Let's argue
Harbaugh's indecision regarding offensive philosophy and quarterbacks last year led to suboptimal performance that was never going to Big 10 title worthy but still underperformed relative to what the team could have accomplished.
John O'Korn's tweets were accurate.
Lloyd Carr is the best football coach in Michigan football history despite his performance vs. Tressel, which was primarily a result of our best teams coming in even years.
Moeller would have won the national championship in '97 and didn't deserve to be fired.
Steve Fisher deserved to be fired but is a good person.
Jim Tressel deserved to be fired but is a good person.
Urban Meyer is a bad person who won't be fired.
Urban Meyer is the best coach in college football.
OSU has handled the Meyer saga appropriately to date.
Chris Floyd is the most under appreciated player in Michigan football history.
Louis Bullock was awesome.
Daniel Horton should have been kicked out of U of M.
Herman Moore was better than Calvin Johnson.
Alan Trammell was better than Cal Ripken Jr.
Harbaugh's loss to Iowa in 2016 was due to an overly conservative game plan and cost us a chance at the playoffs.
We would have likely still lost to Louisville if Trey's block hadn't been called.
Zingerman's is so much better than Maize and Blue deli that even comparing the two is an insult to Zingerman's.
The 2013 fg vs. Northwestern should have been a false start.
Wisconsin will be the best team in the B10 this year.
TomVH was the best thing this website had going for it until umbig11.
Ulizio winning RT last year was a bad sign and not just in hindsight.
Lewerke will be a first round draft pick in 2020.
Spielman and Herbie are two of the best in the business.
Tiger Woods will win the PGA.
Sorry but you are wrong.
Michigan's larger problem is being able to finish out a season strong and with rare exception that has happen all the way back to 2001!
The problem is not something you can blame a singular coach for and is cultural. Harbaugh's job is to fix that and then we won't be talking about QB issues.
Note: This is in response to your first point.
I think the "finishing a season strong" stuff is meaningless. Most of the harder games come at the end (i.e., OSU, a good bowl team, non-MAC teams) and injuries have often accrued. Also, @Iowa late in the season is a legit difficult game no matter the year.
August 5th, 2018 at 10:32 PM ^
Injuries occur for everyone
And you don't think they hit some teams harder in some years?
Let me pick off the low hanging fruit. Meyer is a bad person who WILL be fired.
Fielding Yost - Michigan GOAT coach. Of course there is a huge bias towards people who coached during our lifetime or even our grandparents’ lifetime, but his accomplishments are second to none
Had to log in to co-sign. Host created Michigan Football’s legacy that lives through to today. Winningest program? Started with Yost. Largest Stadium? Started with Yost. Want to have some linebackers on the field? They were invented by Yost. Having a conviction that nowhere is better than this Michigan of ours? Yeah, Yost.
Also will sign this. Yost is so far ahead of the pack it's not funny, even taking into account his racist actions. If it wasn't for the racism he'd be the GOAT of all college football coaches.
And he had a philosophy of scoring a point a minute
I have seen several kickers start early and not get flagged for a false start. I really don't know the rule, but when Gibbons did it, I thought for sure it would draw a flag.
The line wasn't set either.
Lmao at the Lewerke comment.
I argue that your username should have been FLion
No way we lose to Louisville if that foul isn’t called. I think we win the game going away if that isn’t called. And Bellerive is going to be playing over 7600 yards and Tiger is still terrified of his driver. He will win another major, probably an Open Champiomship, but not this one.
I don't watch enough golf to know these things ... what specifically about his driver game does Tiger have a problem with?
Hitting it in the general vicinity of the fairway.
Going away? There were only a couple minutes left. Wouldn't Louisville still have the lead? That's a very homer assumption. The block would have given Michigan a good shot but can't say more than that really.
6 or 7 minutes left, I think it was Louisville by 3. We needed one break to take momentum back completely, and would have had a 4 on 2 coming back the other with Hardaway with the rock. We were about to roll them.
Checked it out. 5 minutes left. Yes, Louisville up 3. When it happened, Michigan had 4 players inside the 3 point line and Louisville had 2. So there definitely wouldn't have been a fast break.
I'm bored and it's too hot to go outside. Just looking for some Michigan related debates. If anyone else has some reasonably controversial Michigan subjects to debate, I'd love to hear them. I was just listing anything that came to mind.
A lot of your claims are totally reasonable. People like to complain and of course we're homers but some people take it to an extreme that makes them unreasonable and whiny.
