Interesting convo I had with a prominant Chicago HS basketball coach
So, I had the opportunity to speak with a Chicago HS basketball luminary in a casual situation earlier today. I won't drop his name at this point, but he coached some of Chicago's best talent over the past 30 years at a couple well known Chicago high schools. He apparently just retired this year. I asked some very pointed questions about basketball topics, specifically regarding college recruiting, and he (thankfully) did not hold back on giving me some very candid and real answers. Thought I would share with the board:
1. College bball recruiting is extremely dirty (duh!)
2. While he thinks the NCAA does their best to monitor this, he seems to believe that college coaches are much smarter and can "stay ahead" of the NCAA. He says there are very sophisticated ways to pay players and their families without suspicion.
3. Coach K - dirty as hell (I was kinda surprised by this)
4. Coach Cal - dirty as hell (duh!)
5. Coach Pitino - dirty as hell (duh!)
5. Izzo - sends his assitants to do his dirty work. He says he was offered money from Dwayne Stephens on several recent occasions for particular recruits (although I don't know if he actually accepted the money). He thinks that Izzo is not as bad as others though. Izzo has a lot of respect in Chicago and is not normally known for playing dirty. However, his people told him that Izzo's recent recruting success is no doubt from some "below the belt" tactics.
6. The Jabari Parker recruitment was surprising clean on a relative scale.
7. As for Michigan/JB - clean, very clean, but too clean. Most promimant Chicago HS coaches stay away from Michigan because Michigan won't be part of the "recruiting machine" in Chicago. They think JB is a good coach but teaches "white boy" basketball. He basically says Michigan/JB has no respect in Chicago anymore.
I mentioned I was a Michigan fan and talked some more about our program. He has tons of respect for us becasue he had lots of interaction with Michigan many years ago. Back in the 90s, Michigan was THE school for Chicago's best talent. He says we were not a clean program then, but he says that no one was and Michigan was no different than any other major program. He seems to think we have little to no chance with big time recruits in any major city without getting a little dirty.
He had some funny things to say about Amaker, but I'll save for later.
Anyway, thought I would share with the board. What are your thoughts? Would you be OK with getting a little dirty to get better recruits? Are you OK with being a super clean program now that can't consistent compete on the big stage?
December 28th, 2015 at 6:50 AM ^
and the Celtics. . .
December 28th, 2015 at 8:32 AM ^
But "We 100"?
December 27th, 2015 at 9:23 PM ^
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December 27th, 2015 at 9:38 PM ^
I am also happy to hear that Michigan is clean. In addition, I am happy to hear that my suspicions about Coach K being dirty and Izzo turning dirty during this recruiting cycle are both true. I have mentioned all of these things here in the last year or so, especially when someone whines that Beilein "can't recruit elite players."
December 27th, 2015 at 9:59 PM ^
I'm OK with that, too.
+++
I was a little surprised that there was no mention of Bill Self and Kansas. People can "TRADITION!!!" all they want, but he has pulled a surprising number of guys from Chicago and environs. Hard to believe it's all clean ...
Oh, and if Coach K ever gets dragged through the mud, I'll buy a round for the entire MGoBlog readership. That would be a very happy day.
December 27th, 2015 at 11:14 PM ^
Agree that he probably isn't clean, but he used to be the head coach at Illinois. I'm guessing he developed a lot of Chicago connections then.
December 28th, 2015 at 12:29 AM ^
If Michigan has no respect in Chicago, then I wonder what this coach thinks of Groce at Illinois.
Talk about a program that can't seem to do anything right atm when it comes to recruiting your backyard. Sheesh.
December 28th, 2015 at 9:49 AM ^
I doubt this. One of Groce's biggest cricitisms is his ineffectiveness of recruiting Chicago.
January 22nd, 2016 at 1:28 AM ^
...that's code for "the program's too clean and we need to get someone in here that does it the right way." I don't think I've ever met an Illinois fan that wasn't fully aware of how the game is played there--there's a factional fight, has been for decades, over whether to play it.
I was there (briefly) in the Henson days and the dirty faction was firmly in control. The pendulum seems to have swung the other way after Self left.
December 28th, 2015 at 12:56 PM ^
be out of state recruiting.
December 28th, 2015 at 12:35 AM ^
December 27th, 2015 at 10:26 PM ^
Let's define "dirty" a little bit. Are we talking about actually paying players/player's family $$$ or accepting cars, houses, strippers, academic infractions, etc...? Could this coach pinpoint actual events that would constitute violations or he just didn't respect those programs?
I don't mind calling other programs/coaches dirty but let's bring some background to the discussion.
December 27th, 2015 at 10:33 PM ^
...we didn't get into anything else (i.e. strippers, houses, etc.). Meaning that if you weren't willing to provide some cash to a recruit, you weren't going to get a lot of attention (i.e. respect) from top end recruits.
January 22nd, 2016 at 1:34 AM ^
...at least at certain CPS schools, was that you had to be willing to provide some cash to the recruit's coach for access before you even had the chance to do business with the recruit himself. Any discussion of that sort of thing?
