WTKA Roundtable 10/10/2019: The Raw Dog Jim Harbaugh
Things discussed:
- PFF loved Hutchinson but the entire DL. Against two first round OTs it was impressive.
- The one hold on the guy with Kemp wasn't a hold but some of the stuff they let go was insaaaaane.
- NCAA should give Kemp an extra year, right?
- A plan for crossing routes!
- The offense, oy. Solution to QB situation?
- Sam: Harbaugh seeing things in practice that don't happen in the game. Ten-man football.
- Brian: Disagree. More like Michigan's limiting stuff they can do, don't have adaptations to adaptations.
- Borges and Brian agree: Black had to make that block to end the game.
- Sam: Missed explosive run plays is altering our perception. Brian: Michigan not making people wrong.
- Around the league: is PSU going to get Kinnick'd?
- Michigan State can beat Wisconsin? Craig's down for that one.
- Expect John O'Neill crew this week, yay.
[Player after THE JUMP]
You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream on Podbean.
Segment two is here. Section three is here.
THE USUAL LINKS
- Helpful iTunes subscribe link
- General podcast feed link
- Direct download link (right-click/save as)
- What's with the theme music?
We should be Brian's banner ad instead of the dumbass Pitbull thing he had on there.
October 11th, 2019 at 8:46 AM ^
This only got posted this morning so I couldn't get it out till now. Sorry, drive-timers.
October 11th, 2019 at 8:51 AM ^
It’s basically the same crew as last year but the post is out late, so the receivers can’t capitalize which is a drive-killer.
October 11th, 2019 at 9:18 AM ^
Can you pass this constructive criticism on to Feng? He needs to clear his throat before he speaks. He often speaks with a gurgling sound that is VERY distracting.
October 11th, 2019 at 8:48 AM ^
If we can’t avoid O’Neill entirely then I’ll take them for Illinois.
October 11th, 2019 at 8:55 AM ^
This precisely. Give them to me for this game and I’m fine. Mainly as long as it’s not for any game that might be competitive.
October 11th, 2019 at 1:10 PM ^
Why do you not like John O'Neill?
October 11th, 2019 at 1:41 PM ^
O'Neill's crew is so bad they're the only officials in the B1G that are literally famous for it.
We're salty about them for costing us a game against MSU, but FWIW, there is no significant evidence they are actively biased. The best way I can put it is that they're the Neil Breen of football officiating. If there weren't any stakes they'd be amusing in not merely how incompetent they are, but the unbelievable levels of crazy, random, holy WTF levels of it. They don't merely get all sorts of routine calls wrong -- though there's plenty of that -- they'll see things in parallel universes that make you question either their sanity or yours. It's something to behold, on some level. Unfortunately if you do care about the results, which is presumably why most people watch sports, they turn any game into a maddeningly unwatchable shitshow with all the entertainment value of a high schooler's film art project.
October 11th, 2019 at 1:58 PM ^
There were bad calls made both ways in the 2015 MSU game. The key one that went for us was a called TD on the field on a 4th & goal from the 1. Replay didn't quite show Houma was conclusively short, but it looked a lot more likely than him being in.
I haven't listened to the roundtables but I assume Craig brought up O'Neill? It has been a longtime obsession for Mr. Ross now.
October 11th, 2019 at 1:44 PM ^
Because that crew is fucking terrible!
October 11th, 2019 at 9:48 AM ^
Sam echoing Borges sounds a lot like the same crap we heard when he was OC here actually. Yes, he's technically right. If all your guys play perfectly on every play, you'll be successful. But just as Brian harped on then and is harping on here, Michigan isn't doing a good job of making things easier for your guys through scheming, mainly because of the lack of a QB run game whatsoever.
October 11th, 2019 at 10:39 AM ^
Michigan isn't doing a good job ... mainly because of the lack of a QB run game whatsoever.
This ^^^ 1000x!!!
I’ve been saying this over and over. EVERYTHING in this offensive scheme begins with the zone read and the QB keeper. In another thread and OP brought up PSU’s offensive improvement under Moorehead with McSorley at QB but McSorely was a VERY skilled and aggressive runner. Yes, it helped to have Barkley because opposing defenses likely were intent upon stopping the RB give first. But, McSorely made them pay for that and Shea is decidedly not.
