Numbness to GameDay misogyny

Submitted by 950_Blue on

While at a bar watching Gameday before the Cincinnati game, a female friend of mine commented on the requisite 'Ann Arbor is a whore' sign bobbing up and down in the background. As an 18 year old freshman male, I must confess I found these signs and t-shirts fairly funny, and figured Michigan must be doing something right to get so much attention. In turn, I bought a few of my own that jabbed at the usual suspects while en route to Michigan Stadium and Crisler, and was easily acculturated to yelling about how it was 'all their fault' at Yost.

As a 36 year old, I'm ashamed to say the misogynistic quality of that sign, though similar to several others each week televised on national television, was still lost on me. Male sporting events are no doubt a remaining bastion for easy bigotry and sexism, but they can also be a place for Michigan to lead by example. These signs, t-shirts, and chants aren't ironic, they're not witty, and here's hoping the next generation of Michigan Men and Women uphold a more advanced sense of social awareness than mine did. Perhaps we can listen more closely to the lyrics of another common ritual at every game and show how we really are the Leaders and Best.

ijohnb

September 11th, 2017 at 4:13 PM ^

is just really troubling and frustrating because what he is purporting to actively oppose is actually is a "version" of fascism, however, he does not see where his position jumps right off the rails and becomes almost identical to that for which he expresses such derision. 

PapabearBlue

September 11th, 2017 at 3:19 PM ^

Dude literally just outed himself as a full blown sexist and racist.

"That's the thing. All men have sexist behaviors. All white people have racist behaviors. It's a reality. "

He goes on to talk about how white people and men are incapable of escaping certain behaviors because of their gender or the color of their skin.

Fab and Fresh

September 11th, 2017 at 10:15 PM ^

That's insane. He was so completely respectable throughout the whole conversation. You just can't handle somebody else who has a differing and (seemingly painfully) more valid viewpoint than your own.

But you're like, so egocentric that you like, can't even detect when that's the case, man.



Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad

Space Bat

September 11th, 2017 at 11:54 AM ^

Papabearblue, your logic dictates that we shouldn't pay any special attention to the people to which the thing is happening... Let's apply that to another situation. Football players are concerned about concussions. Your logic: 1. Football players say that everyone will deny that concussions are a problem. 2. Football players claim their experience playing football and getting concussions gives them special and revelvant knowledge about the situation, which I, Papabearblue, find ridiculous. As a person who has neither played football nor gotten a concussion, I feel that I know just as much and they can't have any more insights than I could have. That is so ridiculous. If you are not a woman , you do not understand what it feels like to be a woman. You do not go through the same things that women go through on a daily basis. The fact that you are dismissing this outright shows that you have not thought about this in any critical way. This is not to say that women are always right or we (Men) are automatically the bad guys. Instead of arguing in a completely non rational non logical way, how about you just think for a second and try to put yourself in someone else's shoes, realizing that maybe, just maybe, not everyone is trying to lie or gain sympathy just because they can. Rather, there are real problems that effect real people and we need to address them in a constructive way.

PapabearBlue

September 11th, 2017 at 12:07 PM ^

The only thing that should get special attention is facts and they don't give a shit what gender you are or whether or not you are "oppressing or oppressed". Claiming otherwise is identity politics and just an excuse to silence people that don't agree with you.

Space Bat

September 11th, 2017 at 12:25 PM ^

Papabearblue, I'm not talking about gender. Gender and sex are different things. Sex is male or female. Gender is the socially constructed identities of masculine and feminine traits. That there are men and women is a fact. That women experience more sexism than men is a fact. That men don't have to ever think about the stuff women go through on a daily basis is a fact. I can give plenty of examples, and I'm sure women can give countless more. Here's an idea, how about you ask a woman what she thinks about the difference in how she is treated in life and how she sees men being treated in life. Better yet, how about you ask multiple women. How about when they are talking to you about this, you listen instead of dismissing them out of hand. You are the one who isn't dealing with facts. You're dealing with being a man who has been lucky enough to have never contemplated or come to understand the difference between how men are treated by men, and how women are treated by men.

PapabearBlue

September 11th, 2017 at 12:36 PM ^

1) I don't disagree with anything in your first paragraph and it has literally nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

2) Fuck you for having literally no idea what my life is like. I went through a military program in which I watch women who were barely capable of performing their jobs get promoted over men who were excellent at their jobs merely because they were women and fit a literal existing quota for advancement.

