Mailbag: Slowing Down Offenses, Henry At NT, Smith Vs Green, #1 Jersey, Onside Piracy Comment Count

Brian

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Brian,

As I sit here watching Missouri and Auburn roll up and down the field, with the only defense being turnovers, I'm wondering what can be done to curtail the wave of offense in football so that defenses have a chance again.  Maybe people are fine with all of the offense, but it seems like it is so tough to play defense (get held on nearly every play, called one in 30 times) that I would love to see something to help even things up without drastically changing the game (such as 3 downs instead of 4 or having to go 15 yards for a first down instead of 10, etc.).  I think I figured out a simple change that may help:  with offenses spread out to make one on one match-ups all over the place, what if there is a rule that all of the offensive players have to line up between the numbers?  This wouldn't be such a drastic change and it would allow defenses to be a little less spread out at the snap.

What do you think?

A loyal reader,
Ppudge

Despite the attempt to not seem drastic, that seems kind of drastic. That would affect a lot of teams from spread to, uh, concentrate. And I'm not even sure what the impact would be. If teams just stack two guys up at the numbers is that better or worse? It doesn't seem to have a huge impact. Apologies, but thumbs down.

If we're going to change football to slow down the offenses, my suggestion is to simplify and liberalize pass interference by making it a (nearly) arms-only offense. I can't stand it when a defender gets nailed for the WR trying to run through him; some of these back shoulder things are basically prayer ducks relying on the fact that the DB isn't looking and hoping he'll run over the DB. In the hypothetical world where I am king, whiskey is free and pass interference is a thing that can only happen when a defensive back uses his arms in an unfair fashion or blows a guy up early. No more of this stuff where the DB is running in a direction and the WR changes his path such that the DB is now impeding the WR. You have a right to your momentum. In exchange, offenses can have full NFL penalties for flagrant you-tackled-that-guy offenses.

Not that any of this will do much to slow down Auburn, which just runs and runs and runs and runs. They beat Alabama and their QB threw for 97 yards. They got outgained by 100 yards, but they also ran for 5.7 yards a carry against Alabama. It boggles the mind.

Moving Willie Henry?

Brian,

OK, there are many candidates to play the DT next year, but few candidates to play NT if Pipkins doesn't come back strong after injury. You and others are very high on Henry at DT, but I haven't seen him mentioned at a possible NT. His weight and height look fine, but is there something about his build that makes him not well suited to play the nose?

Rod

Henry is a very plausible NT with his size and strength. Michigan lists him at 6'2", 306, which is about ideal NT size, and we've seen him throw away more than one OL this year. In an ideal world, Pipkins is full-go by late spring and playing well in fall camp, allowing Henry to continue doing his thing at three-tech.

But if that's not happening I bet we do see Henry slide over to the nose. Michigan's other options there are Richard Ash and redshirt freshman Maurice Hurst Jr, which doesn't sound too appealing. At three tech, Strobel, Poggi, and Glasgow are returning and Michigan has the option of bumping either Godin or Wormley down from SDE with Beyer the projected starter there.

A Henry move is 50/50 right now.

[After the JUMP: Smith vs Green, annual #1 jersey speculation, and evaluating a potential onside kick in The Game.]

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Green was getting more PT for a reason. Was that recruiting hype? [Fuller]

Green or Smith?

MGoBlog,

Am I the only one who saw De'Veon Smith as clearly better than Derrick Green?  Smith ran harder, broke more tackles, and was more decisive than Green.  Green was billed as a power back, but rarely did we see that power.  Green had far more opportunities than Smith and never got going.  There are several examples, but his goal line carry against Ohio State was especially soft.

When these two came out, Green was the higher rated player but that seemed to be more based on his size and speed combination than his film. Smith played in Ohio, a higher level of competition than Virginia, and was more productive.  Remember Kevin Grady a few years ago, 5 star recruit, lots of hype.  Remember who played over him all those years?  Mike Hart, 3 star recruit.  I think we have a similar situation on our hands, where the lower rated guy is actually the better player. 