Strangely, this was actually a strength of Shea’s game last year I thought. His ball handling was elite and often totally fooled not only the opposition but the camera man, and although not a burner, he’s fast enough and made some great runs. This year he’s only had a handful of keeps and, at least to my understanding of the RPO, it’s totally bogging down the rest of the scheme as that one facet creates the cascade of defensive adjustments that great RPO QB’s exploit with such seeming ease.
For example, watch Hurts at OU. Early in the game he keeps, and because he’s got a threat like a good RB, forces the defense to adjust, then the RB opens up and the keep-pass if they try to cover the RB. I don’t see any of this from Shea, but I see it (albeit not with all-22 view) from the scheme. I saw one play vs Iowa where the keep was blindingly open with a jet action lead block, and he gave. It was so open that the jet WR actually looked back over his shoulder as if surprised that Shea wasn’t behind him because it was 1 on 1 on the perimeter WR vs CB as the DE, LB and S were all crashing. Brilliant call, bad read and resulted in 2-3 yards ... again.
October 11th, 2019 at 10:56 AM ^
EVERYTHING in this offensive scheme begins with the zone read and the QB keeper.
If the QB can't run then they need to run something else. The problem isn't the lack of a QB run game per se; it's that they're running the rest of the offense as if they have one.
October 11th, 2019 at 11:26 AM ^
It doesn’t work that way. They’ve installed an RPO offense. You can’t just say, “run something else” like they’re the NE Patriots with “Playbook #2” sitting there waiting to be used. These guys have 20 hrs. per week to rep this scheme. Michigan made this decision and they’re going to have to keep repping it until everything clicks. If Shea can’t do it and Dylan is hurt, then let Milton rep it live.
October 11th, 2019 at 11:39 AM ^
Exactly. Whoever is the backup QB should get extensive work this week, because he is likely coming in at Penn State in a comeback situation.
October 11th, 2019 at 12:54 PM ^
You can’t just say, “run something else” like they’re the NE Patriots with “Playbook #2” sitting there waiting to be used.
They had time to work on something else. Army didn't invent the 404 and Patterson's issues with zone coverage extend to last year. They stuck to a plan that was never going to work, squandered the bye week, and are now debriding the playbook to prevent total collapse. That's not a case for "they don't have time", it's a complete failure to mitigate on top of the debacle they've brought upon themselves.
And FWIW "run something else" was literally what Michigan did for two years under Fisch. You don't need to run things well, just run things that aren't inherently doomed. No one's asking them to overhaul the offense in a week; that's trying to force a false dilemma into the equation. They have plays in the playbook right now that don't rely on the defense biting on a QB keep they know isn't happening. Build off those if the QB situation is such a disaster that half a Shea is our best option. In which case, what the hell.
October 11th, 2019 at 2:31 PM ^
They stuck to a plan that was never going to work
Never going to work? Can you see the future? This is why fan gripes should be ignored at all costs. Fans love the idea of ditching everything because it’s not working and doing “something different despite not really knowing what that actually might be. Fans love the idea of firing the coach and hiring someone who can do better, despite having no (realistic) idea of who that might be. You speak about mitigation, but you’re completely discounting the fact that (often) the best mitigation is continuous repetition. Fight through the struggles and learn from mistakes.
Inherently doomed? Such hyperbole! Time and time again in games the play is there to be made and Shea isn’t making it. Take, for example, the 2nd offensive play from scrimmage vs Wisconsin. Simple pitch-and-catch slant to Nico, no pressure, over thrown. Next play, fumble. Make the simple play and the complexion of the game might have been different. I’m not saying Michigan would have won, but answering in 2 plays goes a long way for Michigan’s confidence and keeping Wisconsin from take all momentum.
People are calling Gattis a disastrous hire, yet (IMO) he’d be heralded and a genius if the QB were able to execute the fundamental of the scheme in a game situation. It’s just like the first RR year when fans in here were incensed because RR didn’t adapt to his roster. When questioned he said that if you put off installation you’re always installing and development is slowed, not improved. Personally, I think that Shea was benched vs. Wisconsin and if Dylan hadn’t been hurt he’d be the starter right now.
Gattis HAS been calling more non-RPO plays, and is actively trying to get the ball to the non-Bell WR’s like everyone is carping about. But, Shea won’t stay in the pocket, and as many point out, won’t go through his progressions. This is the same M.O. as last year. So they change to a scheme that, on paper, is right in their 5th year QB’s wheel house because he wasn’t great at a more pro style passing attack. But now he’s struggling with the RPO, so do you go BACK to the thing that he struggled with again?!