Space Bat

September 11th, 2017 at 1:17 PM ^

"literally has nothing to do with the discussion at hand" 

Actually it has everything to do with the discussion at hand. You keep avoiding my critiques of your faulty logic. You ignored my entire critique of how terrible your initial logic was, and now you're completely changing the subject. 

Let me once again throw your bogus logic back at you once again, using your own situation: 

1) You claim that women are getting promoted over men who are more qualified, and that for some reason justifies the vitriol with which you push back against any claim of sexism.

2) You claim that your experience here, as a person in a military program, gives you special relevant knowledge about the situation that no one else could possibly have or have a different take on.

 

 

Look, arguments aside, I understand that from your point of view, it can't seem right for unqualified women to be promoted over qualified men, and if that were the case, in a perfect world, I would be with you in agreeing that it is wrong. The fact of the matter is that you are ignoring the entire history of our society, as well as countless things that go on on a daily basis, to gripe about this experience you had.

 

You said in this very thread you are the exact opposite of a snowflake. You sure do sound like one here. You're saying that you're special, and your special take from your special experience proves definitively you are right. You are engaging in the very same behavior that you loathe. 

PapabearBlue

September 11th, 2017 at 1:24 PM ^

Your entire first paragraph argument was about how women experience more sexism than men. I never once argued otherwise, I was arguing that being a woman doesnt give some sort of special ability to discern facts. Your first paragraph didn't talk about my argument at all. So yeah, still literally nothing to do with my argument.

I'm not avoiding a critique of my logic, your critique of my logic isn't based in the facts of my statements. You just made up some random logic about my statements that weren't based off of what I was actually saying. To put it short, you put words in my mouth, i'm not going to justify that with a response.

The point of me posting about my military experience wasn't to excuse non-existent vitriol. There is no vitrol. You told me that I've never had to experience or deal with sexism, I'm stating factual circumstances of be having experienced sexism. It's not that it gives me special insight to factually determine what is sexism, it's that I experienced what everyone here would actually agree is factually sexism. A woman serving next to me would be just as capable of determining that as sexist, and just as you said, you are too. 

You're doing a lot of logic-twisting and putting a lot of words in my mouth.

Space Bat

September 11th, 2017 at 2:02 PM ^

"You told me that I've never had to experience or deal with sexism"

 

Give me the quote of where I said exactly that. I'll save you the time, I didn't. I never said you've never had to experience or deal with sexism. It's a matter of degrees. The degree to which women experience sexism is greater than what men experience, and what you have experienced. I'm really sorry that you experienced sexism in the military. That's one instance in your life. You seem to be really upset over it, since you're commenting and replying up and down this thread to me and a ton of other people. 

Imagine how upset one would be if they not only experienced sexism once in their life, but daily. I'm not saying that this is the only time you've experienced sexism, but you have to come to grips with the fact that you're mad that you experienced injustice, but yet on the other hand not seeing what the big deal is when a woman wants to let her thoughts be known in regard to sexism she has experienced. You dismissed it, and that was wrong. 

As far as your logic, I put no words in your mouth. I originally used the hypothetical of substituting football players in for women in your logical system, showing how ridiculous it was and is. That stands alone. If you can't see the failings of how you used logic in that situation, then I really can't help. 

 

I'll leave it at this, I am honestly sorry that you experienced sexism in the military, and I am sorry if I've come across as an asshole in my replies. I'm done replying to this thread as it's getting too bogged down, but if you would actually like to continue the conversation, I'll leave my email address here: [email protected] I think perhaps in a different medium this dialougue might be more fruitful. 

PapabearBlue

September 11th, 2017 at 2:51 PM ^

1) You're right, you did never say that. After rereading I misinterpreted and misquoted what you said. What you said was that I'll never know the difference of being treated as a man by men vs being treated as a man by women. If you are suggesting that I'll never know what it was like to be a woman then yes, you are right, I was literally never arguing against this. I just misinterpreted what you were saying as a suggestion that I've never seen a man treat a woman better than a man because of gender, which I was providing proof of otherwise. Simple miscommunication.

2) I'm not mad about the sexism i witnessed. I actually wasn't passed up, I just saw it happen. What irks me is that there were actual episodes of misandry in this topic, which is a common issue within these discussions. The amount of baseless "truths" and "facts" in these discussion run rampant and I don't think that it's generally healthy for anyone.

