Borges' WRs
I was curious to see what you mgobloggers think of the direction we are headed with recievers. It is very clear that Borges has a type when it comes to reciever recruiting: nearly every one is 6-3 or above, and speed is a secondary priority to catching ability. This is in sharp contrast to RR's short & speedy WRs, and even Lloyd's policy of best WR available (as it seemed to me). So, what do you think about this type of WR? They fit different schemes, but which do you prefer in general? Personally, I would like a bit more priority on speed, but I think our passing offense with Shane and a plethora of tall recievers will be easily as effective as RR's passing offense would be at its best, and coupled with a hopefully effective power run game we should have one hell of an offense.
February 10th, 2012 at 9:50 PM ^
From my knowledge of tall guys which is lacking (5'11") I would say if we stay with the arm punt offense and get the occasional speed slot guy then I think the offense could be really good. I'm still praying we get in on either Foster or Quick. They would be amazing with Dukes and I hope Treadwell.
February 10th, 2012 at 9:53 PM ^
This is pretty much where I'm at, too. I love that we are still getting guys like Norfleet along with our tall WRs. Big WRs fit the offense well, and we will do well with them, but there's always room for a speedy slot guy in any offense, and I would hate for us to neglect that.
February 10th, 2012 at 9:49 PM ^
there is no substitute for speed. If a kid has speed and works hard on his route running skills through coaching then that's pure danger.
February 11th, 2012 at 12:11 AM ^
You can teach speed. You can't teach height.
February 11th, 2012 at 10:15 AM ^
That's true to a very minor extent. If a guy just isn't fast, then training may make him become a bit faster but he's not going to become elite...
February 11th, 2012 at 11:38 AM ^
What really makes a WR elite is good route-running. A guy with a 4.6 who runs very crisp routes will get open faster than a 4.5 guy who runs them sloppily.
February 11th, 2012 at 2:50 PM ^
And a receiver with 4.4 speed can say I'm going to run in a straight lin and be wide open.
We definitely need to land taller receivers for the pro-style offense, but having someone who can make a defense pay for loading the box is important. Remember when Ted GInn would run a go route off of play action on 3rd and 1? Yea, it was rough. If we don't get someone who poses a threat with his speed we turn into the Michigan version of the 2011 Patriots: good, but not great.
February 10th, 2012 at 9:50 PM ^
Give me a receiver with great hands, what good is great speed if you can't catch the ball! Marquise Walker is a great example, not great speed, but caught everything that was close, I would take 3 of him all day!
February 10th, 2012 at 11:05 PM ^
Do you know what Marquise Walker was like as a recruit? Saying you'd take 3 of him every day is like me saying I'd take 3 Stefon Diggs every day.
February 10th, 2012 at 11:25 PM ^
Well, the one committed to Maryland tonight, so that means we're getting the other two? Awesome! And here everyone scoffed at all those "what's happening with Diggs" posts.
February 11th, 2012 at 1:01 AM ^
What does his recruit ranking have to do with the question at hand? Was just pointing out that I would rather have a great hands than great speed, rankings have nothing to do with it.
February 11th, 2012 at 10:30 AM ^
issue is about the current approach to developing a class of WR's. This starts with recruiting. Although there are dynamite 5-star players on both extremes--good hands vs good spped--you can't bank on that during recruiting. Most coaching staffs are going to rely on bringing in players with just decent hands, or just decent speed. They'll then develop the attributes that they like the best, will work with the scheme, etc.
Getting the guys who are sure-fire "great hands" or "great speed" doesn't always work out. You have to develop a lot of this, and it starts with recruiting.
February 10th, 2012 at 9:51 PM ^
that height seems to trump speed in wideouts for Borges, but don't Darboh and Chesson have decent 40 times?
I agree that speed has its place, look at the NFL stars, beyond Megatron and Johnson, they seem like an even blend of speed and height. I too fear that these giants can't get separation. We seemed to have trouble getting open vs. Va Tech. even with our current guys.