December 27th, 2015 at 9:23 PM ^
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December 27th, 2015 at 9:24 PM ^
December 27th, 2015 at 9:32 PM ^
...we don't "contunally" compete for the B1G championship every season.
December 27th, 2015 at 9:44 PM ^
3 out of the last 4 years is close enough for me; considering last year was railroaded due to injuries.
December 27th, 2015 at 10:17 PM ^
...but that's just me.
December 27th, 2015 at 11:34 PM ^
December 27th, 2015 at 11:48 PM ^
...mkay?
December 28th, 2015 at 4:08 AM ^
December 27th, 2015 at 11:54 PM ^
I don't follow.
In the last four years, we've had a reasonably healthy roster* in three of them. In those three years, we achieved banner-worthy accomplishments. How is that "selection bias"?
*If we forget about Mitch McGary's injury in 2013-14
December 28th, 2015 at 12:31 AM ^
...that make your point valid. If you want to be objective about this, then you must look at the years before then. Doing so, you will see that we don't continually compete for big ten championships, we do so occasionally.
December 28th, 2015 at 1:00 AM ^
When you consider where we were when Beilein arrived, it shouldn't be that surprising that we didn't raise any banners from 2008-11. We hadn't won the league in over 20 years and hadn't even made the tournament in a decade. I really don't think those years can be held against him. Actually, I thought 2010-11 was perhaps his best coaching job at Michigan, turning an 11-9 team into an NCAA tournament squad that destroyed Tennessee and nearly knocked off a #1 seed.
Keep in mind: for 3.5 seasons (from the 2011 MSU road game through the end of the 2014 season) we had the best record in the league.
December 28th, 2015 at 1:45 AM ^
...I'm simply taking his entire record and looking at it objectively. There are lots of reasons, excuses, etc. for why things happen. But regardless of those factors, we don't continually compete for big ten championships by any objective measure.
I think its great that we had the best record in the league for 3.5 years, but why are you picking a half year to prove your point? It seems arbitrary to do so (why not use the whole year, or 1/3 of the year, etc?). That's selection bias. Its Ok to that, not knocking you.
December 28th, 2015 at 10:07 AM ^
December 28th, 2015 at 12:25 PM ^
...I'll take our record over the past 1.3 years and use that as a proxy for the state of our program, and by doing so I could say we are a shit program*. This is selection bias. Your reaction would be "why are you selecting those years?! Those years don't take into account the successful years before that!. The past 1.3 years don't give a full picture of who we are"
My point is instead of arbitrarily picking a 3.5 year period (as the past poster did), I rather use a larger more representive sample to make an objective measure of our program. And, as several of my other posts state, I'm glad we are a clean program, even with its performance consequences - I don't want UM/JB to be dirty.
*I don't really think this, just using an example
December 28th, 2015 at 3:42 PM ^
year 1 under beilein was bad. understandable. he just took over the program. he has since made the ncaa tourny 5 of the past 7 years; including a runner-up and elite 8 appearance and 2 BIG titles. we missed the tourny last year due to injuries to our 2 best players. there is no selection bias.
this team will make the tourny this year barring any significant injuries. and this team and the teams going forward will finally be experienced (ie. majority of minutes coming from upper classmen). this team is set to compete well for years to come right now. and if we can get another guy (other than caris) to blow up, the team will contend for BIG titles and deep ncaa runs.
December 27th, 2015 at 9:48 PM ^
December 27th, 2015 at 9:56 PM ^
December 27th, 2015 at 10:19 PM ^
bottom of the big ten? per rivals:
2012 - #7 overall, #2 in BIG (mcgary, griii, stauskus)
2013 - #11 overall, #2 in BIG (irvin, walton)
2014 - #26 overall, #3 in BIG (chatman, wilson, doyle, dawkins, maar)
2015 - NR, but robinson and wagner are better than bottom-feeder BIG talent.
December 27th, 2015 at 10:19 PM ^
want money now. They won't gamble on their son or daughter getting a top notch degree or going pro in sports. Winter is cold, the propane tanks need to be filled and the food needs to be on the table. So the bag men win again and again.
December 27th, 2015 at 9:49 PM ^
December 27th, 2015 at 9:24 PM ^
"If you cheat to win, you've already lost", Jim Harbaugh.
December 27th, 2015 at 10:29 PM ^
December 27th, 2015 at 11:28 PM ^
And I know their hookers & bagmen tell them they're winners too, FWW...
It's really all a matter of what kind of winner YOU wanna be?
December 27th, 2015 at 11:57 PM ^
I dunno. Being a national champion sounds alright
December 28th, 2015 at 8:14 AM ^
December 28th, 2015 at 11:48 AM ^
I'm just pointing out that all these platitudes that are being spoken above don't change the fact that the cheaters are winning. This isn't a cool 80's movie where the bad guy is foiled. All these cheaters are getting their national titles and their millions and they'll never be caught. I doubt Pitino lays in bed thinking about how he's winning 'the wrong way'. The skeezeballs are winning
January 22nd, 2016 at 1:41 AM ^
Pitino's lying in bed thinking "when the hell is that Rutgers game so we can finally win one?"
December 28th, 2015 at 2:43 PM ^
Why not root for a national championship team like Kentucky, then? You can have your wish, and we can have ours.