3) I've only replied so many times because what was a few base comments that I posted on here garnered a lot of responses. I feel absolutely justified in arguing my stance. It's not a matter of "being really upset about it", it's a matter of holding my position. I do it with everything, you just happen to be witnessing it here.

4) You actually are putting a lot of words in my mouth, i never said I was passed up, I never said I was mad about it. I've never even posted a mad thing on here. Anything contrary to number 4 is people projecting or interpreting beyond what was actually stated. IE, the assumption that if I'm arguing something isn't sexist that I'm in fact sexist or mad about sexism. Which is blatantly untrue and part of hte reason why I find number 2 and 3 to be relatively important.

JamesBondHerpesMeds

September 11th, 2017 at 2:34 PM ^

"I went through a military program in which I watch women who were barely capable of performing their jobs get promoted over men who were excellent at their jobs merely because they were women and fit a literal existing quota for advancement."

I've lived in a society in which totally underqualified men have been promoted over more qualified women literally hundreds of thousands of times.

Your experience cannot be denied, but let's not presume that this is the rule rather than the exception.

PapabearBlue

September 11th, 2017 at 5:07 PM ^

I'm absolutely not and never once did I say that. I was told that I as a man have never had to know the difference of what it was like to be treated as a man by men versus what it's like to be treated by men as a woman. In which I simply had to respond that I know what it's like to have a man pass up men on a job because they werent a woman. It wasn't a justification, it was just a counter argument to being told that I've never experienced a part of life that I actually have.

BananaRepublic

September 11th, 2017 at 1:07 PM ^

I would counter that those football players would definitely be able to contribute to the concussion/cte conversation in a valuable way, but they would not be the only people with something helpful to add.  I don't think Papabearblue would tell the players that they are unable to participate in the conversation and add a valuable perspective to it, but rather that we should listen to players, researchers, parents of young players, psychologists, sociologists, and any other person who is able to create a reasonable argument that can be supported or undermined by real evidence.

BananaRepublic

September 11th, 2017 at 1:58 PM ^

I would counter that those football players would definitely be able to contribute to the concussion/cte conversation in a valuable way, but they would not be the only people with something helpful to add.  I don't think Papabearblue would tell the players that they are unable to participate in the conversation and add a valuable perspective to it, but rather that we should listen to players, researchers, parents of young players, psychologists, sociologists, and any other person who is able to create a reasonable argument that can be supported or undermined by real evidence.

Bobby Thomson

September 11th, 2017 at 8:31 AM ^

because she is a woman, she had the right to tell us about her experience as a woman. you have a lot more to gain by suspending disbelief and actually listening to someone than by immediately assuming your experience and interpretation is correct. repeat after me, "gaslighting people who experience prejudice perpetrates prejudice."

PapabearBlue

September 11th, 2017 at 10:10 AM ^

Why would her experience on this site be any different because her sex organs are different? That's the issue I'm pointing out. Either the misogyny is there or it isn't and her being a woman doesn't give her any sort of special ability to identify those situations. To suggest that the board is full of misogyny but that everyone here will either lie about it or straight up be wrong about it because we're all men is about as sexist as it gets.

BlueBulls

September 11th, 2017 at 10:46 AM ^

"Why would her experience on this site be any different because her sex organs are different?"

It's not her "sex organs," it's her experience in society as a woman that gives her different insight compared to a man.

To deny that is to deny that anyone's experience and ability to be sensitive to different topics can change because of one's gender, skin color, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

PapabearBlue

September 11th, 2017 at 11:38 AM ^

Either the misogyny exists or it doesn't. The fact of misogyny existing or not existing has absolutely nothing to do with her being a woman. I'm not saying she isn't capable of being more sensitive to it, I'm saying that she isn't any more or less of an authority of factual situations of its existence because of it.

LSA91

September 11th, 2017 at 12:04 PM ^

The original statements are

1) The MGoBlog forum "is full of misogynists"

2) "Everyone will jump to deny it"

3) "The misogyny is pretty bad here"

I think it would probably be most constructive to talk about how to reduce misogyny. I'm all for that, but I'm not sure what I should be doing differently.

BananaRepublic

September 11th, 2017 at 1:11 PM ^

I think the first real constructive thing to do would be to identify real examples of misogyny. The shirts are an example, but I don't think anyone who would actually wear those shirts would be on this blog or want to participate in this conversation. I would agree that calling a large group of people bigoted if they don't agree with you is not a great way to open a conversation.

