ijohnb

October 4th, 2016 at 1:21 PM ^

do want to talk hoops and I have been hearing all kinds of differing opinions, but that one in particular seems like needless DOOM to me.  Trey Burke was a middling recruit without any real offers and Caris Levert was literally nobody.  To basically declare Watson a bust before he steps on the floor seems misguided. 

Lou MacAdoo

October 4th, 2016 at 1:51 PM ^

All of them. I know the bigs generally take more time, but one of them and Ibi could be ready to contibute. I choose to stay optimistic until I'm let down. I've found it to be much better than being pessimistic all of the time. Beilein didn't forget how to recruit and coach. Down years and misses in recruiting happen. There are very few coaches that have their teams consistently winning their conference. We don't have one of them, but the one we have is damn good.

CorkyCole

October 4th, 2016 at 1:49 PM ^

The thing that bothers me with Irvin and Walton is that both players at one point in their careers were much better at certain things than they were last season.

Beilein even said before the season last year that Irvin wouldn't be back to normal until this season because of how much he lost from his back injury. I really think that halted his progression, and he was clearly a better shooter his freshman year.  Showed some additional promise as "the guy" his sophomore year as the Big 10 Season went along.

Walton even more so I just don't get. The guy showed HUGE potential his freshman year and was extremely good driving the ball to the rim, making some big Burkesque shots, and was at the same time a terrific shooter. His shot came back last year, but I really think his injury to his toe really hampered his progression as well.

Do I expect either of these guys to all of a sudden play a huge step up from last season? No, I do not. But I also can't deny that there's potential for both to show huge improvements. Irvin moreso from an athleticism standpoint and getting his 3pt shot better, and Walton around the rim.

rainingmaize

October 4th, 2016 at 12:21 PM ^

We were a tournament team that returned five starters. They may not get better by much, but they should get better. Wagner turned it on at the end of last year and might finally give us a rim protector that we really lacked last year. Speaking of things that we really lacked last year, we finally have a back up point guard, which will hopefully take some things off of Walton's plate. We also have some new members on the coaching staff which might refresh some things. It also sounds like they are committed to making changes on defense. 

CorkyCole

October 4th, 2016 at 1:58 PM ^

This is an honest and very good perspective. I have a hard time not seeing this team make the tournament this year mostly because we do return every starter and have the X factor as an additional PG. Even if there are some rough spots this season, we should also expect to see some entertaining success that gives us some more hope.

CaliUMfan

October 4th, 2016 at 12:22 PM ^

I'll give it a shot. If a healthy Irvin can combine the best flashes of his game from the last two seasons consistently, then we have a go to player.

If X can provide solid minutes at the , then Walton can play some of those minutes off the ball where his catch and shoot ability will be utilized better.

MAAR has shown flashes of being a solid 3rd option who can both get to the rim and has an improving jumpshot. As a Junior, he will hopefully add some consistency to those abilities.

Duncan is what he is, which is great as long as he is the 3-4th option. DJ still has tremendous upside at the 4 based on his athleticism.

Wagner showed flashes as a freshman of the potential to be a game changer as a sophmore, especially with the reports of his improved athleticim. Donnal is a low risk, solid contributor at the 5, especially as the backup.

Donlon may be a difference maker for this team on the defensive end which would be huge for a team that never struggles to be good to elite on the other end.

It will take a lot of things coming together (things that we  can have reasonable hope will come together) but if it does, this could be a very good team. 

MI fan in MT

October 4th, 2016 at 12:22 PM ^

we had a tournament team last year that nearly went to the second round. We have the core of that team back with some new emerging talent, and we have a couple new assistant coaches, one of which specializes in defense. I'm cautiously optimistic about the team this year. Perhaps not going to with the B1G, but they should be better than they were last year.

In reply to by ijohnb

theytookourjobs

October 4th, 2016 at 12:50 PM ^

We finished 8th in the conference last year.  IMO the only team that got worse over the off-season is Indiana, and maybe Purdue.  I'll "eat a lemon" if we finish in the top 4 of the conference this year

BigBlue02

October 4th, 2016 at 2:05 PM ^

What makes you think MSU will be better than us? Izzo's stellar track record playing true freshmen? Because other than that, they have jack shit. And the McDonalds all American he had last year barely played and got drafted.

AZBlue

October 4th, 2016 at 3:31 PM ^

But almost zero big men on the team after that 5th year transfer just got hurt. I am interested to see how Izzo adapts - State definitely will have more talent on the floor than M this year the question is how they will be able to use it.

BigBlue02

October 4th, 2016 at 8:00 PM ^

Should I trot out the list of talented athletic freshmen that izzo coached horribly and they didn't do anything their first year? Or are we just going to use the one that played well as a freshman and say that is the norm?

WindyCityBlue

October 4th, 2016 at 10:44 PM ^

Perhaps Izzo is not great at utilizing athletic freshmen (neither is JB really).  Then again, I don't think Izzo has ever recruited this well either.  Instead of nitpicking on an Izzo flaw (of which JB is argueably worse that Izzo), look at the big picture.  Do we really stack-up against MSU?

