OT- Game of Thrones S8E5
Put me down for $10 this all ends up with Sansa on the Fe Thrown..
You can bet in bovada. Last I checked Sansa was second favorite behind Bran.
Edit after show: What an absolute tragedy, awful writing. What was Dany’s motivation for killing so many innocent people ? It’s so out of character and pointless. I wish they set up a situation where winning was contingent on killing innocents. Like USA dropping nuclear bombs in WW2. There is logic in killing so many, burn one could also say the ends did not justify the means.
She was just pure evil. Exactly what GRRM said he hates in characters.
I used to love this show. It’s still fun but not the all time show I thought it was.
I will start reading the books now. I expect more from them.
My money was on Gendry until last episode, when Daenerys got clever with him. I suspect his character is done now. But this is all plays into "Little Bird's" hand. Unless Arya is pregnant, and then it could get crazy. Jon Snow seems too easy.
My money is still on Hodor
You clearly haven't been watching the show you used to love very carefully if you are surprised by this.
First and most obvious, her family has a history of this...
She has done plenty of things throughout the series that extreme, all to get what she wants. As they pointed out after the show, she barely flinched when her brother died. She killed and killed and killed to get to the throne. Sam's dad and brother burned alive after surrendering. The list goes on and on man.
Major difference between burning soldiers and those who took up arms against her versus going through the town and killing thousands of innocent people.
She has never been about destroying innocent life. She risked her army and her friends to save humanity. She’s been a heroine for 7.5 seasons. Her flipping out after surrender bells was unfitting as her downfall. Cersei being redeemed was unfitting. Jaime going back to her after all she has done was unfitting.
At what point did Dany knowingly kill innocents?
She went so far as to chain up her dragons when one killed a small child. The people she's killed have always been enemy combatants.
There was no real reason for her turn other than "Welp, she's related to the Mad King, so she's the Mad Queen".
They've tried to play it up like's she's been doing all these irrational things, but what were they? She executed traitors in the Tarllys and Varys...which we've seen the most noble family do on a number of occasions (Ned, Robb and Jon all have executed traitors).
And why exactly did Varys think she would be a bad ruler? I can think of only one legitimate thing: She wanted to march her army south too quickly. And by the way, both Jon and Tyrion backed her on that. Sounds more like a shitty advisers problem.
The city is taken, Dany is soon to be queen, she's already instilled fear by laying waste to the army and navy in roughly 2.8 seconds andddddd....then she just snaps?
The episode was wonderful to watch, but the same storytelling issues were still in place.
I think they did an injustice by showing her "snap" when the bells rang. Her intention was to burn it all down the moment manbun, uh, Jon Snow, backed out of her kiss. She looked at him and said "then fear it is". Remember that she said only Jon had loved her, everyone else was ruled by fear alone. After the aborted kiss, she defaulted to 'rule through fear', and what better way to instill fear in your enemies - or subjects - than by remorselessly burning down all of Kings Landing and just totally leaving zero doubt about who's in charge?
That 'snapped' scene was ill-informed and probably should have come immediately following the kiss.
Thanks. You got me to really think about this. Appreciated. Also, I agree that this may have been one of the best episodes of the show ever... maybe 2nd only to the end of S6.
As I really thought about all of the Dany Apologists out there who don't want her to be a shitty (or insane) person, and I came up with well-reasoned responses to each of your points, I thwacked my forehead. I think there's more to this than whether she is or isn't nuts... or whether they wrote it well or didn't.
Its late in the game, so we're watching for the change-up... and they're about to throw a curve past us.
Maybe her "madness" isn't about her bloodlust to turn Cersei's city to ash and rubble... nor is it about offing Cersei (she knows EXACTLY where she is and could easily destroy her). It isn't about eliciting fear in the unwashed masses when they learn what she & her dragon did to King's Landing. She wasn't attacking just the enemy troops or even the Red Keep. And she wasn't torching only the people of King's Landing. She was torching everything in sight... not discerning ally from enemy. Maybe we're all awash in the idea that she is or isn't suddenly the Mad Queen who has *snapped* and we're not asking the right question. Pledge... Turn...