LSA91

September 11th, 2017 at 1:20 PM ^

I don't doubt the original poster - there are plenty of tools on any internet board, and I'm sure even the best meaning posters manage to carelessly or thoughfully say some offensive things. But it's hard to up your game without specifics.

ats

September 11th, 2017 at 3:47 PM ^

Or I don't know, maybe actually review the definition of Misogyny?  Misogyny != sexism.  Misogyny is the quite literal hatred of women.  If the original statement was that there was sexism on the site, it would get a small fraction of the push back, because sexism is an entirely different thing than Misogyny.  Words matter and definitions of words matter, substituting Misogyny (or Misandry) for sexism is not a simple matter as they mean and imply very different things.

PapabearBlue

September 11th, 2017 at 10:01 AM ^

This board is full of misogynists. Ok, so we've established that she thinks theres a ton of a misogynists to the point of being "full".

But that we'll deny it, so we either must be wrong about what we think misogyny is OR be lying about it.

And as a woman she is especially capable of attesting to it.

Pray tell, what the fuck was she trying to say if what she was saying wasn't exactly what she was trying to say?

BananaRepublic

September 11th, 2017 at 12:13 PM ^

i don't completely agree with every single one of them, but you're being relatively respectful. the fact that people are trying to ban hammer you instead of producing a coherent counter argument that goes beyond an ad hominem attack on your genitalia is pretty telling.

ScooterTooter

September 11th, 2017 at 6:01 AM ^

Whoa, so men are acting like men on a sports message board? 

Seriously, on the rare occasions I've been the lone dude hanging out with my wife's friends, I've never asked them to conform their conversations to my whims. I don't know why women expect men to do the same for them. 

P.S. I'm also banking on the fact that the "misogyny" you speak of is the most basic first world type of problem you could possibly complain about. Unless someone has seriously directly threatenend you or your family in such a manner on this board, I feel safe rolling my eyes at your post. 

901 P

September 11th, 2017 at 8:35 AM ^

I'm not a big fan of dismissing a complaint like this as a "first world problem." It seems like a legitimate gripe to me. And frankly, we are on a college football board where we complain about things like a QB who tends to sail his passes, a site that occasionally crashes, and a basketball coach who has trouble landing the highest-ranked recruit. 

ScooterTooter

September 11th, 2017 at 10:09 AM ^

I can't imagine living in this fantasy world where someone actually believes that (most) men act  and speak the same if they are around just men or in the mixed company of men and women. 

It'd be like saying you believe that high schoolers act and speak the same way around their parents as they do their friends. 

Brodie

September 11th, 2017 at 2:54 PM ^

I've been a man for ~30 years and have no idea what MAN TALK is. I presume it's BEER AND THE GAME AND THE KNOCKERS ON THAT ONE, EH... which is not how I talk around anyone, tbh. 

Women are just other humans. They are not different to me or anyone else and I do not need to modulate my behavior around any other person. That you feel the need to suggests something about you and the things you think are appropriate to discuss as MAN TALK. Mainly, it suggests you understand that it would be offensive to women, which should really be all you need to know to not talk that way, period. 

sharklover

September 11th, 2017 at 3:11 PM ^

Yes, high schoolers, and pretty much all social groups engage in code switching, to some extent or another, depending on to whom they are talking or with whom they are interacting. In some ways this is a social coping mechanism that is essential to functioning in a human society.

But to suggest that it is somehow okay to belong to a peer group that acts in a blatently misogynistic way, and to celebrate that culture, rather than actively acting to change it, or at least acknowledging the fact that such behavior is flawed, is absolutely absurd. 

Just because some men disparage women and act like jerks toward women when they think they can get away with it doesn't mean that this is an acceptable or productive form of behavior.

One certainly need not accept misogyny or other forms of bigorty as a logical result of the observation that people interact differently in different social situations depending on who is in the room.

UMForLife

September 11th, 2017 at 6:25 AM ^

Full of misogynists??? WoW. That is pretty strong. You are judging people based on random posts. I have seen many good posts talking about their family and things they do with their family. Sorry you feel this way but I am not sure you will find enough posts to justify your assertion that the board of full of it. I am disappointed.

evenyoubrutus

September 11th, 2017 at 6:48 AM ^

Yeah "full" is a strong word in this context, and basically suggests that every male here is a sexist pig, so I really, really hope that what she meant is "there are quite a few who act like assholes but the majority seem like decent fellows." If that's what she meant I would agree with that statement.