February 10th, 2012 at 9:54 PM ^
If you watched the Giants in the Superbowl you would say they have the ideal reveiving corps minus the pass catching tight end. They have Cruz who is a speedy and fairly large receiver in the slot who can just gash a defense going across the middle. They have Nicks, who is quite large and can go up and get it. And then of course, they have Super Mario who can use his speed to burn a defense deep as was done in the Superbowl. Each of them bring something unique to the passing game, but I think each is essential in their own way. I would like to see a similar stategy with Michigan's receivers. Guys that can be used in a variety of circumstances and each provide different threats for the defense to contend with.
February 10th, 2012 at 10:15 PM ^
I don't think Mario was leaving the defenders in the dust with his speed. He usually had defenders around him. I think his good hands made the difference in his catches.
February 11th, 2012 at 3:10 AM ^
Mario's combine time was about 4.6 as I recall, but he is "football fast" and gets separation with his moves.
February 10th, 2012 at 9:58 PM ^
ask Keyshon about speed I dont think speed is the win all solution all the time.
February 10th, 2012 at 10:02 PM ^
from my knowledge of playing NCAA Football (the video game... not actual football),
catching abilityand height allows us to run a plethora of plays effectively... but the bubble screens wont work. Which is a shame because we all know how much Borges likes to run those.
February 10th, 2012 at 10:04 PM ^
Well to be honest Borges needs to stop using them as a crutch. Whenever the offense stalled you could always count on a bubble screen to try and get us out of funk, it got really predictable by the end of the year
February 10th, 2012 at 10:56 PM ^
Please tell me this is sarcasm.
February 11th, 2012 at 1:58 PM ^
Yes it was, forgot to put the /s tag on it
February 10th, 2012 at 10:02 PM ^
It's partly the safety of it, even if your receivers are only big and tall, the QB can throw a quick 5-7 yard pass over the top of a smaller CB and let the WR go over the top of or box out the secondary and move the chains and keep drives going
February 10th, 2012 at 10:07 PM ^
No offense to the under 6' players, but I wasn't all that comfortable with jumpballs for completions this past year. Sometimes they worked out great for big plays, but I was never confident about them. I'm happy to see more emphasis on height, although tall & speedy would be great. I think a 6' minimum is about right. Admittedly, Anthony Carter was only 5'11", so exceptions can always be made!
February 10th, 2012 at 10:14 PM ^
IMO give me catching ability and height over speed any day. I'd much rather complete easy 10 yard passes thrown to a guy 4, 5, 6 inches taller than the defender with no yards after catch instead of throwing more difficult passes into traffic and hope the pass is complete and then burn you with speed. This is just my personal preference but big WR's can just kill a defense. The patriots love throwing to their big TE's and even Standford did something similar.
February 10th, 2012 at 10:17 PM ^
John Standeford WAS a great receiver for Purdue. I forgot all about him... 6'4" too.
February 10th, 2012 at 11:29 PM ^
"This is just my personal preference but big WR's can just kill a defense."
I realize you said it's your preference, but I could easily put "small and fast" in there instead of "big" and it would hold just as much weight. The Patriots' best receiver the last couple years has been Wes Welker. And I might even argue that Randy Moss was a speed guy more than a "big WR" but since he was 6'4", it could go either way; he used his speed more than his size, but I'm not going to argue that he fits in the "small and fast" category.
DeSean Jackson, Mario Manningham, Steve Smith, etc. are all good receivers.
On the flip side, Andre Johnson, Hakeem Nicks, Calvin Johnson, etc. are good receivers, too.
What can we take away from this? Good receivers are good. It doesn't matter how tall, short, fast, or slow you are (within reason).
Frankly, I hope Michigan recruits all kinds of receivers. The best receiving corps we had was the tall-ish/fast Braylon Edwards, the slow/average-sized Jason Avant, and the speedy/small-ish Steve Breaston. Michigan could kill you with short passes, deep passes, intermediate passes, you name it. Hooray for diversity.
