, i wonder what's the difference between the two?
January 19th, 2021 at 6:01 PM ^
Tram was a World Series MVP and it is widely thought he got jobbed in the 1987 league MVP voting. He played in 6 all star games to Lou’s 5. And it’s lot like Tram was a first ballot guy. He had to wait until 2018’s Modern Era Committee to get him in. Regardless, they both should be in.
January 19th, 2021 at 4:16 PM ^
Sweet Lou should be in.
He and Tram should have gone in together.
Shoulda! Woulda. Coulda?
January 19th, 2021 at 4:17 PM ^
he did win 4 silver slugger awards and 3 gold gloves (probably deserved a couple more). that's more than 1-2 elite seasons.
January 19th, 2021 at 5:08 PM ^
I'm using a rough equivalence: elite == "legit-MVP-candidate" season. Lou's best year was 1983 (the only year he got MVP votes), where he put up 6.3 bWAR with the bat and backed it with a Gold Glove. His 1991 season is next best; those are the only two years where he cleared 6 bWAR. Sandberg has four seasons better than any of Lou's (capped by that 1984 MVP) and another that's almost as good as Lou's best.
On the other hand, none of his full seasons are below 1.5 bWAR and most are in the 2.8-4.9 range. Mr. Consistent, even in his last few seasons.
January 19th, 2021 at 5:11 PM ^
Lou had a career batting avg. of .276 with 244 Homers and .985 fielding avg. If you compare his numbers to all hall of fame 2nd basemen inductees, he clearly belongs. Unfortunately, he played in a small market, which hurt him greatly.
January 19th, 2021 at 5:45 PM ^
He wasn't "media-friendly"and that is the only reason he is not it.
Parrish, Tram, Whitaker, and Lemon were as good as any combination up the middle and routinely made spectacular plays look routine.
January 19th, 2021 at 5:48 PM ^
If Whitaker had posted the exact same career numbers playing in NY, Chicago, Boston, or LA, he'd have been voted in with Trammell.
His disadvantage was that he played in a much smaller media market, and was quiet and reserved—he wasn't an ebullient personality who churned out quotes for the meathead, donut crumb-festooned sportswriters who vote on the HOF.
January 19th, 2021 at 6:03 PM ^
Criminal that he’s not in