Sincerely,
Jon from Cincinnati

It's hard to tell based on just a handful of carries for each that didn't get snowed under at the snap because of OL/blitz issues. We're basing this on not much more than De'Veon Smith running through a couple of bad tackle attempts from Ohio State and Green not doing so. The jury is still out on both.

That said, I tend to agree. Smith has a Hart-like leg drive that will serve him well in the YAC department and Green does seem to go down on first contact almost all the time. Smith's run through more tackles in fewer opportunities, and if you'll remember that was his calling card as a high schooler. At this point I prefer Smith.

That doesn't mean Kevin Grady should be invoked here, though. Green's already shown better vision and quicker feet than Grady ever did. Green's been able to find backside creases and get to them; Grady just blasted forward every time he got the ball no matter what was in store for him. He's shown some promise and if he can enter fall camp at the same weight he played as  a high school senior, good things could be in the offing there. This kind of offensive line is the worst situation for power backs to be in.

We'll get a more definitive resolution next year when the two figure to platoon for about 90% of Michigan's tailback carries.

Derring-do!

Brian,

Always enjoy reading your game theory bits, but I was wondering about something my friends and I discussed in the stands. Do you think Michigan should have gone for a surprise onside kick after they tied it at 35 with 5 minutes left? I guess it's possible that OSU was expecting it. But the success rate on those tends to be high, we couldn't stop them, and even failure gives you the ball back down 7 with 4 minutes left instead of 2 (plus the same red zone defense opportunities you'd have in either situation).

Or would failure have led to leaving the OSU offense too much time after Michigan potentially tied the game again at 42? I was just curious what you thought since you're always on top of the math on these decisions. Keep up the good work, Go Blue.

Eddie

This did not occur to me at the time but does seem like a pretty good idea. We saw MSU attempt an onside kick in the Big Ten championship game, one of those sideline popups. MSU almost certainly should have recovered it but balls bounce funny and the thing managed to get out of bounds at the OSU 41. In exchange for at least a 50% shot at a bonus possession, MSU gave up 16 yards of field position. That is a quality gamble.

If Michigan had something like that in their back pocket, and chances are they do, that would have been an excellent spot to pull it out. You seize the initiative late on success; on failure you haven't given up much and actually increase your chances of getting the ball back for a final possession. Maybe you give yourself time to try to force a field goal once OSU gets in a goal-to-go situation.

You decrease your chance of holding OSU scoreless, yes, but what were those chances? With both offenses moving up and down the field—especially given OSU's ability to hand it to Hyde for 7 yards whenever they wanted—field position becomes much less important than who's got the ball. I say put on the eyepatch and board that kick return team. Hyyarrr!

Number one.

Brian,

Do you think there's any chance Funchess wears #1 next year? I'm not sure if this has been covered elsewhere. I'd say it's time to bring the jersey out of retirement--and I think Braylon Edwards might agree.

Go Blue,
David Cassleman

It would be tough to change Funchess's number two straight years after he's become a prominent member, especially since he's got a legends jersey. Or at least you'd think so. I thought it would be tough to change Jeremy Gallon's number from 10, or Jordan Kovacs's number from 32. I was incorrect about both of those.

Even if they decide to stop Funchess number rotation they should just hand the damn #1 out now, though. Give it to someone, and stop with the semi-retirement of the thing. Darboh or Chesson or…

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…yeah. For real. I may have an irrational attachment to short guys.

Comments

Space Coyote

December 10th, 2013 at 3:56 PM ^

If you watch the way he works in the backfield, and how smooth he takes cutback lanes, you'll notice it. That's not an area where he needs to improve.

And there are different types of RBs. Yeah, he could improve his balance, but that comes from simply sinking his hips a bit more when running through the hole, that could be learned in the off season. And you don't need to make guys miss. Again, RBs are different. Some get by on making people miss, others get by on making it so defenders don't get square hits. Again, different types of backs and all.