February 11th, 2012 at 1:10 AM ^
Well said old sport
February 11th, 2012 at 7:11 AM ^
Well said, I hope we recruit all kinds of receivers, too. And the thing is, maybe that is exactly what Borges is doing. What sort of receiver are we currently lacking? The tall ones, hence the recruitment of them. Perhaps in 3-4 years if we see a roster full of 6'3-plus guys we'll see Borges start going after more of the average-small size variety.
February 11th, 2012 at 7:12 AM ^
why the auto-neg?
February 10th, 2012 at 10:21 PM ^
Lots of guys can run. Cornerbacks especially. So in my estimation if you have a guy who is 6'3 ,and runs a 4.5, and can jump it's an advantage in a lot of ways over a guy who is 6'0 and, can run a 4.4, and doesn't have the hops to go up a get jump balls. Especially in the vertical passing game. And I think as Borges offense becomes more of a pro-style which he prefers it will be a big advantage for us to have guys who can be deep jump ball threats in the vertical passing game.
February 10th, 2012 at 10:21 PM ^
Lots of guys can run. Cornerbacks especially. So in my estimation if you have a guy who is 6'3 ,and runs a 4.5, and can jump it's an advantage in a lot of ways over a guy who is 6'0 and, can run a 4.4, and doesn't have the hops to go up a get jump balls. Especially in the vertical passing game. And I think as Borges offense becomes more of a pro-style which he prefers it will be a big advantage for us to have guys who can be deep jump ball threats in the vertical passing game.
February 10th, 2012 at 10:21 PM ^
Lots of guys can run. Cornerbacks especially. So in my estimation if you have a guy who is 6'3 ,and runs a 4.5, and can jump it's an advantage in a lot of ways over a guy who is 6'0 and, can run a 4.4, and doesn't have the hops to go up a get jump balls. Especially in the vertical passing game. And I think as Borges offense becomes more of a pro-style which he prefers it will be a big advantage for us to have guys who can be deep jump ball threats in the vertical passing game.
February 10th, 2012 at 11:00 PM ^
In a perfect world you get all three - pass catching, height, and speed. However, seeing as those type of wideouts don't exactly grow on trees, I would rather have ones that can actually catch things than just threaten to catch things behind the D but flub it somehow.
I know they aren't pure receivers, but rumor has it Norfleet and Drake Johnson both have quite a bit of speed to them.
February 10th, 2012 at 11:16 PM ^
Go with the reliable ball-catcher. There aren't many shut-down collegiate corners, so teach good route running and move the ball downfield. I am definitely a fan of what Borges has been doing
February 10th, 2012 at 11:22 PM ^
Who did you prefer this season? Junior or Tree/Gallon? Give me a big WR with hands all day
February 10th, 2012 at 11:43 PM ^
Why does Calvin Johnson catch everything in site? Because he's Megatron. He's also fast as hell, but a lot of DBs are pretty fast as well. I don't know of any that are 6 5" with a 43 inch vertical (damn). I feel like that's a tougher matchup. Of course the DBs aren't as fast across the board as they are in the NFL but the teams we'll be competing against for championships will have some fast ones. They won't have guys to lock down our incoming tight ends and man sized receivers. In conclusion, speed kills, but so does the power of flight.
(With that said, I'm incredibly excited about Dennis Norfleet)
February 11th, 2012 at 1:28 AM ^
I'm not sure size/speed are the only factors the coaches are looking for in recruits. Obviously everyone would love to have a bunch of 6'5" wideouts that run a 4.3, but how often do those guys come around? Personally, I think things like blocking, route running, and coordination are the biggest contributors to making succesful recivers. That's why you can plug a guy like Odoms or Gallon into the outside reciever role in this offense and still have success. Is taller and faster ideal? Yes. Mandatory? No.