How does she legitimately claim the Iron Throne?
I’m glad you still like the show but people who like it need to stop coming after those who don’t. After this episode this is full on malpractice and makes me laugh that Disney and HBO gave these writers deals to make more trash. They were sucking on George Martins tit the whole time and once they ran out of material they proved how they can do on their own. For those that liked it great, but for those that didn’t, and I haven’t since they ran out of material don’t come at us. It’s embarrasing how bad this show has come out and I’m on my knees praying Martin finishes the books.
A free points to address.
Im not surprised by what Dany did at all. No one is. What is surprising is that the writers executed it so poorly.
I did not think a single thing she has done, right up to the moment she kills innocents in the streets, was morally wrong. Actually, I think she went way out of her way to be good.
Ruling with fear makes some sense. BUT, obliterating a fleet and the golden company quickly would have more than inspired fear. If she’s really wanted to be extra, destroy the entire red keep. That would have been questionable, but defensible.
my basic point is her action was completely out of character and not believable.
You're out of line on the WWII business. The intent of the bombs was not to kill non-combatant civilians. Both Nagasaki and Hiroshima were military targets because of significant heavy industries and port facilities. Leaflets were dropped two weeks in advance, in both cities, warning to get out. Like them, or not, the bombs were used to avoid battlefield projections of more than one MILLION casualties should the Home Islands be invaded.
They were terrible, absolutely horrible, in action and in consequence, and will - hopefully - never be used again by anyone.
The WW2 equivalent of what Dany just did would have been the US nuking Tokyo after Japan surrendered.
By providing a justification for dropping those bombs, it sets a precedent that use of these weapons can be justified in the future.
Nuking those citizens should be seen as a black mark on America, the only nation in history to use these apocalyptic weapons on a population.
HUH!!!! Have you watched the show? He Dad is the Mad King...she is obviously becoming the Mad Queen. Also it is beyond great writing as her actions are the only thing that will push the rightful King Raygar "Jon Snow" Targaryion to take up against his psycho Aunt and claim his throne as he is right to do.
This whole series has been building to her losing it. She wants to free everyone, but deep down like Cersei she simply just wanted the throne.
You're watching characters develop the way GRRM built them and where they'll essentially land in the books too. Aside from some dialog (Tyrian!), expect the books to be pretty much the same, though the path they follow to get there might be somewhat different.
I don't know how you can think Dany's behavior was out of character. Did you watch her reaction to her brother being "crowned?" Or the glimpses we've received about how dark she can get (locking people in a vault, burning the Tarly brothers, pressing her own nephew at least twice to dummy up and be her man?) Or maybe you missed out on the genetic pre-disposition to go absolutely batshit when triggered, including the foreshadowing from her dad in Bran's vision: "BURN THEM ALL." Dany's been sliding in this direction ever since she stepped out of her husband's funeral pyre... and when she was standing crazy-eyed in the window at the start of this episode... sleep and food deprived... you KNEW it was over.
She showed her lack of Pure Evil as the bells rang. There was that other side (and give it up to EC for how she sold it)... the tears, the way she breathed... the realization it was over, a moment of resistance to the Targaryen DNA drive to devour the world... and then "Let it be fear" became manifest as she destroyed King's Landing. Just like before.
Nothing you're saying actually makes sense. Look at the examples you've given:
Her brother who abused her and used her to forward his own claim to the throne?
Locking people in a vault... who conspired to steal her dragons and wanted her dead?
The Tarllys, who chose to act as traitors in the eyes of the queen (even if they didn't consider her their queen)? They were given every opportunity to join forces and turned that opportunity down. When Tyrion suggests they join the Night's Watch, Tarlly spits on that idea before Dany can even give it an answer.
I don't really see how her giving Jon the obvious out so that they could be together and have her reign as queen applies to what you are saying.
The idea of laying waste to King's Landing was perfectly fine, but it was not well thought out.
The reason I’m so jaded against Sansa is, in the book, Ned planned on taking his daughters and men home by ship. However, Sansa, desperate to not leave King’s Landing, had informed Cersei of her father’s plan. I would take Yara on the throne before her.