1. Talent:  MSU>>>>Michigan

2. Athleticism: MSU>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Michigan

3. Coaching: MSU>Michigan

4. Experience: Michigan>>MSU

5. Team chemistry: Hard to tell, but I think its probably even

Izzo is not perfect, but he has a far and away better program that we have now.  I wouldn't expect us to really compete with them any time soon.  And you have to give him mad respect for that.  A few years ago, everyone here thought the rivarly finally turned with JB beating Izzo rather consistently and Izzo losing out on key recruits.  Izzo was more or less backed into a corner...but he fought his way out to resurrect a stale basketball program.  I wish JB has that fight.

uncle leo

October 4th, 2016 at 1:51 PM ^

That "Nearly went to the second round" is being used for a team that should be a regular top 15-20. 

They were BARELY a tournament team that had to win a pathetically played game against Tulsa to get in. For the entire regular season, they were so hilariously medicore and bring back basically the same squad.

If there's any reason to be optimistic, it's because they may be healthy and there are some new coaches. Outside of that, I'd be shocked if they made the S16. They just aren't all that talented. 

Say the words "nearly went to the second round" out loud, and you'll see how much better this team needs to get before they even sniff top status.

CorkyCole

October 4th, 2016 at 2:05 PM ^

His point is that it would be stupid to think this team isn't a tournament team and won't be better than last season. Remember Burke's first year we lost the opening round as a 4 seed, so the fact that we pulled off a near nail-biter with Tulsa is still better than that opening round game. AND we nearly beat a very good Notre Dame team (and should have won). So you can see it from both perspectives.

Last year was a failure compared to expectations, but there were still good moments last season. There should be MORE good moments this season at the very least with all five starters back and the one major promising player in Mo being much more improved now that he's broken the age of 17. Mo was exciting to watch last season, and we should be seeing much more of that.

I'm not sure we can face another injury bug this season, however. Injuries will seriously damage this team's success. Have to hope for a good healthy season.

uncle leo

October 4th, 2016 at 2:09 PM ^

Both teams lost in the first round. Trey's first year was so reliant on him to be the man that when he couldn't against Ohio, the team struggled. In the end, it's the same result. 

If there was a great recruiting class to bolster and add to this roster, I'd see the optimism. As it is, there's one good player who's going to play backup to Walton. Other than that, the same product is back, and for anyone who watched a lot last season like I did, the only word I could use is "stale." It was a stale team that didn't do anything well, and now they are back. That's why I'm having a hard time getting motivated to watch them.

CorkyCole

October 4th, 2016 at 2:33 PM ^

The "same product" includes a non-17 Sophomore Mo Wagner, who looks like he has NBA potential (that was the word before he arrived on campus as well). Center was by far the weakest position last year, and combine that with a legit back-up PG, the "same product" will be better barring health. How much better is what I'm curious about.

I completely understand why a ton of fans are pissed about the basketball team. I get it. But Irvin will be closer to himself after his back injury, and I'm really pumped about Mo. Maybe this team is no better than a 6 seed, but it will still be a fun team to watch in my opinion.

If your demands are "champinship or bust" this season, then yes there is a high likelihood of disappointment. I think we just need to see what this team is capable of and go from there. I expect to be better. Show me some defensive improvement with the new staff. Show me better production out of the Center position. Act like you can play ball with the big boys, especially on defense. That's what I want to see. Right now I'd be happy with that six-seed. I just want to see improvement, which I have a hard time not believing there will be.

In reply to by ijohnb

theytookourjobs

October 4th, 2016 at 2:56 PM ^

I really try to get along with you but you are so melodramatic.  Any time anybody has an opinion other than "We are the best at everything and everything is amazing" you act like they are insulting your mother.  It's childish.  We are all fans here (well most of us), but there is nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade.  

ijohnb

October 4th, 2016 at 3:23 PM ^

you are cool but sometimes you are full of absolute jack-shit man.  Your "take" on this has been basically "We will suck! Cuz! Worse than OSU, prolly! Hope I'm wrong!"  One time earlier in this thread I said that somebody was being a little hard on a true freshman, basically calling him a bust before he even played, that's it.  

If you want to talk basketball, understand that there are some people who think we are trending up right now and may be excited about the season.  Find one place in this thread where I said that everything is "amazing."  I said I was hoping for a middling seed and a Top 5 conference finish and am excited about the next couple of classes.  Woah.  Is that "Everything is awesome?"  Am I drinking the Kool Aid?   Take your little tantrum elsewhere man.

theytookourjobs

October 4th, 2016 at 3:29 PM ^

you make my point for me.  How can you honestly say that my take is "that we will basically suck cuz"  That's ridiculous.  I gave several reasons why I don't think this team will be that good this year on almost every post I have made in this thread.  The comical part is that you go on this rant and tell me to "take my tantrum elsewhere."  I have nothing against you.  I never attack you, and when I disagree with you I always give you the reason why.  You just don't seem to be able to handle it when people disagree with you.