February 11th, 2012 at 1:37 AM ^
February 11th, 2012 at 7:15 AM ^
I don't think Borges has a type as much as he is filling a need. What sort of receivers are we currently lacking? The tall ones. Perhaps in 3-4 years if our roster look a little different you'll see him doing more of what you described as Carr's policy, taking the best available regardless of size.
February 11th, 2012 at 7:15 AM ^
and why the auto-neg?
February 11th, 2012 at 8:07 AM ^
I know he liked the short and speedy type receivers but my question is...where are they? seems like Hoke has gotten more that type than RR...Hayes and possibly Norfleet. To me, it seemed like RR recruited a lot of slot ninjas but really none of them have/had blazing speed.
February 11th, 2012 at 10:08 AM ^
RR's philosophy was more about quickness, somebody points out below that we have quick recievers but not necessarily fast ones. There is a difference.
Also, the spread 'n' shread is really about running the ball, not passing the ball, you spread out the defense and use the openings as running lanes, so recievers absolutely need to be able to block as well as catch the ball. Thats why we end with mountain goats like Odoms and Gallon.
February 11th, 2012 at 8:15 AM ^
at this point like many have said it is best to have a good combination, tough to find one who can do it all, that's why we only hand out the #1 on rare occassions. Having larger receivers, 6'3 or taller is a bigger weapon than what we currently have, seems to be more options, as well as better production in the area of blocking...sans Tay Odoms.
February 11th, 2012 at 8:38 AM ^
i think everyone is missing the point here. Everything starts at hte hands. Big, small, fast, or slow, if a guy can't catch size and speed don't matter.
February 11th, 2012 at 8:47 AM ^
February 11th, 2012 at 9:11 AM ^
..don't assume Jaron Dukes is just like every other 6'3+ guy we're recruiting. Laquon Treadwell, Kevin Gladney, Robert Foster, Marquez North, Uriah Lemay...all of these guys have speed to burn.. Not to mention that one of our top targets (James Quick) doesn't even appear to be up to his listed height (6'1) and he would be a phenomenal WR
February 11th, 2012 at 9:16 AM ^
... that you can use a tremendous in-the-air playmaker like Junior Hemingway to bail you out of some very tough spots. But that's generally just one weapon in the arsenal. Va Tech, I'd wager, really gave us a preview of how the more athletic defenses on the schedule are going to want to play us-- press coverage and dare us to get behind them. We just flat did not have the speed at receiver to take the top off of the D in that game, and it showed-- I mean, it looked like we were playing 11-on-15 out there all night.
That said, IIRC, Darboh falls into the "fast enough" category to imagine he could stretch that type of a defense vertically when it's necessary.
You know what I'll bet really intrigued Borges this year? The Patriots offense. That was an interesting experiment in trotting out multiple big, athletic TE's that created terrible matchup problems for defensive backs and using them as part of a base offense, mixed with some slot ninja Wes Welker action. The problem with the experiment is that it's really tough to give the scheme much credence without seeing someone besides Tom Brady make it work for a season. Still, can't you imagine Borges trotting out a 3-TE set as a passing offense one of these days? It would be kinda cool to see.
February 11th, 2012 at 9:48 AM ^
February 11th, 2012 at 10:00 AM ^
This is in sharp contrast to RR's short & speedy WRs, and even Lloyd's policy of best WR available (as it seemed to me).I don't think this is much different from Carr's philosophy. Carr's go-to WRs were almost invariably 6'2" or taller. RR liked the shorter guys, but he was more into quickness than breakaway speed. As we saw in 2011, our WR corps (almost entirely recruited by RR) had some difficulties getting deep separation. The most productive receiver we had in RR's tenure was Roundtree, who is not particularly fast.
February 11th, 2012 at 10:02 AM ^
They've been named Hayes and Norfleet. With the number of slot ninjas we still had on the roster, one a year seems about right. I don't have any reason to believe we won't continue to recruit big outside receivers and smaller slot guys.