And people are coming to judgements based on a season with a very poor showing from the OL on two true FR RBs. I know RBs tend to come in closer to how they'll end up, but you guys are crazy if you think two true FR RBs are going to show up and look great behind a below average OL.

marti221

December 10th, 2013 at 4:29 PM ^

I just think you do have to have an ability to make people miss. Im not talking about juking dudes out of their shoes every other run. Im talking about subtle, quick cuts that allow the runner to bounce off would-be tacklers. This is what I think, Hyde is SO great at. Quick feet with quick cuts that get the defenders off balance and allow him to drive forward for a few extra yards if he doesn't break the tackle all together. I just dont see this in Green. It may be something that comes to him as the game slows down with experience, but at this point I just haven't seen it. I do agree, he seems to have pretty good vision most of the time though. Not trying to be a Green hating dick at all, and I know you have A LOT more expertise in regards to all things football. Just, like, my opinion..... man.

Space Coyote

December 10th, 2013 at 4:38 PM ^

Now we are talking the same thing (or it's confirmed that I didn't correctly interpret your initial statement). I think Green can become that type of back, and I think that subtle movement is the type of thing you tend to learn with college experience. Most bigger backs don't have that this early because they didn't need it before, because it's subtle and technique driven. But Green has the ability in his footwork, which means he has the ability to do the things Hyde does (not let defenders hit him square, get skinny and pick up feet through the hole, drive feet), but I think those are things that Green needs to work on that aren't necessarily as instinctual as other RB skills. I think people are lumping different skill sets in that "should be pretty good as a FR" category, and I don't think you can.

marti221

December 10th, 2013 at 4:57 PM ^

Ok, that makes sence (and yes I was referring to the subtle cuts in above comments). I do see this ability in some younger backs. However, now that I think about it, it's usually the smaller or at least leaner (?) backs that have this abililty so young. Probably because thats an ability they relied on heavily in high school. Green was probably used to bulldozing and outrunning everyone. Lets hope he does take a big step forward next year and really develope this part of his game, along with keeping his legs pumping, as you stated previously.

Ron Utah

December 10th, 2013 at 4:51 PM ^

Derrick Green has a higher ceiling than Smith, but that doesn't mean anything until he realizes his potential.

Green broke some tackles and made some plays this season, and the posters pretending he didn't are just silly.  Yes, Smith had a Chritian Okoye Tecom Super Bowl run vs. OSU, and he looks like a good player.

But Green could be Carlos Hyde 2.0.  He is big, powerful, and fast.

And you absolutely can teach balance.

The jury is still out, but Green appears more talented while Smith appears to have better leg drive and a good, old-fashioned refusal to go down.

Space Coyote

December 10th, 2013 at 2:54 PM ^

I think Smith is the better short yardage guy and change of pace and Green is the better feature back.

Green still needs to learn how to attack a hole (he tip toes into holes too often) but does have good vision, great feet for his size, and good speed for his size. He needs to work on some things like how to run through his legs, pick up his feet a bit more, etc, but those are things that can be worked on (see: Hyde).

Smith, right now, looks like he's better at attacking a hole and running behind his pads. He can break some tackles and at least churn forward of give himself a shot to push the pile forward. If either back is helped more by at least occasionally getting the second level before tacklers get on him, it's Green, and that's where people will start seeing more of his upside.

The person that said good RBs can run even with a bad OL is completely out of touch with reality. Green is certainly not the type that makes something out of absolutely nothing. What Green is is a RB that can make a lot more than most and more consistently once he gets into the 2nd level or has creases front or back side. He's a Hyde type back (with a bit of growth). Smith is good, I like Smith quite a bit, but right now I think Green is the better feature guy.