Again, fans have all the answers. But, Harbaugh & Co. have to continue to develop the scheme for the ENTIRE offense. DMac is hurt, and Milton obviously hasn’t beat out Shea yet, and McNamara is a true freshman. I don’t have an answer except to say that guys that I know who know football at a high level have told me that if Shea were to keep, the offense would take off like a rocket.
October 11th, 2019 at 2:01 PM ^
This is the thing that really really concerns me that I struggle to find evidence to convince myself isn't what happened.
Gattis came in with an offense predicated on the QB as a run threat and repped those plays all fall and spring. But then for some reason, the QB isn't a real run threat so that major part of the offense doesn't work. Why? How was that the plan? Am I really to believe that Shea got hurt on the first play from scrimmage and therefore the offense was screwed? Then when they brought in the back up to run the offense he got hurt within a few plays. And Shea who still can't be asked to run the offense correctly had to come back in? Or did they never intend to run Shea? But if that is the case how was that the plan?
So, now they just do whatever is left over--not well--and hope for the best with this random collection of plays that have been gutted of their driving force?
Because. I'll be damned if that is not what I am seeing.
But I cannot believe that the coaches could have planned so poorly. If this is what actually happened then the "Gattis offense" (which seemingly did not survive the first play from scrimmage) may be great in a good year but will suffer badly in any season where things don't work out optimally.
And I'll be damned if I am going to believe this "just needs to get his guys in" bullshit ever again. That's like believing the answer to your team's struggles is hiring John Gruden.
October 11th, 2019 at 11:24 AM ^
We joke about the difference between Kinnick Iowa and road Iowa, but the difference between road Michigan and home Michigan is just as large. Not enough to make Illinois a game, but at PSU has the makings of a Wisconsin repeat.
October 11th, 2019 at 11:27 AM ^
Road Kinnick always some weird voodoo type stuff. Michigan is just bad on the road, especially against better teams.
October 11th, 2019 at 11:38 AM ^
It’s the visitor’s locker room being painted pink.
October 11th, 2019 at 11:31 AM ^
MSUs offense is SIGNIFICANTLY better than ours. So insanely sad.
October 11th, 2019 at 12:03 PM ^
No it's not. They're one whole spot above Michigan in yard per game with 392.2 (vs our 367.0). Their points per game is 27.8...Michigan is 28.0. Essentially MSU is as good as Michigan on offense...moving the ball in spurts but highly mistake-prone. I think Michigan should be higher for sure given its talent, but they're not anywhere near "significantly worse" than MSU.
October 11th, 2019 at 2:09 PM ^
You can't rely on raw per game stats. SP+ has MSU's offense 1.2 rating points above Michigan. It isn't much difference and both are in the fat middle part of the bell curve, so there is not much difference between them. Michigan gets a bump from the preseason expectations built in so there is probably a slightly bigger gap if you only look at the season stats.
October 11th, 2019 at 2:13 PM ^
Those metrics are both shit. Tempo free is the only way to look at data and MSU is 1.17 yards better per play. I agree it is not "significantly" better but it is embarrassing that it even has to be a conversation.
October 11th, 2019 at 3:07 PM ^
MSU isn’t really learning a new offensive scheme, merely tweaks from what I’ve gathered.
Stop this “embarrassing” meme. It is what it is and will likely improve over the course of this season, into the bowl season, through next year’s spring, and into next season. Not quick enough? Well, sorry, but them’s the breaks.
Remember the incessant uproar here last season over the 1970’s offense? Well, this is a classic, “be careful what you wish for” scenario. On paper, it seemed like a good time with an experienced starting QB coming returning, and whose skill set seemed suited for the RPO. He’s the pivot point. If he were excelling, and being mentioned in the same conversation with Hurts, Gattis would be a genius, the narrative on Harbaugh would be totally different, and Michigan would be a contender. But, to be fair, none of those things actually matter as Michigan still has all its goals in front of it, and there is nothing preventing the offense from becoming elite.
October 11th, 2019 at 4:00 PM ^
I refuse to trash the officiating; so much more fun to trash the coaches! Officials only have an impact for 3.5 hours of the football week. TheM coaches are omniprescent, like God, but with a worse offense.
Also, I'm sick and tired of everyone and their mother/brother/sister/aunt/uncle saying the M offense has no identity. What a cop out. They have an identity, but it can't be revealed because it's in the witness protection program.
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