August 5th, 2018 at 10:46 PM ^
FWIW I clicked on this late. I saw your first premise or two and thought this was the worst thread ever. But as I read onwards through your mix of daring, wrong, accurate, and bizarre takes, it grew on me tremendously.
This is actually something that I wish we had in the doldrums a couple of weeks ago, because it deserves to start a real food fight. You know, intense-looking, messy, but all in good fun.
"Harbaugh's indecision regarding offensive philosophy and quarterbacks last year led to suboptimal performance that was never going to Big 10 title worthy but still underperformed relative to what the team could have accomplished."
Not entirely accurate. A few things need to be put into perspective:
1.) Anybody who was paying attention closely knew that last season was going to end up being a drop-off season. Michigan lost a LOT of talent in the 2016-17 draft. Doesn't matter who you are; that sort of loss will negatively affect you
2.) I believe at least part of Speight's regression from 2016 to 2017 stems from shellshock. He took quite a hit while in Iowa that IMO did a lot to change that game and everything thereafter.
3.) A LOT of the offense's problems stem from Drevno. For whatever reason his O-line coaching was subpar. Incidentally, I was initially one of the people blaming Pep Hamilton, who came in to replace Jedd Fisch, but if you watch the Michigan special on Amazon you'll see that Pep is anything but a weakness for us.
4.) O'Korn was what he was. Good coaching will only raise a player so far if that player does not have the complete mental and physical package to follow.
5.) Peters didn't help himself. Reports around camp said that he did not carry himself as a leader. Whether or not you subscribe to how much impressions should lend themselves to performance, if you don't act like a leader, you won't be considered a leader.
6.) We had an 8-5 season, but consider the following:
-Despite our poor showing against MSU, we were still only one play away from winning the game (if you recall, there was a pass thrown to a wide open receiver in the last minute of the game, and it was dropped. He would have waltzed into the endzone)
-Until Peters was clocked in the Wisconsin game, we were hanging with them pretty well.
-Same with OSU and SoCar; despite our inferior offense, we STILL were in that game up until the final minutes.
-Truth of the matter is, with the exception of the Penn State game, we could have turned it around in any one of our other losses. We just as easily could have been 12-1 instead of 8-5 even with our deficiencies. Think about that for a bit.
McDoom was open but he wasn’t going to waltz into the end zone. It was going to be a nice chunk play but not a score.
McDoom could have shook the defender and scored, if only he caught the ball...
Wall of text incoming:
Yeah, I agree. This is my perspective on last season. We lost almost an entire team. And our schedule included tough away games to Wisconsin, Penn State and a neutral game vs Florida. Ohio State would win the B1G (i.e. they were very good), and Michigan State bounced back into a solid 10 win team. So there's that. Then we lose the most important piece of our underdeveloped offense (Speight) 4 weeks into the season. The most talented backup wasn't prepared to play until the latter half of the season. Our offensive line (the biggest weakpoint considering a lack of experience and missing it's best true left tackle) suffers under the split coaching of two different philosophies. Meanwhile, our run game remains above water (top 50) despite facing loaded boxes every week from tough defenses.
On offense, the best wide receivers are freshman, and the best of them goes down in the 3rd game. And Drevno's complicated system falls flat as the general inexperience leads to many biffs, busts, and broken plays. Throw in a monsoon, a revenge game played during a white out (possibly the toughest away game environment outside of Kinnick at night), and Wisconsin at Camp Randall maximizing every mistake possible (miffed punt turns into TD, DPJ out of bounds in the end zone by a hair, our redshirt freshman QB fumbling on the 1 yard-line as he tries to make a play), and you've got the makings of a disaster type season.
As Notre Dame, Michigan State, Ohio State, and Florida State can attest to, shit happens. Notre Dame went from national runner-up to 4-8 in 3 years. Michigan State racked up double-digit wins several years in a row, then goes 3-9 due to injuries, suspensions, and general dysfunction. Ohio State lost their best players, their coach and their dignity due to offseason scandal (in 2011, not this year.....yet) and went a horrible by their standards 6-6. Florida State was primed for another run at the playoff last year, starting off strong against Bama. After battling for 3 quarters, their starting QB goes down and the season spirals out of control into a 7-6 result.
tldr: given the circumstances, and examples of "down years" from other similar programs, you'd expect a final record of 4-8 to 7-6. Instead, Harbaugh pulls out 8-5 with every game kept within a winnable margin (except for Penn State, thank god Barkley can't hurt us again). If everything goes wrong and the floor is 8-5, I can't wait to see a what Harbaugh team with a few lucky breaks looks like.