WolvinLA2

December 10th, 2013 at 7:27 PM ^

I don't know that the last part is true.  I think the coaches realize that Smith is another good option at RB which is why he's also getting carries, but I don't know that they feel he's the better of the two.  Green was still given more carries, even at the end.  Over the last 3 games, Smith had 15 carries.  Green had double digit carries in each of the last 3 games.  

bighouse22

December 10th, 2013 at 10:04 PM ^

That's 5 yards per carry and that doesn't compute to getting snowed under immediately after contact.  If you are using his ave. w/o his long run as evidence of that, then Green doesn't fare much better.  Using the same site, below is a comparison of their stats with and without their longest runs:

D. Smith 22 carries, 110 yards - 5 yards/carry, long 38 yards

D. Smith (w/o long) 21 carries, 72 yards - 3.4 yards/carry

vs.

D. Green 82 carries, 285 yards - 3.5 yards/carry, long 30 yards

D. Green (w/o long) 81 carries, 255 yards - 3.2 yards/carry

I actually like both backs and am looking forward to see how it shakes out.  I have to admit, I have been impressed with Smith, that doesn't take anything away from Green.  I am looking forward to the development of both.  Ratings sometimes cause a bias in the way the data is interpreted.  Let's just see how it plays out.  I think it is a good problem to have.

I also agree that RBs tend to improve as they get older and the longer they are in the system.  The vision and cut backs get more crisp.  Chris Perry is a back that comes to mind when thinking about a RB that took time to develop.  He did not impress me much until his senior year.

There are outliers that come in and look fantastic right out of the gate, but I don't think that is the norm and I don't see it too often with power backs.  It seems to happen more often with the scat backs that juke and make defenders miss. 

bighouse22

December 10th, 2013 at 10:09 PM ^

I agree that Smith has a high ceiling too.  I don't understand why so many want to undervalue him.  Before we got Green's commitment, I seem to recall quite a bit of excitement about getting such a good back out of OSU's backyard.  The Green hype seems to be devaluing Smith in some of this board's perception.  Don't get so starry eyed and let it play out.

SituationSoap

December 10th, 2013 at 1:30 PM ^

The "Backup QB" syndrome thing is accurate, but thankfully, UM will play both next year, and the players will have the time to prove it on the field. Backup QB syndrome tends to get traction based on the fact that they never actually have to prove they're better; the fans can just imagine that they are. Smith and Green will both get touches next year (a lot of touches) and as a result, if one is clearly better, we'll know.

 

I'm just not worried either way. The better player will win.

Hail-Storm

December 10th, 2013 at 1:54 PM ^

They both were backups with limited touches.  Jon was making an observation that is not hipster in any way.  I like the way Smith runs.  He keeps his legs moving and has shown good balance.  Green has appeared to go down easier then you'd expect when his legs have gotten hit, and didn't show a lot of leg churning YAC. I do agree that Hart/Grady is not an apt comparison.  Both running backs have shown good ball security (something Grady struggled with. 

I think saying this discussion and opinon sucks and is hipster is niether beneficial, nor informed. 

bronxblue

December 10th, 2013 at 1:41 PM ^

I'm not disagreeing that Green may be better, but I have a hard time understanding how anyone else could really point to a couple of carries for either guy and see clear greatness or mediocrity. The line was atrocious in front of them, and when each had their chances they played well enough. Personally, I think Green received miss varies because of his size and, perhaps, as a blocker. But I could definitely see a Cadillac Williams and Ronnie Brown situation, which Borges is fairly comfortable with.

MattPat

December 10th, 2013 at 2:02 PM ^

I would understand your disposition if it were Thomas Rawls or Justice Hayes that Jon From Cincinnati were praising over Green, but the two (Smith and Green) have BOTH worked their way into meaningful snaps, so to claim "backup QB syndrome" really doesn't carry much merit. Also, once players put on the winged helmet is doesn't matter what type of competition you had in high school. Players play, and it's clear that while Green may have a higher ceiling, Smith is a more physical runner with a much more apparent nastiness in him. So pump the breaks on your "loathing" of speculation on which freshman back is currently better.