ijohnb

October 4th, 2016 at 3:36 PM ^

are you serious?  You are going through this thread on a little troll mission, popping up to randomly disagree with people who make points you don't agree with or just piggy-backing on people who throw out reason why we won't improve.  Nice little "can't argue with the delusional" down there, responding to basically nobody.  That is juvenile and the very definition of melodramatic.  And you don't attack me?  You just did man, that is what I was responding to. You don't think Michigan is going to be good next year.  Everybody hears you loud and clear, but you don't have to be a little pop-up doll in conversations between people who think they might be. 

theytookourjobs

October 4th, 2016 at 3:59 PM ^

the delusional comment was for the kid who says we'll have a great bench and thinks Donnal finishes strong around the rim.  I was trying to think of a nicer word than delusional but couldn't.  I don't care what you think, you don't care what I think.  The point of this board is to discuss things and debate.  I've had enough back and forths with you over the last few months to see that you can't handle disagreements and you are personally offended whenever someone does disagree with you.  It's never been my intent to offend you.  Have a good day

ijohnb

October 4th, 2016 at 4:11 PM ^

work freak, huh.

We have had one other disagreement that I can remember and it died after one back and forth.  I discuss pretty much everything on here with everybody and get along with everybody fine, but I can spot a troll when I see one even if said troll is like "who me?" Your entire goal in this thread has been to offend and obstruct and now you are bitching out when you are called out on it. 

uncle leo

October 4th, 2016 at 2:42 PM ^

Has a LONG way to go before he can be considered an NBA player. Tons of players in their youth have "NBA potential." 

The rest of the team, top to bottom, is the same product. That's not just me speculating, that's what it is. They bring back the same players from a team that in my opinion, probably got a bid they shouldn't have. 

I don't expect them to be a championship team this year. But damnit, the fact that Michigan couldn't capitalize on two incredible years and have completely bottomed out is horrible mismangement program-wide. 

"Six seed, almost made the second round." These quotes seem to be the high-mark for fans, which is really sad.

CorkyCole

October 4th, 2016 at 11:22 PM ^

Our best players were injured the last two years. Who knows what could have been last year with a healthy Lavert (or the year before for that matter). Doesn't fix the center position, but maybe this is the year they surprise some people again. Just give the new staff a shot at making the changes needed to turn this thing around. This is a senior led team, which is known to have a significant impact on college basketball success. I'm just not giving up hope for a successful season before it even starts.

CorkyCole

October 5th, 2016 at 9:05 AM ^

You do realize that both Louisville and UConn won championships with a senior laden team right? Plus Miami had a near final four team in similar fashion. 5* recruits help too, but it will definitely have a positive impact to have a few seniors lead this team. It helps, man. Recent history gives example to that.

WindyCityBlue

October 5th, 2016 at 11:01 AM ^

Do you realize that we were at our best when we are young and talented?

For those 2 years we performed well in the tournament we were one of (if not THE) youngest teams in the tournament. We were also super talented.

I think someone did the analysis on here once and showed that the younger talented teams far far outperform the more experienced senior laden teams in college bball.

CorkyCole

October 5th, 2016 at 9:07 PM ^

Of course talent trumps age. The individual I was replying to made a statement that basically said seniors don't improve the talent on your team. Therefore I provided examples of recent NCAA champions that were led by seniors. I was not saying that young talent can't win championships. I was saying that experience CAN win championships. Not saying this is a championship team, but there is evidence showing that experience does help win games, especially over more talented teams.

ijohnb

October 5th, 2016 at 10:29 AM ^

guess I just don't agree with you that the program has "bottomed out."  I think that is kind of doom-think without a whole lot of basis for it.  A good program never wants to miss the tournament but it happens from time to time.  We lost Mitch before that year, and Walton and Levert were basically hurt that entire season. 

You have a very good point with the misses in that recruiting class, that hurt, from a continuity standpoint.  However, I think the program is doing a good job of picking up the pieces and sorting that out.  There was a little bit of addition by subtraction (unfortunate, but real) this off-season.  The rotation was out of control and clogged.  Bielien teaches intricate offenses techniques and he was having to teach them to too many players, many of them not suited to the system.  But I like our rotation this year, I think it is a manageable group with some experienced talent.  And the following year, we have MAAR and Robinson back, presumably Mo as well, Matthews becomes eligible, Xavier with experience and Poole/Livers coming in.  I am not trying to be overly optimistic, that just seriously does not sound that bad to me, at all.

The reference to State as this kind of shining star of a program is misguided.  State went out in the first round of the tourney last year and lost all kinds of senior talent and Trice the year before that.  Is it possible that they Kentucky the shit out of everybody this year?  Yeah, it is possible.  But it is also possible that Izzo does not have the first clue how to manage that talent.  There is precedent for that just last year with Davis and going all the way back to Zak Randolf and Marcus Taylor.

I am just saying, wait and see a little.  If we come out looking dazed and confused like the last couple of years I will be first one to ackowledge that we are in a mess.  I just don't think that is going to be the case. 

In other words, TL: DR.  ;(