Yara seems like she’s down for a party.
I think she got pay back from turning in her Father. She was trapped in Kings Landing and got abused by Jeofforey then had to shack up with the Imp.
Sigh. Here we go.
Am I the only one who thinks there is like no rhyme or reason to anything happening?
Dany is suddenly godlike with Drogon? Even tho Euron sniped down Rhaegal in like 3 shots?
Cersei and Jaime dying together was the only decent part of this episode other than the special effects. Even then Jaime's character arc has completely gone to shit.
Arya literally can't die anymore, so there's 0 tension with any scene involving her.
Jon is useless and probably will end up killing Dany which is fine, but holy hell the ham-handed manner in which all this shit transpired is just dumb.
The show is fun to watch. That's it. Once you apply a little bit of thinking, you realize how bad it is.
I agree. Once d & d ran out of George’s source material the show has become typical tv tripe. Beautiful to look at. Movie quality even. But the plot contrivances this season and overall story direction has been well below par. Biggest eye roll of the night was Urine Greyjoy breaking the 4th wall to tell us he killed Jamie Lannister, lol worthy cheese there. So disappointed that they spent 2 yrs to make this and this is what they are giving us. Like you said, fun but not that great.
One wonders, didn't GRRM have some basic plot line for the showrunners, or will this be his chance to set it right in the books (if they ever come out) so we can find out what really happens?
I’m guessing Mad Queen is in the books but will be done correctly since GRRM has no time crunch
Jaime prolly kills Cersei cuz the prophecy exists more in the books.
Who knows what the White Walkers do.
Varys is completely different too since he’s associated with another Targ
I’m guessing Mad Queen is in the books but will be done correctly since GRRM has no time crunch
Well, there is a time crunch when you consider that he's 70 going on 71 and it takes him 4-5 years to crank out a novel. Doesn't look like he spends a lot of time on the treadmill either, so I think the odds are good that he never completes his epic.
Jon's dead meat. Bet.
I bet drogon won't kill Jon because he'll do the crocodile dundee beast calming hand trick on him.
I'm ready for Jon to be dead. He just plain gave up at Winterfell and stood up to wait for the ice dragon to kill him. And then he blindly followed Dany like some teenage boy following his first piece... Besides, he wears a manbun. Friends don't let friends wear manbuns.
I now understand you were talking about beilein...
Good call
Don't see that happening, Dany has no support in Westerns now besides her two small factions. 95% likely Jon kills her and her armies are banished from Westeros.
Buckle up!
Hopefully the “books were better” crowd will take the day off...
As coach Harbaugh says, “when you compare one side gets diminished” (paraphrasing).
I’m enjoying the series as pure entertainment.
Hoping for an exciting episode this afternoon!
The books are better, but I love the show and it’s one of the greatest of all time. It would’ve been even better if GRRM would’ve finished the last 2 books.
That's just lazy. The show didn't start out as just "pure entertainment". It was complex, layered, with excellent character interactions. The writers used to seem like geniuses, because they had books to follow, and they did it faithfully (for the most part). Now it's just... I don't really know, but it's real bad.
Commence the bitching and whining in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1......
Not after tonight. That was pure excellence.
Pretty much any weakness regarding tonight's episode stems from the failures of the writers over the past 11 episodes. But tonight was spectacular.
the dead guy isn't dead. mark my worms....
(not a typo)
One down.
So the show acknowledges that Arya can kill Cersei with ease, but it was never part of the official plan?
The plan all along was to have Cersei die in her little brothers hands
Shhh...some of us are on the West Coast!
by west coast, do you mean surfaced in your sub off of alaska, near siberia?
Sarah Palin can see you from her front porch, comrade.
Westeros coast
Besteros coast
One of the better episodes of the last few seasons.
Dany is now on the list.....
I dunno. Reminded me of unforgiven when William Munny killed Greely and Little Bill told him he just killed an unarmed man. Munny says he should've armed himself if he was going to decorate the bar with his friend. Everyone under Cercei should have been packing.
Legitimately great episode. The best since the season 6 finale and maybe even better than that.