1. Michigan lost more defensive talent than offensive and its defense was younger than the offense. It was the defense that we expected to take a step back and a returning starting QB on offense was suppose to offset most the offensive departures. Instead the D was phenomenal again and the offense was a jabroni. Msu had more starters leave than us yet still had a better season. It can be done despite mass exodus.
3. Drevno needed to go but thinking Pep is amazing based on a heavily edited Amazon series is ridiculous. He has yet to prove his worth. Re-watch our passing offense all season. It was embarrassing. It is what Pep is in charge of.
4. O'Korn was not good but he was a 3100 yard, 28-10 td/int QB as a freshmen. The fact we could not even coach him up into an almost serviceable back up in 3 years here is a failure.
6. We got out coached against msu. O'Korn threw 35 passes in monsoon weather compared to Higdon only getting 14 touches. Bad game plan. If you want mention we were a play away from beating state then it's only fair to mention we were also a play away from losing to Indiana. We were no where near 12-1.
Who is the most immoral program in the BIG East:
OSU: AD and head coach know that assistant coach battered wife. Don't fire the assistant. Head coach currently suspended .
UM: kicker rapes student, OL threatened to rape her again if she talks. Kicker plays for nearly three seasons, then kicked off team. OL made team captain. Everybody knew about the rape (board, president, AD, head coach), but did nothing for almost three years. Nobody in the program (other than kicker) ever disciplined.
PSU: in its own category.
MSU: also in its own category.
You rank them.
OSU troll: I don't think you really want to get into all the crimes committed/swept under the rug by Urban Meyer's programs under his watch.
I don’t think the Gibbons case was handled well but Rich Rodriguez, Dave Brandon and Brady Hoke all got what was coming to them in the end. What are you going to do with Meyer?
Now this is the type of comment I was looking for.
Glad to chip in. Since you want to argue, I will throw more flame on the fire.
A scandal has two components: what was the actual wrong done and who at the institution knew/how did they respond.
On the second component, the UM kicker scandal is the worst I have ever heard of, since the board, president, AD and head coach all knew, but let player play for nearly three years.
At PSU, once the board knew, they took actual meaningful action, including firing the head coach.
I am not as familiar with the MSU scandal, but have never heard that its board knew and did nothing.
OSU has already imposed more discipline than UM did since OSU has suspended Meyer for a few days, and literally zero discipline was imposed at UM.
The reason that the coach knew about Gibbons was because the Title IX office investigated his case. The President wouldn't have known, and it's likely that the AD knew.
The alleged victim refused to cooperate, so the Title IX office couldn't proceed, under the rules in effect at the time (2009-2010). The rules were changed by the Dept of Education in 2012. Under the new rules, cases were to be pursued even in the absence of the cooperation of the accuser, and the standard of proof was lowered to the civil standard of preponderance of evidence (the same as for academic misconduct).
With the new rules in hand, Michigan's OSCR re-opened the case, and found Gibbons guilty of violating the University’s Student Sexual Misconduct Policy (not rape, as the OSCR had no power to adjudicate whether a crime had occurred - just whether there was a student conduct violation). Since the President reviews all expulsions before they are enacted, that's when he became aware of the issue.
There was not "literally zero discipline ...imposed at UM." Gibbons was kicked out of school, just as Urban should be if he violated his contract's standards of conduct.
None of this is secret or hard to understand, and if Gibbon's misconduct is "the worst [you] have ever heard of," you are the most ignorant person I have ever heard of.
excellent answer.
troll silence = deafening.
August 5th, 2018 at 10:04 PM ^
Well, title nine has no application to OSU issue, since Smith's wife was not an employee or student. Therefore - using your logic - there was and is nothing for Urban or OSU to do.
At the end of the day, a UM student was raped by a player, and nobody acted to protect her or other UM students. And nobody at the institution was disciplined for knowing of the rape and failing to act.