Monocle Smile

December 10th, 2013 at 2:09 PM ^

mostly stems from the fact that the De'Veon Smith lovefest and the perceived bear market on Green isn't new. It's been blathered about on the board for about a year. Currently, there are no more conclusions to draw concerning this topic than there were then, but people are already in "I loved De'Veon Smith before it was cool" mode.

Also, it was Jon from Cincinnati that brought up high school competition. I just find it humorous when people bring up irrelevant points and are then totally wrong on those points anyway.

lboss

December 10th, 2013 at 6:28 PM ^

If You watch close De'veon smith is a monster that needs to be unleash 22carries 150yds 5ypc longest run of the year 38 not to mention it was the longest run Ohio state gave up all year. green was suppose to be the real deal since he got a number 1 ranking but its all was just hype he clearly is no number1 RB in the country period. Green looks soft.. deveon runs harder and has better vision turn on the ohio state/ northwestern flim and look for yourself. IMO green is the number two back not De'veon. green got the job handed to him he didn't work for the starting spot fitz was trash all year they should of been playing smith. I find it odd that the games smith runs the ball Ohio state/ northwestern the o-line looks good but when green/fits ran the o-line look bad. I'm telling next year if Michigan does what I think smith will be big man on campus .Green was giving ever opportunity to take over the position but it failed he's no Carlos hyde.

 

Rather be on BA

December 11th, 2013 at 9:42 AM ^

I know that this is not a ground-breaking opinion or anything, but I think Green would do really well to drop 5-10 more pounds.  Having all that excess upper body weight can certainly affect balance (harder to keep your upper body over your base of support with more momentum).  Also, I would argue that power tends to be compromised after a certain weight.  He was playing at around 220 in high school, and played this season at 230+.  At 5'11", 220 is a great weight.  Derrick did not need to add any freshman weight, simply get stronger and quicker.  If Green slims down a bit this off-season I think we could see a completely different player (not that I am all that down on him to begin with).

I like Smith as well, and despite Borges' call for a feature back, I don't buy into that being completely necessary.  65-35, or 70-30 splits in carries work just fine IMO.

Go Blue in MN

December 10th, 2013 at 1:18 PM ^

it would be interesting to know how often teams successfully recover non-desperation onsides kicks.  That would require some exercise in judgment to determine what qualifies as a "desperation" attempt (when obviously the chances are lower because you don't have the element of surprise and the receiving team puts its good hands players up front).  I would think this would be vitally important information for coaches and would expect  if someone hasn't looked into the probabilities of this.  I'd be very surprised if the chances were "at least 50%," because then wouldn't we see onside kicks become regular occurrences, especially in high-scoring games like M v. OSU?

aplatypus

December 10th, 2013 at 1:38 PM ^

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2011/01/so_crazy_it_just_might_work.html

From a couple years ago, but when the game was still mostly close, surprise onside kicks worked about 60% of the time. 

 

You'd think logically we'd see more, but for one doing more would make them less of a surprise because once a team does it other teams are more likely to expect it to a degree, but 2 coaches are inherently illogical when it comes to statistics. Most are still in the old fashioned mentality of risk prevention being greater than reward possibility. There are a bunch of psych studies done on this idea, and I think it's got a more proper name than that. 

Bill Barnwell at Grantland also rants about these things a lot; one of his main arguments in blame pushing. This probably applies a lot in college (execution..), but the idea is if a coach calls something like that and it backfires it's totally his fault even if it mathematically was a good call BUT if he goes with the safe, norm, and it doesn't work still then the coach can blame his players. 

Go Blue in MN

December 10th, 2013 at 1:48 PM ^

I am very surprised the recovery rate is that high.  Sure, maybe you don't want to put other teams on notice by using it against a meh team (although we lost and almost lost to several of those teams this year), but why not in The Game, particularly when field position is proving to not be a big deal?  You may be on to something with the "blame pushing" thing, although in Hoke's case, you could say the same thing about the 2 point conversation and he went for the jugular there.