And can you read? Never said the kicker's conduct was the worst. What i said was I was not aware of any situation in the which the board knew of the misconduct and did nothing. Really is stunning. Even PSU's board did better.
let me clarify some issues about title IX: the mandatory reporter's obligation is not contingent on who the victim is, only that the reporter had knowledge of an incident of sexual assault or DV. they then have the duty to report the abuse, and at least in michigan, must file a written report in most cases no later than 72 hrs after acquiring the knowledge. can be a criminal offense for a mandatory reporter to fail to report.
so whether shelley thought the victim was the butcher, the baker or the candlestick maker matters not, only that she was informed of the abuse. that triggers her reporting requirement.
August 5th, 2018 at 10:24 PM ^
I forgot to respond to your comment about zero disciple. Yes, UM' s kicker was kicked out. And OSU's assistant coach was fired.
But what happened to those at the institution who knew and did not act? The answer to that at UM is zero.
Harbaugh's indecision regarding offensive philosophy and quarterbacks last year led to suboptimal performance that was never going to Big 10 title worthy but still underperformed relative to what the team could have accomplished.
Fair
John O'Korn's tweets were accurate.
100% accurate
Lloyd Carr is the best football coach in Michigan football history despite his performance vs. Tressel, which was primarily a result of our best teams coming in even years.
Not when Bo, and Fielding Yost existed
Moeller would have won the national championship in '97 and didn't deserve to be fired.
Agreed
Steve Fisher deserved to be fired but is a good person.
Agreed and disagreed respectively
Jim Tressel deserved to be fired but is a good person.
Agreed and disagreed respectively
Urban Meyer is a bad person who won't be fired.
Agreed and disagreed respectively
Urban Meyer is the best coach in college football.
Not while Saban exists
OSU has handled the Meyer saga appropriately to date.
Agreed
Chris Floyd is the most under appreciated player in Michigan football history.
I've always felt like Breaston wasn't revered enough
Louis Bullock was awesome.
Agreed
Daniel Horton should have been kicked out of U of M.
Agreed
Herman Moore was better than Calvin Johnson.
You're crazy
Alan Trammell was better than Cal Ripken Jr.
I feel like if you don't hold this opinion you aren't very much a student of baseball history
Harbaugh's loss to Iowa in 2016 was due to an overly conservative game plan and cost us a chance at the playoffs.
QB play was fairly bad as well
We would have likely still lost to Louisville if Trey's block hadn't been called.
Sure, the block call was merely a symptom of a much bigger problem in the game
Zingerman's is so much better than Maize and Blue deli that even comparing the two is an insult to Zingerman's.
Emphatically agreed
The 2013 fg vs. Northwestern should have been a false start.
I've never understood this rule
Wisconsin will be the best team in the B10 this year.
Naw
TomVH was the best thing this website had going for it until umbig11.
UFR is pretty dope
Ulizio winning RT last year was a bad sign and not just in hindsight.
Who would argue against this?
Lewerke will be a first round draft pick in 2020.
Oh hi Graham Couch
Spielman and Herbie are two of the best in the business.
Yes and absolutely not respectively
Tiger Woods will win the PGA.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha. No.
THese are the correct answers
Tiger was winning on Sunday at the British. He keeps inching closer and he'll get it done.
Wait so you think Fisher is a bad guy and Meyer is a good guy?
You wanna read that again there sport?
"Steve Fisher deserved to be fired but is a good person.
Agreed and disagreed respectively"
So you agreed he deserved to be fired and disagreed he's a good person.
Ulizio: were you not here 12 months ago? Nearly everyone argued against it, and the few who recognized it was "a bad sign and not just in hindsight" were obliterated off the board and sent to Bolivia. For everybody else, it was only in hindsight.
August 5th, 2018 at 10:00 PM ^
Naw son. Some of us took our lumps for saying it portended bad things but also didn't feel the need to leave and/or come back and gloat.
August 5th, 2018 at 10:39 PM ^
No. Somewittyname posted that opinion in a very snarky way. Then defended himself when he got negged a bit, which is never a good idea. Then repeatedly displayed jackassery in multiple threads over multiple days.
At some point the meltdown became historical and it snowballed into something amazing and everyone kept it going to see how far we could take it. Dude went from over 3000 mgopoints built up over a few years to -2000 in a few days. That's actually what happened. He was essentially sent to Bolivia by the masses for defending his snark, not his Ulizio opinion, and everyone piled on when it got out of hand.
I disagree with all but one of your assertions. ;-)
Herman Moore over Megatron? Hell no!
Agreed about Trammel. I'll go one step further ... Ripken Jr one of the most overrated stars in MLB history. a few great seasons. The rest is all about the streak.